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Thread: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

  1. #541

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You never ask. And no, its your job to source that. You were the one to claim it was nothing but a ceremonial place than a real power. How about you back that up?


    Ask China. Maybe they don't agree with the proposal, but don't disagree either. its called abstaining.


    So? The US has more population than Canada, does that give justification for the US to take over Canada?


    Thats not an ally. The cold War may be over, but Russia and China are not allies in the slightest. Wgere is Russia supporting China's claims in the South China Sea?



    You mean the same country China has threatened to go to war over numerous times? I don't think so.

    China is the second largest economic power and yet you don't think it has allies. Those who have money have friends.


    Do i have to explain to you again how claiming another nation's territorial waters is very much bullying the nation.

    Since you sitll refuse to accept the OP here is another story
    .
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8AS05E20121129

    Boarding vessels in the disputed seas? That is both illegal and very much bullying. China cannot board vessels that are not in their territorial waters.


    Just because it can be done, doe snot mean it makes it easier to do it. A good example is nuclear weapons. Everyone knows you can make them. Does that mean they are now easy to make? No.



    Navies like time to build. China has a long way to go. Is that hard to understand?


    Americas didn't win WWI. Britain, France, and the US won WWI. And the Ss went in at the last minute and didn't help out too much. The US Army in WWI sucked. It still used outdated tactics that caused over 100,000 of it soldiers to die in less than a year. Because of the lack of experience the US had many soldiers died.



    Source.


    While they had the Allies helping them, and while they lost millions do soldiers. Millions. Lack of experience is one reason why the Russians did so bad at the beginning of the war.


    Iraq? Twice? Vietnam? Have you ignored the last 4 wars the US has been involved in?


    I never brought up the Korean War with you. I was just showing how just because China has millions of soldiers, doesn't make it the best Army in the world. Numbers do not mean anything.
    5 SC members each can veto, 3 on one side 2 on the other, Russia used Veto close to 200 times America is not that far behind. What exactly is done. The united nations can't even solve disputes between minor nations much less a super power and a potential super power.

    Yea, China abstained because it needed the West a lot more than a sea which they cannot control at that time. Now China could exert control over it and the relationship has been a lot more even now days. It's more mutual need than a one sided need.


    US and Canada doesn't have a disputed boarder. Also the US is a million times stronger than Canada.

    Russia has no stake in SCS, why would Russia do anything? China Russian alliance is strong and any Chinese and Russian would know about it. Military exercises all the time and trade agreements, weapons sales, what more does one need.

    Taiwan is not a country, the Nationalists escaped to Taiwan. When Chiang died, his grave faced the mainland as a sign of his desire to go back. Also Taiwan are pure Chinese, not like Thai Chinese but actual Chinese. Their interests are tied to the mainland.


    Claiming another country's territory is your opinion, Chinese government never claimed it, it was always part of China according to them. You fail to understand that there are two sides and it is a matter of opinion whose side you are on. If you are Chinese you would be on China's side, if Vietnamese then on Vietnam's side. This isn't 1+1=2 where everybody agrees the answer is 2 which would make this a statement rather than a judgement call.

    I said it would take 1-2 decade to build up the navy, not sure what the disagreement is....

    Yet the US was on the winning side and had total of 4 million troops. Men died but battles were won. So what, the end result was victory, just more died than should.

    You want a source on Russians using new recruits? How many men did the russians start with and how many at the end? Where do you think these men came from.

    Yet they still won, just heavy casualties, but the Russians did pay the Nazis back over the following decades.

    I mean equal wars, in what war is Iraq and Vietnam equals or close to equals? Did they have the third biggest air force? One of the best equipped infantry army, a top Navy? When was an American carrier in danger? When was 100,000 men in danger because of direct warfare and not guerrilla tactics?

    When did I say numbers mean anything, but I get that you brought it up in another argument, but still to suggest that the equipment difference is that big on land at this time is at least a tad ridicules.

  2. #542

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Yeah dudes, I learned in my grade 10 American history class that the Soviets beat the Germans because they had more boys and girls to catch German bullets, and because of that, all the soviet people could line up and like totally just trample the invading Germans to death.

    It took absolutely no skill, strategy or ability to win world war two on the Eastern Front. Just millions of unarmed Vasily's running through fields to overwhelm German superior hand eye coordination and ammunition supplies.

  3. #543

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by Chukada1 View Post
    Yeah dudes, I learned in my grade 10 American history class that the Soviets beat the Germans because they had more boys and girls to catch German bullets, and because of that, all the soviet people could line up and like totally just trample the invading Germans to death.

    It took absolutely no skill, strategy or ability to win world war two on the Eastern Front. Just millions of unarmed Vasily's running through fields to overwhelm German superior hand eye coordination and ammunition supplies.
    You realize Russians had a superior Tank right? You realize right after WW2 ended the cold war started and Soviet was a super power right? They didn't do that by having the biggest population.

    If it took no skill or strategy, why did French not catch some bullets. France had millions of people, are french people all crap cause they surrendered?

    If it took no skill then why did America had a hard time against the Germans when over 90% of the elite forces are in russia?

  4. #544

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    I know that the Chinese had a 20 to 1 advantage in Korea and that is the only reason the combined armies of the UN that totaled 941,600 compared to the 1,350,000 Chinese didn't defeat the Chinese is because the Chinese had an overwhelming strategical numerical superiority to the UN forces.

    So you see guys, Chinese outnumbered UN, 20 million to 1 and they still could not win. Numbers are not everything. In fact I will go so far as to ludicrously say, numbers are irrelevent, completely meaningless to war. When you have drones and b-22's flying over head, numbers mean nothing. US can defeat any army in the worl- Boom - what was that? China just shot down our satellites? FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

    Well dat it guys. I guzz I was wrong and war is more complex than I, (either a soldier or marine in the American armed forces, or some guy sitting on a chair on the computer, understands.) thought.
    Last edited by Chukada1; February 22, 2013 at 08:09 AM.

  5. #545

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Battles are won by taking the high ground; whoever can destroy the cohesion of the opposing military and have the strategic depth to maintain pressure will win.
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  6. #546
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    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    You realize Russians had a superior Tank right? You realize right after WW2 ended the cold war started and Soviet was a super power right? They didn't do that by having the biggest population.

    If it took no skill or strategy, why did French not catch some bullets. France had millions of people, are french people all crap cause they surrendered?

    If it took no skill then why did America had a hard time against the Germans when over 90% of the elite forces are in russia?
    France did not have a population of over 100 million. Their population was less than the population of Germany



  7. #547

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Yeah no. Numbers stopped being important when you stopped having to kill people by hand. It's all about positioning, gear and knowledge of terrain (numbers help but they're far less important)
    Last edited by Lazarus; February 22, 2013 at 09:34 AM.
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  8. #548
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    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    Yeah no. Numbers stopped being important when you stopped having to kill people by hand. It's all about positioning, gear and knowledge of terrain (numbers help but they're far less important)
    Acutally numbers are very important but the price of equipment is so high that manpower is less important than money.

    For a defender the most efficient tactic is to disperse your force and maintain a network where you can strike at the attacker from a wide number of directions. To do this you need good communications and a lot of people to not only maintain the the high cost equipment, but also to defend and service this equipment.

  9. #549

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    China did not lay any serious claim on them until the nationalist era. This isn't the first time China has pulled anything stupid about it either, considering they killed 70 Vietnamese troops in '74. They then killed 60 Vietnamise seamen in the 80s as well.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; February 22, 2013 at 10:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by Chukada1 View Post
    Yeah dudes, I learned in my grade 10 American history class that the Soviets beat the Germans because they had more boys and girls to catch German bullets, and because of that, all the soviet people could line up and like totally just trample the invading Germans to death.

    It took absolutely no skill, strategy or ability to win world war two on the Eastern Front. Just millions of unarmed Vasily's running through fields to overwhelm German superior hand eye coordination and ammunition supplies.
    No, no, it MUST be the alternative. The Eastern Front was won with no reliance on overwhelming numbers, human wave attacks, and forced suicidal assaults enforced by brutality directed against one's own soldiers but instead pure strategic genius. And supplies mean nothing at all. Nor does equipment. Hence, 1 Russian soldier is worth at least 10 of any other country's soldier. Except Chinese, of course.

  11. #551
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    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Communism is best -ism.

    The prowess of the fighting man and woman draped in red is proof of this.

    Oh look another thread gone to **** with historical inaccuracy and trolling. But then again this thread was **** like 20 pages ago.

  12. #552
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    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    5 SC members each can veto, 3 on one side 2 on the other, Russia used Veto close to 200 times America is not that far behind. What exactly is done. The united nations can't even solve disputes between minor nations much less a super power and a potential super power.
    Thats not a source. But its quite obvious you know nothing about the UN. You do realize not all disputes are handled by the Security Council? Ever heard of the General Assembly?

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    Yea, China abstained because it needed the West a lot more than a sea which they cannot control at that time.
    Source? Because you realize China has abstained to issues that have nothing to do with the sea, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    US and Canada doesn't have a disputed boarder. Also the US is a million times stronger than Canada.
    You didn't answer my question. Is ti right for the US to take over Canada, if its 300 million inhabitants want to?

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    Russia has no stake in SCS, why would Russia do anything? China Russian alliance is strong and any Chinese and Russian would know about it. Military exercises all the time and trade agreements, weapons sales, what more does one need.
    The US has military exercises with Russia. Does that mean the US and Russia are allied? No. You still again fail to prove your claim Russia and China are allies. Start backing up your claims please.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    Taiwan is not a country, the Nationalists escaped to Taiwan.
    It is veyr much a country. A country who does not want to be a part of China.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    When Chiang died, his grave faced the mainland as a sign of his desire to go back. Also Taiwan are pure Chinese, not like Thai Chinese but actual Chinese. Their interests are tied to the mainland.
    Regardless Taiwan supports the US over China.


    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    Claiming another country's territory is your opinion, Chinese government never claimed it, it was always part of China according to them.
    No, its not my opinion its fact. Start reading my sources. According to the Law of the Sea, nations are allowed to have territorial waters. China is claiming the territorials waters of Malaysia and Brunei.


    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    You fail to understand that there are two sides and it is a matter of opinion whose side you are on. If you are Chinese you would be on China's side, if Vietnamese then on Vietnam's side. This isn't 1+1=2 where everybody agrees the answer is 2 which would make this a statement rather than a judgement call.
    No, you still fail to understand law. And you ignore sources. China has said that it will now start boarding vessels in the disputed seas. That is illegal. Its violates the Law of the Sea, and is an act of war. That is bullying. You just continue to ignore the facts presented to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    I said it would take 1-2 decade to build up the navy, not sure what the disagreement is....
    I say its going to take longer than that. Understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    Yet the US was on the winning side and had total of 4 million troops. Men died but battles were won. So what, the end result was victory, just more died than should.
    It does not matter. The US Army in WWI sucked. Thats my point. Your point was that the US Army was great for having no experience when this is simply false.

    You also continue to ignore the majority of the war had already been fought when the US entered.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    You want a source on Russians using new recruits? How many men did the russians start with and how many at the end? Where do you think these men came from.
    No, i want a source on the claim you made. That Russia's army was mostly new recruits.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    Yet they still won, just heavy casualties, but the Russians did pay the Nazis back over the following decades.
    At the cost of millions. Do you realize this contradicts the point you made? Having no experience is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    I mean equal wars, in what war is Iraq and Vietnam equals or close to equals? Did they have the third biggest air force? One of the best equipped infantry army, a top Navy?
    Iraq in 1991 had one of the largest standing armies in the world. Yet coalition forces managed to crush them without taking heavy causalities. Another good example of how numbers mean nothing.
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    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  13. #553

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by lemondude View Post
    Also Taiwan are pure Chinese, not like Thai Chinese but actual Chinese.
    The aboriginal Taiwanese were not Chinese, they were not even of the same race (or phenotype or whatever you like to call it). Chinese people immigrated later and became culturally dominant. If now you're claiming that Taiwanese are "pure Chinese", this can mean one of two things:
    1) there has been a genocide of the native population, or
    2) you're wrong.

    #2 seems like the better option, don't you think?

    And even if the Taiwanese were "100% Chinese", that would not give anyone from mainland China the right to annex them. They're the descendants of people who didn't want to live in a Communist dictatorship led by the biggest mass murderer in history. That is anybody's right, whether Chinese or not.

  14. #554
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    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    if there's something i love more than anything else, it's when people from the outside think they know what Taiwanese people want and like.
    Given that i'm a card carrying citizen of the ROC i think i'm more than qualified than any of you to comment

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    The aboriginal Taiwanese were not Chinese, they were not even of the same race (or phenotype or whatever you like to call it). Chinese people immigrated later and became culturally dominant. If now you're claiming that Taiwanese are "pure Chinese", this can mean one of two things:
    1) there has been a genocide of the native population, or
    2) you're wrong.

    #2 seems like the better option, don't you think?

    And even if the Taiwanese were "100% Chinese", that would not give anyone from mainland China the right to annex them. They're the descendants of people who didn't want to live in a Communist dictatorship led by the biggest mass murderer in history. That is anybody's right, whether Chinese or not.
    um, you realise that the aboriginal taiwanese are amongst the strongest supporters of the KMT, the Nationalist party, that supports eventual reunification with the mainland right?

    @everyone
    see guys this is the sort of pig ignorance armchair generals living in the safety of the xyz american/western city display when they think life is like Generals:Zero Hour or some ****. You assume the ethnic han settlers exterminated the native aborignals in a similar fashion as say the British and the australian aboriginals when evidence states otherwise. See, given your western centric perspective you assumed that other cultures would be as base and morally degenerate as the british colonists who exterminated and raped their way to power.

    why oh why did i expect coming back to TWC would be any better than 6 months ago?

    btw wtf do you mean 'pure Chinese'?! you do realise that China is made up of over 56 ethnic minorities including caucasian ethnic Russians? that's like saying a pure american is can only be a caucasian and dismissing the efforts of asian americans who contributed to the country. the sad fact is that certain individuals at TWC do believe such BS
    Last edited by Exarch; February 23, 2013 at 07:46 AM.

  15. #555

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    um, you realise that the aboriginal taiwanese are amongst the strongest supporters of the KMT, the Nationalist party, that supports eventual reunification with the mainland right?
    Yes, and how does that translate to hostile takeover by the Communists? I don't think that's what the KMT have in mind when they talk about reunification.
    Also, you've just proven my point that the Taiwanese are not, in fact, 100% Han or whatever lemondude wanted to express by that.


    @everyone
    see guys this is the sort of pig ignorance armchair generals living in the safety of the xyz american/western city display when they think life is like Generals:Zero Hour or some ****.
    As opposed to you, who's living in the safety of xyz Taiwanese city, a safety provided by yours truly the US Navy?


    You assume the ethnic han settlers exterminated the native aborignals in a similar fashion as say the British and the australian aboriginals when evidence states otherwise. See, given your western centric perspective you assumed that other cultures would be as base and morally degenerate as the british colonists who exterminated and raped their way to power.
    Wow, talk about ignorance and racial prejudice there. The Han have their own bloody history of wars and extermination, which can compete with any European culture, in fact with all of them together.


    btw wtf do you mean 'pure Chinese'?!
    I don't know, ask lemondude.


    you do realise that China is made up of over 56 ethnic minorities including caucasian ethnic Russians?
    I didn't know China extended to the Caucasus. Reminds me of those old GDR era jokes about the future German/Chinese border in Eastern Europe.


    that's like saying a pure american is can only be a caucasian and dismissing the efforts of asian americans who contributed to the country. the sad fact is that certain individuals at TWC do believe such BS
    Caucasian are Asian...

  16. #556

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    I didn't have the patience to read this entire thread so my apologies in advance for repeating information.

    The term "Chinese" is a bit of a misnomer. Chinese refers to a plethora of different ethnic groups. It is a references to a nationality, not an ethnic group.

    In regards to Taiwan. The PRC considers it part of China. I have a Chinese map which indicates this. Plus, my Chinese students had a fit when I had them fill out a map of Asia and Taiwan was separated out. I settled them when I told them that I always remove autonomous regions even if they are not recognized as independent. As a side note: I haven't met anyone from Taiwan that didn't correct me that they are Taiwanese and not Chinese. Since they do not consider themselves to be part of PRC, I would assume this would be logical. However, I con certainly see referring to themselves as Chinese as well given the fact that the government is officially known as the Republic of China and in international events it is referred to as Chinese Taipei. Anyway, this is how I explained it my Chinese students- Taiwan is not universally recognized as an Independent country, however it makes its own independent decisions without interference from any government including Beijing. I see no major changes in this relation for the foreseeable future.

    Regarding the OP.
    China may push, but they will never risk war. It would be a war it can never win. China's economic growth has spurred a greater push to acquire its former position in the Asian region. China, in peacetime, as positioned itself for continued growth, but if it pushes for a war economic disaster would be quick. It is already feeling the heat of competition from other developing nations and war would put it at a very distinct advantage as other markets would look very attractive if China is no longer an option for trade. This being said, this is a huge bluff game. Any disruption to trade will have repercussions world wide. So, it would be in everyone's interest to avoid war. The real question is where will that line be drawn.

    ---

  17. #557

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    SNIP
    I would interpret pure Chinese as meaning Chinese that have ties to the Mainland through direct descendence, i.e, their grandparents went to Taiwan from the Mainland and wish to return, unlike the Thai Chinese that immigrated to Thailand during the Qing dynasty and are decendents of merchants, people who do not have strong ties to the Mainland.
    Caucasian are Asian...
    Caucasian is a racial term for white. Caucasian also means people from the Caucaus, who are undoubtfully white and not Asian. Its a difference in regional terminology.
    Last edited by Chukada1; February 23, 2013 at 12:20 PM.

  18. #558
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    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    @everyone
    see guys this is the sort of pig ignorance armchair generals living in the safety of the xyz american/western city display when they think life is like Generals:Zero Hour or some ****. You assume the ethnic han settlers exterminated the native aborignals in a similar fashion as say the British and the australian aboriginals when evidence states otherwise. See, given your western centric perspective you assumed that other cultures would be as base and morally degenerate as the british colonists who exterminated and raped their way to power.
    You may be better suited to speak about Taiwan but your knowledge about British colonization seems to be rather limited. The British government was generally not keen on killing or slaughering the local population. This could at times bring them into conflict with the colonists (like for example the British government preferring to keep colonials to the east of the Appalachians and trade with the Indians) but genocide was not the preferred British method for conquest.

  19. #559

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by Chukada1 View Post
    I would interpret pure Chinese as meaning Chinese that have ties to the Mainland through direct descendence, i.e, their grandparents went to Taiwan from the Mainland and wish to return, unlike the Thai Chinese that immigrated to Thailand during the Qing dynasty and are decendents of merchants, people who do not have strong ties to the Mainland.
    Yes but not all Taiwanese are descendants of fugitives. That we may surely agree on. Taiwanese may be culturally a Chinese group, but to claim they are ethnically Han or something and therefore belong to the PRC is just invalid.


    Caucasian is a racial term for white.
    Only in sloppy and imprecise English though. I know American authorities apply this terminology too, but it is stupid. If anything, whites are caucasoid just like yellow people are mongolid. Also, using Asian as a term for East Asian yellow people only discriminates against the more than 1 billion very real Asians who're brown or white. It's a sign of either Western ignorance or Chinese imperialism, depending on who's employing it.


    Caucasian also means people from the Caucaus, who are undoubtfully white and not Asian. Its a difference in regional terminology.
    The Caucasus is actually for the most part in Asia, and therefore they are Asian.

  20. #560

    Default Re: Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Yes but not all Taiwanese are descendants of fugitives. That we may surely agree on. Taiwanese may be culturally a Chinese group, but to claim they are ethnically Han or something and therefore belong to the PRC is just invalid.
    Many Taiwanese came from the Mainland but a few generations ago. They don't need to be ethnically Han to be from the Chinese mainland. There are many mainlanders who emigrated out of PRC who are not Han. I don't understand your point, do you believe that Han means Chinese?
    Only in sloppy and imprecise English though. I know American authorities apply this terminology too, but it is stupid. If anything, whites are caucasoid just like yellow people are mongolid. Also, using Asian as a term for East Asian yellow people only discriminates against the more than 1 billion very real Asians who're brown or white. It's a sign of either Western ignorance or Chinese imperialism, depending on who's employing it.
    The only yellow people can be found in Springfield, USA and areas with outbreaks of jaundice.

    The Caucasus is actually for the most part in Asia, and therefore they are Asian.
    Sure, under your terminology. Just accept that different countries use the same words differently, and concede that your post really had no relevance, as you are picking apart a non-existent mistake. The point isn't that Taiwanese should not be in the PRC or not, its if they want to, and the last election shows that there is still an equal divide in the loudest segments of Taiwanese society.

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