Moders and "Moders" (regulations debate)

[Burebista]

I have some rules that I cam up with to after I encounter some problems in the workshop.Pls. suggest and debate on them. ( I will not mention names )

As you all know a moder works his but of trying to make new units or mods.....then come some dudes who steal their work without any official permission and submit them as their own "very hard made work". This attitude can't no longer be supported.

We all know we base our work upon CA's one but this not means that we should not have some guidance rules to govern the release of new materials in our RTW community. For this reason I will invite the most known moders and moderators from .ORG, SCC and TWC to debate here on this matter and come up if possible with a common set of rules.

Here is what I have in mind for start:

1. Any moder has 100 % rights over his moded material.

2. Any other moder who is using materials from different mods or moders have to ask permission for this openly on the incorporated moded materials main forum and also submit a link to this on his presentation Readme downloaded file.

possible good Example.

My mode use all the RTR units,TTO CVP, SCC materials and mine . This are all approved by their initial makers. See the links request here .....SCC, TWC Org or others

3. If a moder declares his work open to be reused or remoded then it should be no problem in asking for permission.(if of course you are not doing it as a polite gesture).

4. The work that is 51% remoded no longer requires permission just an readme Note Example:The respective units in the mod are remoded by me from GJ units and a info PM sended to the original maker. If the maker is deciding that the re modifications are not 51% new then he can complain to the .ORG SCC And TWC admins and moderators about this. A common statement should be made in a couple of weeks.

5. The 3 Sites can decide to block all the so called moders work and downloads ...no to mention forums basically shutting him down. This will be made after an initial warning to the false moder.

6. Mods that use pre modded incorporated materials and are more than 51% not original to the moder who is submitting them will no longer be accepted to be called Mods but Mod Compilations we cannot be sure of the exact 51% percentage and we can accept 20% error margins. Of course that this Mod Compilation will still need forum topic reply permissions from his original moders who have their work compiled in.

7. And now a suggestion. All the major mods on SCC ORG and the TWC should be allowed to use this term Total Conversion Mod so we will have basically 3 categories.

Total Conversion Mods

Mods

Compilation Mods

This are suggestions pls. debate if you agree or not. A set of RTW Moding world conduit can be suggested and later enforced no matter the chances of success and i hope wee will not arrive to blocking actions against any want to be moder.

ahhhhh it may be verry possible that I posted this in an exclusive forum. Any moderator passing by pls. send it to feedback and suggestions forum.

[the Black Prince]

if you expect to get the best coverage of this topic you should have posted in the Org... i've never seen the orgs top modders (not moders or mods, the abr for moderators) come here.
and what does this have to do with our own forum constitution?


you cannot copyright material thats already copyrighted... you can't make things legal, though i agree that some regulation is perhaps required by common consent.
if you use someone elses script or graphic it has ALWAYS been standard modding policy for every game thats ever been modded to credit it in the readme and orther .txt files where the script is used. it used to be the case when modding mtw, you surprise me greatly if you tell me this practise has fallen out of use.


no modder has 100% rights over material, it all belings to CA... did oyu nor read their various legal notices?
every modder should already been giving credit, its common courtesy, but by all means, post that you are using someones material, somewhere... i posted most of my modding stuff on .com as it happens, as well as here, and i spent my time helping other people perform their own mods... i certainly wouldn't expect them to add in to their files assited by the Black Prince, especially if the mod is for personal use only.

4/ how do you define something 50% remoded?
there are also more than 3 sites iinvolved in mod creation. the site i work for totalRome has an active modding section, the official site has an active modding section, and the Lords do teir development through their own site to.

mods of this game are usually classified as being Total Conversion (NTW) Overwrite mod (KekvitIrae's unit mod) of Expantion Mod (Imperial Mod for MTW)
this being:
1/ a mod that replaces the game files completetly with new campaign graphics etc
2/ a mod that overwrites and rteplaces section of the game to make to run (most common form)
3/ a mod that can be played alongside and as an addition to the original game, usually leaving the original game fully intact.

[Burebista]

Originally posted by the Black Prince@Dec 17 2004, 04:22 PM

if you expect to get the best coverage of this topic you should have posted in the Org... i've never seen the orgs top modders (not moders or mods, the abr for moderators) come here.
and what does this have to do with our own forum constitution?

I know but we should make some movement sacrifices....we hold the debate here and the voteing poll on this matter at the .ORg how thus this sound.

you cannot copyright material thats already copyrighted... you can't make things legal, though i agree that some regulation is perhaps required by common consent.
if you use someone elses script or graphic it has ALWAYS been standard modding policy for every game thats ever been modded to credit it in the readme and orther .txt files where the script is used. it used to be the case when modding mtw, you surprise me greatly if you tell me this practise has fallen out of use. no modder has 100% rights over material, it all belings to CA... did oyu nor read their various legal notices?

Our standard unspoken rules are no longer respected and if you mention the creator you should ask for his permision. Btw I know CA rules RTW but I was refering to our virtual RTW comunity.

4/ how do you define something 50% remoded?
there are also more than 3 sites iinvolved in mod creation. the site i work for totalRome has an active modding section, the official site has an active modding section, and the Lords do teir development through their own site to

pls. inform them i don't know all the sites .....spread the word.....if we really want to be neutral we should all meet at .com TW official site.

mods of this game are usually classified as being Total Conversion (NTW) Overwrite mod (KekvitIrae's unit mod) of Expantion Mod (Imperial Mod for MTW)
this being:
1/ a mod that replaces the game files completetly with new campaign graphics etc
2/ a mod that overwrites and rteplaces section of the game to make to run (most common form)
3/ a mod that can be played alongside and as an addition to the original game, usually leaving the original game fully intact.

...I'm lost in the translation but I will think about it

[the Black Prince]

voting poll?

TWc is the only site i know that holds votes to implement rules and stuff... lol... just get everyone to ratify a Convention on Modding

[Burebista]

Originally posted by the Black Prince@Dec 17 2004, 05:10 PM
voting poll?

TWc is the only site i know that holds votes to implement rules and stuff... lol... just get everyone to ratify a Convention on Modding

...ok...but I can't inform all cause I dont know them....hey ! can you post a main page news at the ORG. with this thread linked ?! I will make sure one will be at TWC and one at SCC.....The rest of the RTW sites comunityes who see this pls. post and debate.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Regarding my oppinion on matters, I cannot say enough. I'm in total agreement with that policy. There is however one or two matters that concern me:

-What is the criteria used to judge the level of modification to the original texture and mesh for the determination of the 51% ?
-A modder has 100% of rights over his meshes, but what about exclusivity of units regarding specific mods where this modder has been working? Who has the rights to the meshes and textures in this situation?

[snuggins]

I'm sick of people stealing other people's work, I think it is so wrong that legal action must be taken if anyone does this.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Originally posted by Burebista
Aymar de Bois Mauri I need your replys and ideeas !...they are coming ?! pls. post some rules so we will have more to work on.

Well, aside from the measures you've mentioned to implement a secure policy of protected material, I would suggest that the ground rules could be something like this:

1. Any modder has 100 % rights over his moded material, except when he has comited himself to making exclusive units for a particluar mod in that he is cooperating with. The rules and status variables of this "contract" between the MOD and the modder must be expressed in posts made by the interested parties in an area that cannot be altered.

Since the golden rule of honourable beahaviour has gone the way of the dodo it seems necessary to take such measures.

2. Any other moder who is using materials from different mods or moders have to ask permission for this openly on the incorporated moded materials main forum and also submit a link to this on his presentation Readme downloaded file. The rules and status variables of this "contract" between the modder and the MOD owners must be expressed in posts made by the interested parties in an area that cannot be altered.

Nothing else to add. This is in fact another "contract", but this time it regards the "purchase" of "propietary technology" from other MODs.

3. If a moder declares his work open to be reused or remoded then it should be no problem in asking for permission.(if of course you are not doing it as a polite gesture).

If the modder declares his work open for everyone, then nobody needs to ask permission for anything. The user cannot, however, claim that such work is his or was made by himself. In the event of that occurring the forums where this user is registered should take measures to punish the guilty party.

4. The work that is 51% remoded no longer requires permission just an readme Note Example:The respective units in the mod are remoded by me from GJ units and a info PM sended to the original maker. If the maker is deciding that the re modifications are not 51% new then he can complain to the .ORG SCC And TWC admins and moderators about this. A common statement should be made in a couple of weeks.

Agreed. But what is 51%. How to determine it? Texture? 3d mesh? Both? And if so, then what? Averaging of every unit?

5. The 3 Sites can decide to block all the so called moders work and downloads ...no to mention forums basically shutting him down. This will be made after an initial warning to the false moder.

This should be implemented in the eventuality of breach of contract on all the aforementioned situations.

6. Mods that use pre modded incorporated materials and are more than 51% not original to the moder who is submitting them will no longer be accepted to be called Mods but Mod Compilations we cannot be sure of the exact 51% percentage and we can accept 20% error margins. Of course that this Mod Compilation will still need forum topic reply permissions from his original moders who have their work compiled in.

This situation does not cover the possibility of a particular MOD having all units but one with 60% alterations and one with 30%. Or the exact opposite. How to solve that problem? How do you determine the status of the MOD? Proportion? [Number of units above 51%] / [Number of units below 51%] > 1 or < 1 ?

7. And now a suggestion. All the major mods on SCC ORG and the TWC should be allowed to use this term Total Conversion Mod so we will have basically 3 categories.

The Black Prince has answered better than me:

Total Conversion - a mod that replaces the game files completetly with new campaign graphics etc
Overwrite - a mod that overwrites and replaces sections of the game to make it run differently (most common form)
Expansion - a mod that can be played alongside and as an addition to the original game, usually leaving the original game fully intact.

But I can add that each one of these MODs above can, or not, include all the situations mentioned previously. Within the MODs definitions a subcategory for these particular types of copyrighted material would be best, such as:

- In-House Modification.
- Re-worked Models Compilation.
- Models Compilation.

[WhiteWolf]

Hi I am the Art Director at LOTR fourth age mod and personally I think that this sounds like a great idea. Though it is sad that such a thing is needed I have already seen this lack of respect all over the forums. My guess would be that since RTW is so easy to mod that more people are getting into it, which is both a good and a bad thing. I look foreward to such a thing as our mod has already experienced attempts to steal certain material. If there is anything that our team could do or anyway which we could support this please let us know.

Thanks
WhiteWolf

[the Black Prince]

compliments of Duke John of the Org

I do not really understand the necessity of this. If a modder makes skins or other material that is clearly his then other modders should ask permission before editing/using it in a public mod. Using entire mods as a base for another public mod is just plain silly.

If you think that this discussion should be held, then feel free to make a new topic in the General forum in the R:TW mod section.

Cheers,
Duke John

the general forum he means is of course the one on the Org

[Duke John]

Just a quick reply.

You can make nice guidelines or set of rules, but there are modders who are modding a cracked game. There is no way you can enforce a sense of morale on them. If they do not expect offical copyrights, what makes you think they would respect your rules?

Plus if a mod needs to leech on other mods in the form of textures, icons, or entire campaigns then I really do not think that you should need to fear competition. Of course it hurts when it happens, but I think there is comfort when you know that the majority of modders despises such acts.

If there is a mod that is using textures or such and when there is believeable proof that it was used without permission then the thread will be closed. And if I'm feeling cranky I will make a public announcement of it stripping the member of any respect.

The above is something that IMO all Mod Moderators should do. But I think there is more to it. At the Org we have a strict rule that Warez cannot be discussed. I will not name any sites, but if moderators allow people to talk about hacks, illegal R:TW versions then you really shouldn't be surprised that people are illegally taking your material.

Note that modding ideas should not be "copyrighted". The modding community can only grow if modders share their knowledge amongst each other. If you keep it to yourself to make that all exclusive mod then you should start a company and not act like a community member.

Luckily I haven't seen such problems yet in the Org, so what happened that this discussion was started?

And as a last comment I would really like to stress that you should avoid witch-hunts. If someone is caught using textures from another mod, do not start name-calling or haunt them down. Contact the moderator explain the situation and most probably issue can be resolved with an impartial judge in the middle.

Cheers,
Duke John

Edit: I noticed another thread where Burebista asked about how to handle vlad who was using multiple units for which he got no permission to use in a public mod. I remember the mod at the Org and just I closed it. Please PM me if you see your textures being used without permission at the Org.

[fatsheep]

4. The work that is 51% remoded no longer requires permission just an readme Note Example:The respective units in the mod are remoded by me from GJ units and a info PM sended to the original maker. If the maker is deciding that the re modifications are not 51% new then he can complain to the .ORG SCC And TWC admins and moderators about this. A common statement should be made in a couple of weeks.

How do you tell what 51% is? And does this mean I can just copy a shield from another modder (which does not make up 51% of the texture) and use it on my own unit? In my opinion no material from one person's unit should be used on another unless he has permission.

Just my 2 cents

-sheep

[tommh]

This seems like a fuitle endeavor to me. You have no legal rights to any material pertaining to RTW, as CA and Activision are not waving any of their rights. The internet because of the ability to be anonymous and to create new identities at will makes any sort of community enforcement quite difficult as well.

Quite aside from this issue is the question of should the community go in this direction. I totally agree that credit should be given when something from a previous mod is used I'm not sure if permission is a reasonable or desirable requirement. Afterall no one is seeking CA's permission. What if the person is no longer available? What if the work is part of a larger mod that is still active but the specific contributer is no longer active?

It also seems that the defacto standard being proposed is that art based assets recieve protection and design based assets do not. This seems to be a double standard. If a modder spends 20 hours balancing out a change to spear based units doesn't he deserve the same consideration as someone who spent 20 hours making a new Spartan model? What about the CVP for instance?

This whole thing is troubling to me as it seems to be a symptom of a overall feeling of less and less openness in the moding community.

[the Black Prince]

HEAR HEAR!!!


my thoughts exactly.

if oyu write a book on a subject, you don't ask all your references permission to use material in their book, you simply reference it and cite any quotes. generally in the modding world as a whole, if you use someone elses material, be it sacripts, grpahics or entire mods, you always cite who did the actual work. the modding community is an open place to share ideas and contribute to helping people to personalise a great game to how they want it. you're trying to turn thiis into some kind of deep rivalry between varying modding groups, so we'll end up with a situation where a decent mod fails because TWC modders refuse to give permission for SCC modders to use material that is and should be open and shared between all members of community.

futrhermore, legally you cannot copyright anything that does not belong to you. CA holds all the rights for this game and anything related to it. the way they've worded some of the copyright stuff, it could easily be taken to mean that anything you create thats designed for RTW becomes part of the game, and belongs to CA, not you. not only that, but unless you have permission from CA, you can create whatever units you like, but if you modify CAs units and maps and so on, you're in breach of copyright.
just tyr to remember who is actually breaking what laws before we start getting all legalistic here

[Burebista]

Originally posted by Duke John@Dec 17 2004, 09:18 PM
Edit: I noticed another thread where Burebista asked about how to handle vlad who was using multiple units for which he got no permission to use in a public mod. I remember the mod at the Org and just I closed it. Please PM me if you see your textures being used without permission at the Org.

well don't rush to fast vlad was under investigation. We still need to see what GJ has to say since most of the units are his and the rest are to scatered to really track their origins....his spartans are .com ones...but then I maked the disscution public in the hope he will corect and show his ways of "makeing new units" before wee took action against him.

It's very good that we are keeping constructive. For sure the sites moderators and the working moders will feel more secure if a dude is not showing cooperation or leasen to simple questions or demands. The power to close them on all 3 sites wil greatly enhance their respect in posting double posting or stoping stealing units. Now if you will not respect the one of the 3 admin you will have big problems since the 3 admin and moderstors teams will cooperate in sauch a way that any offender will have a really good time makeing unethical forum things.

After we finish this debate we can make a voteing poll at the ORG and the news should be created by SCC if they want to participate and posted on all 3 main pages and of course other sites.

All sites are free to participate in this debate and I don't see any TWC advantage if we debate here ...after this we all will benefit. Remember that the TTO after his merging with the EB.org has big interests in TWC and .ORG so it actualy does not matter were we post. I chosed this place since I have moderator powers here.

gtg. now....pls excuse my spelling I will be back

EDIT. It seem that the mod makers know best how stresful this problem is and the need for a set of solution better communication and betwen sites news updates communication. This is not about going to a tribunal and do big legal LAWs...this is about our internal bussnis on our sites and forums not CA...we acn enforce good behaviour and more respect from all this "new moders" and rude forum posters.

We have a power that is flawed if we not comunicate and respect each ours decisions. They can steal org supported works and post them on TWC.....sib already has such news on the TWC main page.....so this is about finding real solutions useing our moderator powers and good relations....

this is my 5 cents

[Burebista]

Originally posted by Burebista@Dec 18 2004, 03:23 PM
well don't rush to fast vlad was under investigation. We still need to see what GJ has to say since most of the units are his and the rest are to scatered to really track their origins....his spartans are .com ones...but then I maked the disscution public in the hope he will corect and show his ways of "makeing new units" before wee took action against him.

I am now 100% certan that Vlad is useing other peoples units without any mention or request ( I finded my units inside his mod so....my susspicions were verified ). Few pixels additions or incriseing the numbers of soldiers in a unit does not mean it is his hard worked unit. (to upload it and say he did it/mod it). It is most probably that for the rest of modded units he has no permissions to remod them and upload them. This is an ethical problem for the RTW moding world.

He has 3 days to request all the permissions from the moders whos work he is useing or I will shut him down here at TWC to. Period.

[Duke John]

Please contact me if TWC modders see their work appearing on the Org without their consent. I will take appropiate actions.

Cheers,
Duke John

[Burebista]

Originally posted by Duke John@Dec 20 2004, 04:03 PM
Please contact me if TWC modders see their work appearing on the Org without their consent. I will take appropiate actions.

Cheers,
Duke John

You to pls. do the same if you find something used here from the org without permission. Also if you have a particular rude member who makes bad posts and upsets people around ...pls. inform him that if you will shutdown the posting ability on .Org we will do the same at TWC (if you request it). Bad people are not desired on any RTW site.

We thank you for the new cooperation froum system

Cheers to you to ,
Burebista (Callatian at .org)

[fatsheep]

Alright, Duke John please do the same for me, if you see anyone with stolen work from the org on SCC then just pm me. Hopefully us three can keep plagurism under control *viking*

[Burebista]

It seems the "moderators treaty" is going foward....thanks fatsheep any more suggestions on the rules or we make a single news post on all 3 sties main pages and the rules remain unwritten and known by heart and good colaboration ?!