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Thread: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethencourt View Post
    About votations to decide subjective matters. Why would we need a votation to decide about something that is measurable? That would be a waste of time. The evalutation of the contributions is subjective because it is not only about quantity but quality. Quality and subjetivity are all in the same side of the reallity. I like it or I do not like it so my vote goes to... but once the votes are done you can count them. Yes maths but that does not change the subjective engine of the system.
    Still the system of how the voting procedure functions has absolutely nothing to do with a councillor reaching his conclusion. Not a thing.

    On the one side, there's a number of councillors who do reach a conclusion each for themselves. Then they vote using the voting procedure of yes/no/abstain. Then another defined procedure is used to interpret the the result. This all is part of the Patronisation procedure but one does not influence the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethencourt View Post
    And also this is the reason why the answers to the OP are completely subjective, has it happened that in time becoming citizen is more difficult?

    You seem to be bodered by my subjective statment. Honestly I am not saying it is a grave thing or not. But that the proven variability can lead to a insatisfaction is logical but not proven. When I, and I think anyother here, talk about the possible failures of any system used here I do not expect to be asked to prove every single opinion I may have . And the following is an uncontestable truth: I am not going to make it.
    Mate, it's about whether or not it's too hard to become a Citizen nowadays in comparison to past times. The system of voting has not changed all the time.

    If you feel that the system is unjust for whatever reason, go propose something different. I can assure you that I'm curious with what other system you may come up with and how just this system might "feel". ...

    And to set your assumption concerning me into perspective. I'm not bothered with you making subjective statements, expressing your opinion or what not. What I am pointing out is that if you make a claim by saying: "So there must be a percentage of applicants, that have failed that may feel bad because of this mechanism." I call for you to deliver the proof for this "must" <--- which indicates there is no escaping this. But empirical data (all applications) show that your supposed "must" has never been true and could only have been true for two cases, go and ask them or just step back from your claim that this "must" be true.
    Last edited by Aikanár; December 21, 2012 at 12:29 PM.


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  2. #62

    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    If you feel that the system is unjust for whatever reason, go propose something different. I can assure you that I'm curious with what other system you may come up with and how just this system might "feel". ...
    You are presuming that my global opinion of the system is bad, and it is not, this is another truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    And to set your assumption concerning me into perspective. I'm not bothered with you making subjective statements, expressing your opinion or what not. What I am pointing out is that if you make a claim by saying: "So there must be a percentage of applicants, that have failed that may feel bad because of this mechanism." I call for you to deliver the proof for this "must" <--- which indicates there is no escaping this. But empirical data (all applications) show that your supposed "must" has never been true and could only have been true for two cases, go and ask them or just step back from your claim that this "must" be true.
    Because of the previous truth and because I have better things to do and I promise it I have believe me, I go back to the first truth of the previous post.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Spoiler for I render my keyboard and present the French national flag


    Son of Louis Lux, brother of MaxMazi, father of Squeaks, Makrell, Kaiser Leonidas, Iskar, Neadal, Sheridan, Bercor and HigoChumbo, house of Siblesz

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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Premiss: The Bar is Too high.



    Execution of solution: Expand the body & compostion of reviews judges, keeping political focus on and supporting CdeC applicants that share your views.


    So...you'all could be throwing down like this...

    1. Bump the council seats up for graps to say...15.

    2. Incorporate non-citizens into the CdeC. {Allow them to run for office, they can be Hex after all so why not?}

    3. Vote politically, backing those that best represent your views. {This concept may cut back on all this fan favorite/popularity crap that we keep hearing every time at bat.}


    and in conclusion...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Or just let every Citizen vote upon applicants, but beware of the possibility that for some 100 may vote and others may pass with 12 votes.


    Son of Louis Lux, brother of MaxMazi, father of Squeaks, Makrell, Kaiser Leonidas, Iskar, Neadal, Sheridan, Bercor and HigoChumbo, house of Siblesz

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  6. #66
    Mega Tortas de Bodemloze's Avatar Let's Get After It
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    Or just let every Citizen vote upon applicants, but beware of the possibility that for some 100 may vote and others may pass with 12 votes.
    Hmmmm....... Perhaps 50% open ballot, 50% CdeC?

    But I still push for non-citizen CdeC membership.
    Last edited by Mega Tortas de Bodemloze; December 21, 2012 at 01:29 PM. Reason: crappy grammar as per usual.
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  7. #67
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    On the CdeC we need modders who are familiar with the Rome engine, the refurbed Med 2 engine and the Warscape engine. We need graphic artists, 2d and 3d. We need those who know how a mod is developed, led, tested, packed and released. We need those familiar with the wide variety of TWC publications and content. We need those that know what good writing is and enjoy reading. We need regular D&D participants who are very familiar with the mudpit and know what good discussion is. We also need moderators who have access to an applicants's infraction history.

    In future, CdeC applicants should tell the general membership where their strength lies and choose: modding, debating, content. Then we will know whether the CdeC is covered in all areas. I must have missed some stuff out.




  8. #68
    Mega Tortas de Bodemloze's Avatar Let's Get After It
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Spot on and damn straight! So expand the board.... Now if the "open it to general voting" catches fire then maintain the CdeC carring say 50% of the vote to maintain continuity, reasearch, etc...
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  9. #69

    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    I prefer technical commitees to provide previous report to the CdC or specialized divisions of the CdC deciding about applications. Increase the numbers so there would be enough members in each commitee or division.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
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    Last edited by Bethencourt; December 21, 2012 at 01:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    @Beth:
    hehe, guess I was in the closed mode then
    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    On the CdeC we need modders who are familiar with the Rome engine, the refurbed Med 2 engine and the Warscape engine. We need graphic artists, 2d and 3d. We need those who know how a mod is developed, led, tested, packed and released. We need those familiar with the wide variety of TWC publications and content. We need those that know what good writing is and enjoy reading. We need regular D&D participants who are very familiar with the mudpit and know what good discussion is. We also need moderators who have access to an applicants's infraction history.

    In future, CdeC applicants should tell the general membership where their strength lies and choose: modding, debating, content. Then we will know whether the CdeC is covered in all areas. I must have missed some stuff out.
    You did: sexyness!
    Last edited by Aikanár; December 21, 2012 at 02:35 PM.


    Son of Louis Lux, brother of MaxMazi, father of Squeaks, Makrell, Kaiser Leonidas, Iskar, Neadal, Sheridan, Bercor and HigoChumbo, house of Siblesz

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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    So far only a single constructive, important post has been provided to the discussion:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord William
    First we must evaluate what we want citizenship to mean before determine how difficult we want to make the barriers of entry.

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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    I just wondered if I will pass the citizenship vote now.


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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    I just wondered if I will pass the citizenship vote now.
    You have been involved in major mod projects. You will always pass.
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  14. #74
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    I am an ex-CDEC Councillor and have served for the last six months and enjoyed the role considerably. In my opinion its a complete fallacy, about obtaining citizenship, it is certainly not set high. In my time, I would imagine that 85%-90% of citizen applications were passed. On the whole the applications were well crafted by patron and applicant and the the successful citizens were well deserving. I think the problem is that we citizens, do not bring enough potential citizens to the Curia and CDEC, with some choosing to make an excuse, its too hard.





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  15. #75
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navajo Joe View Post
    I am an ex-CDEC Councillor and have served for the last six months and enjoyed the role considerably. In my opinion its a complete fallacy, about obtaining citizenship, it is certainly not set high. In my time, I would imagine that 85%-90% of citizen applications were passed. On the whole the applications were well crafted by patron and applicant and the the successful citizens were well deserving. I think the problem is that we citizens, do not bring enough potential citizens to the Curia and CDEC, with some choosing to make an excuse, its too hard.
    Completely agree! The Curia would expand if more applicants were presented.
    At a rough count there were 70 last year (not exact as old private applications were retroactively added last year and I simply counted the completed votes) and there are a few thousand(?) active citizens. So even if all the votes last year were all patronised by different citizens (equally not true as 2 were mine), it still means the percentage of citizens patronising new candidates is low.

    Now I am not suggesting in any way that patronage should be mandatory but it is low, if those of us interested in patronage were more prolific, the number of successful candidates would increase.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    The bar for citizenship is not too high. The amount of patience and drive in people to work hard towards a goal is too low.

    People want things and they want them NAW...except that's not how the world works, so they whine that standards are too high.
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethencourt View Post
    Ask the others saying in this very thread subjective statements ( that you seem to call claims) to proof theirs.
    One of the main reasons the Curia was founded, was so members could be vetted as to who they are, and would have one vote on subjects relating to the community. Therefore giving a representative opinion of the site at large. One of the founding principles of the Curia is subjectivity, and it has always been one of its strongest hands. I debate and argue this issue frequently because I see the Curia losing its ability to be representative/has lost it, based on subjective opinions on erroneous opinions on how citizenship applications should be judged on occasion. Erroneous in the sense that citizenship is clearly not an award or reward in the constitution, it is been treated as such, and I strongly believe it is a flat contradiction of it. Citizenship is a member rank, although I think the way the citizen badge part of the constitution was worded in the Curial reforms probably confused matters, and it obscures the fact citizenship should be conferred on a case by case basis based on an applicants merit to the community, and by definition, the advantages to the site in them having citizenship. "Contributions" in the sense many look at it, is just one aspect of one's merit to the community. Sometimes I wonder if anyone bothers to try understanding or even reading the entire constitution beyond the line "Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen". A statement in itself which is deliberately vague and worthless as it merely says you have an opportunity, if you are "contributing" without barring someone not "contributing" from having an opportunity other than the base-requirements (50 posts, no warnings etc). Personally my understanding of the line is that "contributing" means you're an active poster. It's always been the case with citizenship applications no matter the era anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Navajo Joe View Post
    I am an ex-CDEC Councillor and have served for the last six months and enjoyed the role considerably. In my opinion its a complete fallacy, about obtaining citizenship, it is certainly not set high.
    I've asked plenty of no-brainers recently for it, and for the most part, the general membership who I've spoken too completely contradict what you've just said. The sole obsession with contributions and nothing else; the turning of citizenship into an award when it isn't in the constitution; and the rejection of several good candidates for citizenship based on flimsy reasoning is extremely damaging to the Curia. Most non-citizens believe the bar is set far too high, and anyone looking at it objectively will come to the same conclusion. The current ethos for extraordinarily high citizenship requirements in comparison to applications in previous years, together with incongruous attempts to ignore the general opinion on the ground in the community at large with "no it's not high" cop outs will eventually put the final nail in the Curial coffin unless something gives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ybbon View Post
    Now I am not suggesting in any way that patronage should be mandatory but it is low, if those of us interested in patronage were more prolific, the number of successful candidates would increase.
    Yup. Did try to get a bit of carrot going so more people gave patronizing a go, but I imagine most think it will be a waste of time and effort - based off the same understanding that they're going to have to jump through hoops, juggle and usher in quotes from the likes of Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink to get the application passed.

    I have questions for the "not too high" people's. If the Curia isn't representative of the community where vetted members without alts can give valued and verifiable feedback, then what is its use? Are you really suggesting it's all just for giving a pat on the back here and there? Why's the Curia needed for that? ....and where constitutionally does it say citizenship is an award or reward? What's the basis for this viewpoint in the constitution? When did citizenship get moved to the community award section of it? When did simply contributing posts - the classic definition, become not good enough? It feels that way. Where's borispavlovgrozny when you need him?

    I get a feeling my rant will go no where in the end - I've been a citizen nearly eight years now and I've never been as disappointed with the way the Curia is going as I am now. I can't say the problem is individual Councillors as I think on the whole, they're all pretty good. But the current system for patronizing stinks and has bred this atmosphere toward the general membership I truly despise. From my time here, I do also know if you want to change the ethos of the Curia, you've got to set the example yourself. Might be time I think about throwing my hat into the Curial ring again in the next set of elections. Maybe I've thrown enough dirt and strongly worded opinions around to get beaten down to last place by the most glorious abstain!

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  18. #78
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent-Q View Post
    the rejection of several good candidates for citizenship based on flimsy reasoning
    For example? Why don't you name them so we have something other than hot air to debate over?

    If you feel so strongly about your beliefs you should stand for election I feel. Why not? What is there to lose?
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent-Q View Post
    One of the main reasons the Curia was founded, was so members could be vetted as to who they are, and would have one vote on subjects relating to the community. Therefore giving a representative opinion of the site at large. One of the founding principles of the Curia is subjectivity, and it has always been one of its strongest hands. I debate and argue this issue frequently because I see the Curia losing its ability to be representative/has lost it, based on subjective opinions on erroneous opinions on how citizenship applications should be judged on occasion. Erroneous in the sense that citizenship is clearly not an award or reward in the constitution, it is been treated as such, and I strongly believe it is a flat contradiction of it. Citizenship is a member rank, although I think the way the citizen badge part of the constitution was worded in the Curial reforms probably confused matters, and it obscures the fact citizenship should be conferred on a case by case basis based on an applicants merit to the community, and by definition, the advantages to the site in them having citizenship. "Contributions" in the sense many look at it, is just one aspect of one's merit to the community. Sometimes I wonder if anyone bothers to try understanding or even reading the entire constitution beyond the line "Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen". A statement in itself which is deliberately vague and worthless as it merely says you have an opportunity, if you are "contributing" without barring someone not "contributing" from having an opportunity other than the base-requirements (50 posts, no warnings etc). Personally my understanding of the line is that "contributing" means you're an active poster. It's always been the case with citizenship applications no matter the era anyway.

    I've asked plenty of no-brainers recently for it, and for the most part, the general membership who I've spoken too completely contradict what you've just said. The sole obsession with contributions and nothing else; the turning of citizenship into an award when it isn't in the constitution; and the rejection of several good candidates for citizenship based on flimsy reasoning is extremely damaging to the Curia. Most non-citizens believe the bar is set far too high, and anyone looking at it objectively will come to the same conclusion. The current ethos for extraordinarily high citizenship requirements in comparison to applications in previous years, together with incongruous attempts to ignore the general opinion on the ground in the community at large with "no it's not high" cop outs will eventually put the final nail in the Curial coffin unless something gives.

    Yup. Did try to get a bit of carrot going so more people gave patronizing a go, but I imagine most think it will be a waste of time and effort - based off the same understanding that they're going to have to jump through hoops, juggle and usher in quotes from the likes of Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink to get the application passed.

    I have questions for the "not too high" people's. If the Curia isn't representative of the community where vetted members without alts can give valued and verifiable feedback, then what is its use? Are you really suggesting it's all just for giving a pat on the back here and there? Why's the Curia needed for that? ....and where constitutionally does it say citizenship is an award or reward? What's the basis for this viewpoint in the constitution? When did citizenship get moved to the community award section of it? When did simply contributing posts - the classic definition, become not good enough? It feels that way. Where's borispavlovgrozny when you need him?

    I get a feeling my rant will go no where in the end - I've been a citizen nearly eight years now and I've never been as disappointed with the way the Curia is going as I am now. I can't say the problem is individual Councillors as I think on the whole, they're all pretty good. But the current system for patronizing stinks and has bred this atmosphere toward the general membership I truly despise. From my time here, I do also know if you want to change the ethos of the Curia, you've got to set the example yourself. Might be time I think about throwing my hat into the Curial ring again in the next set of elections. Maybe I've thrown enough dirt and strongly worded opinions around to get beaten down to last place by the most glorious abstain!
    What a surprise to see me quoted here today! Really, when reading it I was thinking: when did I say that?

    I see that my words have been taken to start o continue a different debate to the one they were expressed for. But reading what you have written I agree in most of what you say. Obviously when there is a comunity there is subjectivity that is decided almost always by votes, except in authority decissions.

    Citizenship. The constitution says in a vague way, so it ends being very subjective to be defined, how to get it. The minimun active posting and no warnings , etc... are very much acceptable for all of us, but the level of requisits from then on is much more subjective, even more, it can be that people having the same contribution may have different result in the citizenship process. Even the apreciation of the actual level of dificulty to obtain it is very much discussed. Some people say it is high and some others think it is ok and even some others may think it is not high enough. Anyway it is the CdC members dedicing it by votes. So I think it is a good thing that you may apply to the CdC, no matter what G Brewster says. I say seriously that it would be interesting to see your opinion on every case, as this will be the best way to see in action the ideas you are expressing and to compare them to the others CdC members point of view. I remember a film by Henry Fonda in a jury when he convinced the rest of the jury starting all alone.12 Angry Men was the film. So I announce I will be voting you.

    About the award - reward thing. A vocabulary debate is not very interesting, but achieving the citizenship is a recognition of the contribution and the recognition is a motivation. But a motivation for what? When you want recognition you make all it is required to get it, or you just are making the necessary thing and then you get the recognition because someone propose it or you ask for it and it is ok, you feel better that day or month or year or for ever, it depends on you. But that is only a face of the citizenship. Yes, once you are citizenship, what can you do? I am citizen because of my modding contribution, so I keep on modding, what else? lately I have been posting here in the CVRIA, but I am a normal citizen, I have not run for any curial office. I think there is no need that every citizen runs for them. I have not patronized anyone. It is not that I do not want to but my modding time is very much consuming, so I have not time to search for candidates, but neither I have been contacted by any applicant that wanted me to be his or her patron, and it would be nice if it was so. I have been in the 2011 modding award committee, but it is not necessary to be citizen for that. And that is it. So appart from an office, patronization and votation what is expected from the citizens? What I have seen is that all things not concerning to the CVRIA life is left to content staff and administrators, so not having a clear objective for the CVRIA that leaves us with no much thing to do but votations about constitution, patronization, an office, and some funny posting. It is like the Chinese Emperor enclosed in the Forbidden City or the Haren of Istambul. As I said it is another entertainment of the site, a game, a game that has a limited gameplay so the number of players is not too high. But the 'secret' is that most of the time I am out of the walls of the CVRIA enjoying my modding activity, a 'secret' that we all have but seems not to share, that is why it is a 'secret' and not a secret. We or most of us are contributing to the TWC all the time at the same or higher level than the one we had when we became citizens. But we like not seeing it so we come here from time to time saying that we are not making much. TWC is full of citizens out of the walls making great beautiful things everyday. Is it possible that we could take part of that activity here or show it here? I opened a discussion based on the ideas of others like a month ago about promotion of the activities. Now that some constitutional changes have been done I will retake my project.
    Last edited by Bethencourt; January 08, 2013 at 01:14 PM.

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