Proving the impossibility of Heaven and hell.

[Valentin the II]

Both of these concepts are logical falacies, let me show you why.

Basically Heaven and Hell are supposed to be punishments for good or bad deeds.
But there is a problem: How can you determin what is good or bad?
You cant, both of these concepts depend on perspective.
Some actions that are considerd good by some cultures are at the same time considerd bad by the others and sins a god is universal (and all loving) it cant be on someones side.

It could be determind by what the person thinks he is doing.
But then the concept of justice goes flying out the window when people like Hitler go to heaven.

It could be determind by what the person efected by your actions thinks.
But then whats considerd good by some cultures may be considerd bad by the others, or the other person could just be insane.

It could be determind by a set of rigid rulles.
But then, no one would actually have acses to them and most (if not all) people would go to hell.
The 10 comandments are totally useles btw and if used on a universal scale would be desastrous.

Finaly, it could be determind by the taboos set by the curent generation.
But then the concept of justice gets thrown out the window, again.


So, thats it.
The fair and just versions of Heaven and Hell cant exist (Karma to).

[Cluny the Scourge]

You just consult whichever holy book is relevant for whatever religion is being peddled that refers to the existence of Heaven and Hell in the first place.

The book tells you what is good and what is bad.

It's that simple.

[Beren Erchamion]

Originally Posted by Valentin the II

Both of these concepts are logical falacies, let me show you why.

Basically Heaven and Hell are supposed to be punishments for good or bad deeds.
But there is a problem: How can you determin what is good or bad?
You cant, both of these concepts depend on perspective.
Some actions that are considerd good by some cultures are at the same time considerd bad by the others and sins a god is universal (and all loving) it cant be on someones side.

It could be determind by what the person thinks he is doing.
But then the concept of justice goes flying out the window when people like Hitler go to heaven.

It could be determind by what the person efected by your actions thinks.
But then whats considerd good by some cultures may be considerd bad by the others, or the other person could just be insane.

It could be determind by a set of rigid rulles.
But then, no one would actually have acses to them and most (if not all) people would go to hell.
The 10 comandments are totally useles btw and if used on a universal scale would be desastrous.

Finaly, it could be determind by the taboos set by the curent generation.
But then the concept of justice gets thrown out the window, again.


So, thats it.
The fair and just versions of Heaven and Hell cant exist (Karma to).

Okay I'm a Christian and I do believe in both Heaven and Hell. Let me explain why.

The basic assumption behind your position (that there can't be any Heaven or Hell because there isn't any definitive right or wrong) is that there is no God. If there is a God, then He defines what is right and wrong. His standard of right and wrong is universal throughout the universe. If there is not a God, however, then you're right--there is no absolute right and wrong, and each individual must make his own moral standards.

The God I believe in is infinitely powerful, infinitely perfect, all-knowing, and present everywhere. He is the greatest Being in all of existence; there is no one greater than Him. Therefore, I believe that His moral standards are universal, since no one has the authority to override them. His moral standards are, as I believe, laid out in the Bible; including the Ten Commandments, which is a basic summary of God's Law. These are the beliefs and assumptions upon which I base my belief in Heaven and Hell.

Okay--so God is infinite and perfect, and therefore His Law and moral standard are universal. When we violate God's law (as every person does), we have offended an infinitely perfect God.

So what can God do? He is perfectly holy; therefore sin cannot go unpunished. He cannot just say "Oh well, I would rather that people behaved morally, but since they can't, I'll just forgive them." God cannot do this because His holiness and perfection will not allow Him to overlook evil.

This is why Hell exists. Since God cannot overlook evil, it must be punished. All those who violate God's law must go to hell to pay that debt. But since they have an infinite debt to an infinite God, Hell must last for all eternity. We humans can never fully pay off that debt, or erase our misdeeds.

God knows this. He knows that we imperfect humans will never be able to repay our debt to Him--not in this world, nor in Hell. Therefore He has given us an alternative. This is why Christ had to come to Earth to die on the cross. Because God loved us, He sent His Son to become a man and suffer for our sins. Since Jesus is God (and therefore infinitely perfect and holy) His sacrifice is infinite as well, and sufficient to satisfy an infinite God. Since Jesus is also Man, His sacrifice represents the human race. No human but Jesus has ever perfectly obeyed the Law. Jesus, when He became Man, paid mankind's debt to God by perfectly fulfilling God's moral standard and sacrificing Himself for the rest of mankind.

This is where Heaven comes in. Since Jesus Christ has paid for our sins on the Cross and satisfied Man's debt to God, those who believe in Him are allowed to enter Heaven. If we believe in Jesus and His sacrifice, God sees us as righteous because of Jesus' sacrifice and perfect life. Therefore, His justice and righteousness are satisfied, and those who believe in Jesus can enter Heaven for eternity.

That is actually a basic summary of the whole Christian faith. God is holy; we are sinners, and therefore deserve Hell. Jesus, who is God, offered a perfect sacrifice to pay for our sins, and if we believe in Him, we can go to Heaven.

I hope this helps you understand why people believe in Heaven and Hell. It is not illogical; it is based on the existence of a perfect and holy God.

[Evan_Kikla]

The Dictatorship of relativism.


Your thesis assumes that there is no such thing as definitive right and wrong. But just as we can say "this statement is right" or "this statement is wrong" (like your's), we can do the same for actions.

We can do this because there is such thing as something absolutely good and absolutely bad. We gain this knowledge through God, who is absolutely good. The absence of this good is called bad.

You fail at your quest to prove the impossibility of Heaven and Hell because before you prove such an impossibility you must first disprove God.

Get working.

[Astaroth]

If there is a god, he must be either completely powerless or incredibly sadistic and evil...

just look at some things (I'm not even going to get started on what god let's happen to people in genera...):

1) god created everything and knows everything

2) god created us the way he pleased, everything that happened happened because he wanted it to happen - or let it happen - because if not he isnt omnipotent which you claim him to be.

3) As a result, everything wrong we do is basically intended by god. God created us the way we are, god gave us the intentions for doing bad things. And then HE PUNISHES US FOR DOING WHAT HE LET US DO/MADE US DO?! wtf????

Just a very simple example: why the HELL did god make us desire women of other men. He says it is a sin, so WTF is the point in giving us that desire, to please his sadistic mind? To torture us for some reason..? WTF

And another thing that makes no sense whatsoever:

The massive contradictions in the bible. Jesus died for us on the cross, right? Okay, so why does the bible elsewhere state that the bad get seperated from the good on judgement's day? I mean that's just ridiculous, on the one hand it says if we commit sins we go to hell, then again it says jesus died for our sins.
And don't say that's BS, read the bible... countless times does it say that the good will go to heaven and the bad will burn in eternal fires (and the "bad" are not only the non-believers here.)
How can the all-forgiving nature of jesus be combined with the sadistic, evil, jealous god (oh yeah, read some old testament stories, ugh) and the view that good -> heaven, bad -> hell?
It's just a plain contradiction.

Oh and even better, countless times does it say that God loves all of his children (humans etc) equally. Well ok, it says no matter how many bad things they do, he loves them. Sooo why do they have to go to hell? That makes no sense whatsoever.

But now the most pathetic part. Ok, he likes them all equally. But, why do you only get to heaven if you believe in him? Doesnt he like those who do not believe in him as much as the believers? If yes, another contradiction. The bible is full of them...

Last but not least, what's with all those who weren't born to christian parents? They dont believe in him because they have sometimes never heard of him and christianity, instead they are part of other religions. Ok so they dont believe in him but they CANT if nobody ever taught them anything about jesus/god etc. So they go to hell for that? How's that fair? Seriously...
Oh and yeah, why is god that sadistic?

Isn't it the biggest joke ever, god makes you be born into a non-christian family (because apparently he makes everything happen or at least knows of everything and LETS it happen which is just as bad since he's omnipotent), then he punishes you for not believing in him by sending you to hell! Hahah!

And please, don't post some pathetic new sources with oh so clever theologians and priests "interpreting" the bible so it suits what they believe...
just read what's written in your "Holy Book", read it.

Another point also doesnt cease amazing but mainly amusing me: christianity is so incredible ridiculous and actually rather simple (the basic principle).
Look at this: 1) god created us and gave us the "free will" to do good and/or bad things. 2) if we are good children we go to heaven, if not -> hell, oh noes.
3) apparently god likes being an omnipotent dictator $$"§$"§$ such as "do what i want or ill torture you".
Isnt that sad? Read some old testament things, oh crap lol. I realize the NT is more important to christianity but even there, ugh...

And BTW I'm not muslim or anything, I'm actually christian at least on paper... just so nobody thinks I'm having my own religion's crusade against chr. or sth

[André Masséna]

I can destroy your argument in 2 words.

Free Will.

Not his fault what we choose to do.

[Bertinator]

Originally Posted by André Masséna

I can destroy your argument in 2 words.

Free Will.

Not his fault what we choose to do.

I can destroy your argument in one word:

Omnipotence.

He already knows what we're going to do ahead of time.


We can pay off an infinite debt just by believing in someone? Sounds awfully logical, because the perfect god wouldn't want people to do good deeds or anything to help society move along, right? He wants you to believe in one of hundreds of people that have claimed to be the Messiah. Once you do that, it'll do more to help you than donating a billion dollars to starving orphan children. Is that what I'm getting?

So what can God do? He is perfectly holy; therefore sin cannot go unpunished. He cannot just say "Oh well, I would rather that people behaved morally, but since they can't, I'll just forgive them." God cannot do this because His holiness and perfection will not allow Him to overlook evil.

Yes. That makes sense. He is perfectly holy; therefore sin cannot go unpunished. Except if you happen to believe in some guy. Then he can say, "Oh well, I would rather that people behaved morally, but since they believe in someone, they're perfectly good people." God cannot do this because His holiness and perfection will not allow Him to overlook evil... Except if you're a Christian. Then it's perfectly fine for him to overlook any amount of evil.

God knows this. He knows that we imperfect humans will never be able to repay our debt to Him--not in this world, nor in Hell. Therefore He has given us an alternative. This is why Christ had to come to Earth to die on the cross. Because God loved us, He sent His Son to become a man and suffer for our sins.

Woah, woah, woah. So he can't magically forgive us unless we believe that a guy is our savior? Why need the middle man and uselessly condemn people to hell if you're going to forgive people who commited sin with no real reason for doing so, anyway?

Since Jesus is God (and therefore infinitely perfect and holy) His sacrifice is infinite as well, and sufficient to satisfy an infinite God. Since Jesus is also Man, His sacrifice represents the human race. No human but Jesus has ever perfectly obeyed the Law. Jesus, when He became Man, paid mankind's debt to God by perfectly fulfilling God's moral standard and sacrificing Himself for the rest of mankind.

I see. So finite pain when he'll live eternally (see: infinitely) and thus experience infinite joy. Finite pain = Making up for infinite punishment? Why not just punish everyone a little bit instead of punishing everyone infinitely except for a select few who happened to be brought up to believe some guy is their savior?



I'd also like to say... "God gave us free will." Someone puts a gun to your head and says you'll be shot if you don't do what he wants. Don't worry, you have plenty of free will to do whatever you want. He's actually a nice guy. Just give him your money, and you won't be shot. He's forgiving like that! If you don't, you're a bad person, you deserve to be shot, and he will shoot you.

[André Masséna]

I can destroy your argument in one word:

Omnipotence.

He already knows what we're going to do ahead of time.

Again, Free will.

He may know what we'll do, but it remains our choice.

[Bertinator]

Originally Posted by André Masséna

Again, Free will.

He may know what we'll do, but it remains our choice.

No, it isn't. You design a program. You execute the program. The program doesn't have 'free will'; it's following a predetermined set of instructions. If it does something bad, it's your fault, not the program's. He knew when he created you that you would go to hell, what decisions you would make. He designed you to make those decisions, knowing full well it would lead you to eternal damnation. He designed you to make every last sin you did. He designed you with a certain path, making you go on the path when he made you when you did, and knowing everything you would do in the future.

It isn't free will if you don't have a choice in the matter. Predestination = no choice.

[André Masséna]

Predestination does not = free will, you are right.

But you're saying we have no free will, which is wrong. Just because he knows what you'll do before you do it, does not mean you don't have a choice in the matter. It is still your decision to make. It's like looking at history. Did anyone force George Washington into becoming a military man? No...but he did under his own free will. Does God force you to sin? No, but you do it on your own.

[Bertinator]

Originally Posted by André Masséna

Predestination does not = free will, you are right.

But you're saying we have no free will, which is wrong. Just because he knows what you'll do before you do it, does not mean you don't have a choice in the matter. It is still your decision to make. It's like looking at history. Did anyone force George Washington into becoming a military man? No...but he did under his own free will. Does God force you to sin? No, but you do it on your own.

You design a program. You execute the program. The program doesn't have 'free will'; it's following a predetermined set of instructions. If it does something bad, it's your fault, not the program's.

If you design a program to do X and Y, you can't punish the computer for doing X and Y.

[André Masséna]

God designs us with the ability to do Good and Bad...we can do either one....if we choose to do bad...it's our choice.

You're talking like we are predisposed to stealing from people and killing babies, etc.

[Pivra]

Originally Posted by Valentin the II

So, thats it.
The fair and just versions of Heaven and Hell cant exist (Karma to).

Karma is not a punishment, karma means "deed" from "kar" in Persian and Sanskrit means "to do". A karma that causes someone to suffer, with an aim to hurt that person or with thoughts that are created to destroy others is not a desireable karma and a karma that is done out of kindness,compassion,mercy, sympathy and the joy to see another person's joy is a desireable karma.

It is not like in the Western popular belief that karma is "what goes around comes around" thing....

[Bertinator]

Originally Posted by André Masséna

God designs us with the ability to do Good and Bad...we can do either one....if we choose to do bad...it's our choice.

You're talking like we are predisposed to stealing from people and killing babies, etc.

You're totally ignoring the logic. I'd seriously like to see you try that in court.

"See, erm, uh... Sure, I programmed my robot here to kill people. Sure I knew it would kill people. But, uh... I designed it with the ability to do good and evil. It could do either one. It chose bad, that's the robot's choice."

That's the exact same logic you're using here. It does not work. I'll post it yet again.

You design a program. You execute the program. The program doesn't have 'free will'; it's following a predetermined set of instructions. If it does something bad, it's your fault, not the program's. If you design a program to do X and Y, you can't punish the computer for doing X and Y.

Shouting 'but he gave us the ability to choose' doesn't automatically make any points against that invalid.

[Beren Erchamion]

Originally Posted by Bertinator

We can pay off an infinite debt just by believing in someone? Sounds awfully logical, because the perfect god wouldn't want people to do good deeds or anything to help society move along, right? He wants you to believe in one of hundreds of people that have claimed to be the Messiah. Once you do that, it'll do more to help you than donating a billion dollars to starving orphan children. Is that what I'm getting?

Good deeds (such as donating money to help children) will be a result of belief in Jesus. Because He saved us, we love Him; because we love Him, we want to please Him; because we want to please Him, we do good deeds. The good deeds won't help save us, but they please God and help our fellow humans.

The fact that we are forgiven does not mean that we are exempt from doing good deeds, or that God does not want us to do good deeds. Rather, good deeds are a result of salvation.

Originally Posted by Bertinator

Yes. That makes sense. He is perfectly holy; therefore sin cannot go unpunished. Except if you happen to believe in some guy. Then he can say, "Oh well, I would rather that people behaved morally, but since they believe in someone, they're perfectly good people." God cannot do this because His holiness and perfection will not allow Him to overlook evil... Except if you're a Christian. Then it's perfectly fine for him to overlook any amount of evil.

God does not overlook the sins of Christians. Instead, He sees Jesus' righteousness as their own. It is because of the righteousness of Jesus that Christians are saved--not because God overlooks our sins. God still is angry when we sin, but He forgives us because of Christ's sacrifice. Being a Christian is not a license to sin.

Originally Posted by Bertinator

Woah, woah, woah. So he can't magically forgive us unless we believe that a guy is our savior? Why need the middle man and uselessly condemn people to hell if you're going to forgive people who commited sin with no real reason for doing so, anyway?

There is no magic about it, and He has every reason to forgive our sins since Christ already paid the penalty for them.

Originally Posted by Bertinator

I see. So finite pain when he'll live eternally (see: infinitely) and thus experience infinite joy. Finite pain = Making up for infinite punishment? Why not just punish everyone a little bit instead of punishing everyone infinitely except for a select few who happened to be brought up to believe some guy is their savior?

God's justice will not be satisfied by any form of finite punishment whatsoever. As I said before, when you offend an infinite God, you create an infinite debt for yourself. This calls for infinite punishment--paid either by yourself in Hell, or already paid for by Jesus on the cross. And the suffering of Jesus was not finite, either. Besides suffering physical death and torture on the Cross, He suffered the infinite wrath of God.

Originally Posted by Bertinator

I'd also like to say... "God gave us free will." Someone puts a gun to your head and says you'll be shot if you don't do what he wants. Don't worry, you have plenty of free will to do whatever you want. He's actually a nice guy. Just give him your money, and you won't be shot. He's forgiving like that! If you don't, you're a bad person, you deserve to be shot, and he will shoot you.

The relationship between God's sovereignty and our free will is something that our finite minds cannot understand. But both do exist. Humans have free will, and God has absolute sovereignty over everything that happens.

[André Masséna]

You're totally ignoring the logic. I'd seriously like to see you try that in court.

"See, erm, uh... Sure, I programmed my robot here to kill people. Sure I knew it would kill people. But, uh... I designed it with the ability to do good and evil. It could do either one. It chose bad, that's the robot's choice."

That's the exact same logic you're using here. It does not work. I'll post it yet again.

You can post this all day, it doesn't change the fact that Humans are not robots, nor are we computers or programs. We are far more complex than that.

Let me ask you this. If you were around in the early 1900's and you saw baby Hitler being born, and you KNEW what he was going to do, would you just kill him right then and there? Would you destroy him for crimes he hasn't even committed yet?
What's worse? Giving someone a chance to do good and having them fail, or not even allowing them a chance at life?

[Bertinator]

Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion

Good deeds (such as donating money to help children) will be a result of belief in Jesus. Because He saved us, we love Him; because we love Him, we want to please Him; because we want to please Him, we do good deeds. The good deeds won't help save us, but they please God and help our fellow humans.

The fact that we are forgiven does not mean that we are exempt from doing good deeds, or that God does not want us to do good deeds. Rather, good deeds are a result of salvation.

Because all Christians do good deeds and no one else does.

God does not overlook the sins of Christians. Instead, He sees Jesus' righteousness as their own. It is because of the righteousness of Jesus that Christians are saved--not because God overlooks our sins. God still is angry when we sin, but He forgives us because of Christ's sacrifice. Being a Christian is not a license to sin.

If he forgives us and doesn't punish us whatsoever, how isn't it overlooking sin?

There is no magic about it, and He has every reason to forgive our sins since Christ already paid the penalty for them.

Finite pain can not compensate for infinite pain, especially when said finite pain results in an infinite gain, thus offsetting any 'sacrifice' involved. Oh, gee. He suffered something that many other people have suffered also (or suffered things worse), and now gets to live forever happy and gleeful. Damn, what a sacrifice! I'd do it. In fact, I bet you 99.999% of people would.

God's justice will not be satisfied by any form of finite punishment whatsoever. As I said before, when you offend an infinite God, you create an infinite debt for yourself. This calls for infinite punishment--paid either by yourself in Hell, or already paid for by Jesus on the cross.

Dying on the cross and in turn receiving an infinite benefit =/= infinite sacrifice.

The relationship between God's sovereignty and our free will is something that our finite minds cannot understand. But both do exist. Humans have free will, and God has absolute sovereignty over everything that happens.

You can't decide everything that someone does and yet have them possess free will. It totally goes against the very definition of the word! It's a paradox. Freedom is slavery and war is peace too, I bet. Might as well be saying "The table is 100% red with no other colors, yet contains no red whatsoever anywhere on it."

You can post this all day, it doesn't change the fact that Humans are not robots, nor are we computers or programs. We are far more complex than that.

Actually, we -are- complicated biological computers. It isn't magic that does it.

Let me ask you this. If you were around in the early 1900's and you saw baby Hitler being born, and you KNEW what he was going to do, would you just kill him right then and there? Would you destroy him for crimes he hasn't even committed yet?
What's worse? Giving someone a chance to do good and having them fail, or not even allowing them a chance at life?

Here's what I'd do: I simply would have never created him. Problem is solved. No one is punished. Because otherwise god his punishing an infinite number of people for crimes they didn't commit, as he could bring about an infinite number of existences.

[André Masséna]

Actually, we -are- complicated biological computers. It isn't magic that does it.

Nor is it set in stone like a computer program.

Here's what I'd do: I simply would have never created him. Problem is solved. No one is punished. Because otherwise god his punishing an infinite number of people for crimes they didn't commit, as he could bring about an infinite number of existences.

What's the point in existence if we have no choice in our actions?

[Bertinator]

Originally Posted by André Masséna

Nor is it set in stone like a computer program.

For a single person given a specific set of circumstances, yes, it's set in stone. You can recreate yourself however many times, but if you meet the exact same scenario and live under the exact same conditions, you will not act any different at all. And that's what God would be doing. He's putting you under X conditions, which will invariably lead to Y happening. He can put you through X all he wants, but Y will always happen, never Z.

What's the point in existence if we have no choice in our actions?

Who says there's a god that chooses our actions? Obviously he can neither be an infinite god (and therefore one able to infinitely punish or reward us) or a benevolent one (seeing as he'd send them to their demise).

[Beren Erchamion]

Originally Posted by Bertinator

Because all Christians do good deeds and no one else does.

I did not say that Christians are perfect, or that they are the only people who do good deeds. Good deeds are a result of being a Christian. That doesn't mean that they can't be the result of other things as well.

If he forgives us and doesn't punish us whatsoever, how isn't it overlooking sin?

Because the sin is paid for. For God to overlook sin, he would have to ignore it and not require that it be paid for. The sin of a Christian is paid for by Christ's sacrifice. Therefore God can justly forgive that sin because it has been paid for.

Finite pain can not compensate for infinite pain, especially when said finite pain results in an infinite gain, thus offsetting any 'sacrifice' involved. Oh, gee. He suffered something that many other people have suffered also (or suffered things worse), and now gets to live forever happy and gleeful. Damn, what a sacrifice! I'd do it. In fact, I bet you 99.999% of people would.

Dying on the cross and in turn receiving an infinite benefit =/= infinite sacrifice.

He did not suffer something that other people have suffered. Besides the physical torture on the Cross, Jesus had to endure the infinite wrath of God. No living man has ever endured that. His suffering was more than external--it was spiritual as well. The physical suffering is more clearly described in the Bible because it is the only aspect of Jesus' suffering that we can really relate to.

The fact that there were benefits does not negate the sacrifice. Pain is pain, and suffering is suffering--whatever the reason. And the Bible acknowledges that Jesus gained more than he suffered: "...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." --Hebrews 12:2, NAS. So the fact that Jesus' suffering brought good to Him does not mean that His suffering was invalid.

You can't decide everything that someone does and yet have them possess free will. It totally goes against the very definition of the word!

I know--that was my point when I said that we can't understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and free will. Look, some aspects of Christianity defy human reason, and we just have to believe them and trust that God, who is infinitely more intelligent than we are, understands them.

Here's what I'd do: I simply would have never created him. Problem is solved. No one is punished. Because otherwise god his punishing an infinite number of people for crimes they didn't commit, as he could bring about an infinite number of existences.

Okay, that's your opinion--but the fact is, that's not what God decided to do. Who are we to question Him?