Hoplite/Phalanx optimization

[Dudar]

Hi everyone,

Got back to playing RTW. Was a huge fan of RTR, now decided to try EB.
Excellent mod, however many people find the classic hoplite fighting style weird (too loose formation - more like ordinary spearmen)

I have tested "short_pike" approach to hoplites and didnt like it. From my experience it makes two units with this ability clash and push on till they literally face each other. so as they wield spears if two one rank units fight they cannot kill each other because their spear can only hit the third row enemy. Was quite funny to watch though.

I just tested and found excellent solution (maybe you already aware of that but worth mentioning just in case). in the following line:

soldier roman_infantry_triariiearly, 40, 0, 1.22, 0.2

last number represents units radius - i.e. defines the distance between soldiers in the unit when actively engaged in combat. Default value is 0.4 (if missing!), which makes spearmen spread around the field. I tested the setting 0.2 on triarii unit and these guys looked pretty much like classical hoplites! they stayed together and fought
like a solid block, and when divided and surrounded they actually fought back to back. I was impressed by this simply tweak. Again, the only setting i CHANGED IS UNIT RADIUS - no other stats modified so unit balance developed by EB team is maintained.

SO calling to all modders with spare time on their hands - if you could apply this change to all the classical hoplites in the EDU (and units fought as hoplites), it would be great. Unfortunately I dont have time for that.

Another idea - the tightness of formation could represent how trained the soldiers are, so levy hoplites would be about 0.33, down to 0.22 or something for pro soldiers (triarii, spartans etc.).

Cheers

[Capital]

Very interesting, Im using the phalanx mod right now, and have noticed a few bad animations, units tend to look off in the distance not paying attention to the front (facing wrong direction), I think you're totally right... So what is the work to be done here, just a lot of redundant changing of certain units, because IMHO some units fight too close together, anybody remember the gladiator or peasant formations...

I think unit tightness is the key, I would like to see some units less tight though, IE some of those barbarian champions have overlapping elbows...

[Dudar]

Some random hoplite units fighting. In the background macedonian classical hoplites (with radius 0.23 ) holding two enemy hoplite units hard to see from this angle but formation is tight.

front - levy hoplites with radius 0.3. They get pushed and suffer casualties by elite units but still more less keep their formation

no defense mode for any unit in the picture

so as you see it actually works

[Phalanx300]

Thats certainly interesting, lets hope that it will be in the next EB version. And how to change it manually? Where to find it?

Edit: Nm, I found it and it really works great, the units stick together .

[starXdiaMoo]

Sounds very interesting, but does this really work? I will have to try it myself sometime...

[Phalanx300]

Originally Posted by starXdiaMoo

Sounds very interesting, but does this really work? I will have to try it myself sometime...

It does work, I just gave every Hoplite unit 2.0 and they sticked together, even those with swords. I wonder what will happen if you go even lower? Might test it out.

[mcantu]

unit radius does not define the distance between two units; it indicates the amount of space an individual soldier occupies (in meters). the default value is 0.8

the distance between soldiers is defined in the formations line...

[Phalanx300]

Originally Posted by mcantu

unit radius does not define the distance between two units; it indicates the amount of space an individual soldier occupies (in meters). the default value is 0.8

the distance between soldiers is defined in the formations line...

Well either case, they stick together at 0.2 and don't spread out. They even charge in 1 mass, instead of a loose formation.

[Dudar]

mcantu:

Sorry for some terminology confusion from my side. This value defines SOLDIER radius. And its in "soldier ..." line of EDU (following soldier's mass) not in "formation ...". See the first post. If this value is missing RTW assumes its default 0.4

[Fondor_Yards]

Hmmm going to give this a try, thanks for pointing it out.

[mcantu]

Originally Posted by Dudar

mcantu:

Sorry for some terminology confusion from my side. This value defines SOLDIER radius. And its in "soldier ..." line of EDU (following soldier's mass) not in "formation ...". See the first post. If this value is missing RTW assumes its default 0.4

sorry, you were right about the 0.4 being default

[Phalanx300]

I tried it some more and its quite good, it beats normal spearman . And you don't have the inaccuracies of short_pike.

Anyways I made a picture(btw I use 0.2 for all Hoplite units):

[Fondor_Yards]

Using it myself, so far has worked like a charm. Think about making a thread at the org with a link to this, is that ok Dudar?

[Dudar]

I used info on soldier radius from totalwar.org "Complete EDU guide" - so its there already. I dont have an idea if some other mods use it or not - but it improved my gaming experience.

Re: the value I wouldnt use 0.2 - 0.22 looks the best

[Phalanx300]

Well I just stay at 0.2, it lets them stay close enough together while not sitting in eachother. Also I will advise this for RS2.0, if your fine with that .(linking this tread)

[Dudar]

thats cool

[pirates_say_arrgg]

It looks like a pain to do though, with all the other units. Too bad....

[Juggernaut]

Now the only thing we need is fixing hoplites dragging their spears beneath the earth when marching....

[chenkai11]

I think it should only apply to professional or elite hoplites, and leave the levy hoplites to its original stat. The levies should fight in a little unprofessional manner.

BTW how many hoplite units are there?

[aqd]

The unit radius affects combat effectiveness A LOT. You may also want to lower their attack stats slightly (will make them weaker in auto-resolve through)