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Thread: Athens vs. Sparta

  1. #21

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    The value of a human life is how well off/developed society is.

    Take for example the construction industry in the U.K. its about 72 this is hugley reduced on from just 50 years ago. Is one life worth a 10,000 buildings? a 100,000 buildings?

    We as a society accept this but would we accept the number of deaths from 100 years ago which could be as great as 1 per 1000 buildings? No we would not hence all the health and saftey we have today which saves many lives, but this is a product of a more advanced/wealtier society.

    Yes the loss of a human life throughout history is always regarded as a loss but the value of that life has changed. A deformed baby was seen as an acceptable accident of pregnancy much like a miscarrige. Unfortunate yes but just one of those things that life throws at you.

    The practice of only killing killing deformed babies is quite moderate compared to many areas of the modern world, some areas of asia there is 3 men to 2 women as girls are seen as less valuble (dowery/unable to support the parents) and killed at birth. Or take China which can kill a nearly born healthy baby if the parents voilate the 1/2 child policy.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Spartans only discarded weak Spartiate babies. As Sparta only had like 9000 citizens at it's peak not many babies were disposed off

    I find it more troubling that the Spartans sent Spartan teens to the Helots to kill and steal from them, as part of the normal training programme.


    I'm immortal! Unfortunately it wears off after 80 years..

  3. #23
    Visiar's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycurgus the Lawgiver View Post
    Spartans only discarded weak Spartiate babies. As Sparta only had like 9000 citizens at it's peak not many babies were disposed off

    I find it more troubling that the Spartans sent Spartan teens to the Helots to kill and steal from them, as part of the normal training programme.
    Training was harsh and disturbing but Sparta was trying to make the best soldiers in Greece. Through this harsh training they did so but you are right.




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  4. #24

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Warlord View Post
    The value of a human life is how well off/developed society is.

    Take for example the construction industry in the U.K. its about 72 this is hugley reduced on from just 50 years ago. Is one life worth a 10,000 buildings? a 100,000 buildings?

    We as a society accept this but would we accept the number of deaths from 100 years ago which could be as great as 1 per 1000 buildings? No we would not hence all the health and saftey we have today which saves many lives, but this is a product of a more advanced/wealtier society.

    Yes the loss of a human life throughout history is always regarded as a loss but the value of that life has changed. A deformed baby was seen as an acceptable accident of pregnancy much like a miscarrige. Unfortunate yes but just one of those things that life throws at you.

    The practice of only killing killing deformed babies is quite moderate compared to many areas of the modern world, some areas of asia there is 3 men to 2 women as girls are seen as less valuble (dowery/unable to support the parents) and killed at birth. Or take China which can kill a nearly born healthy baby if the parents voilate the 1/2 child policy.
    just because it seems moderate doesnt make it right. There is a huge difference between losing a baby to disease you cant help and simply leaving an infant to die . I see the value of one life as a priceless treasure. I dont know how you view human life but that is my opinion on it. On another point , this debate started as Athens vs Sparta not peoples views on how valuable a life is
    Last edited by Athenian Alexandros; July 30, 2009 at 10:59 PM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    The whole Athens vs. Sparta is just the reason why the Greek never conquered the whole world.
    Always figthing with each other and when one city state was performing an excellent task in Asia Minor (for example), other city states saw it fit to backstab the sucker.

    Rivalry that went so far as bringing enemy troops in the heart of Greece itself (Macedonian troops brought in by the Achaian League ), just to beat the other city state.


    I'm immortal! Unfortunately it wears off after 80 years..

  6. #26

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycurgus the Lawgiver View Post
    The whole Athens vs. Sparta is just the reason why the Greek never conquered the whole world.
    Always figthing with each other and when one city state was performing an excellent task in Asia Minor (for example), other city states saw it fit to backstab the sucker.

    Rivalry that went so far as bringing enemy troops in the heart of Greece itself (Macedonian troops brought in by the Achaian League ), just to beat the other city state.
    I agree , tthe peloponnesian war ruined the hellenic world utterly and allowed the persians to play them against each other. if Athens and Sparta had joined forces at the height of their power , they would have enjoyed unchallenged hegemony over greece , at least in that time period anyway

  7. #27
    Spartan198's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian Alexandros View Post
    I agree , tthe peloponnesian war ruined the hellenic world utterly and allowed the persians to play them against each other. if Athens and Sparta had joined forces at the height of their power , they would have enjoyed unchallenged hegemony over greece , at least in that time period anyway
    I seriously doubt either side would have been willing to "share" Greece...

  8. #28

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan198 View Post
    I seriously doubt either side would have been willing to "share" Greece...
    I guess . but it shows how powers can lose everything by fighting each other instead of gaining it through cooperation

  9. #29
    silentsam74's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Warlord View Post
    The value of a human life is how well off/developed society is.
    I hate being off topic but....

    Well, if thats the true measure then I feel bad for my own country. Its going backwards now. But, add in this little piece of madness. Sometimes people get a longer prison sentence for accidental death of an animal than for responsibility of accidentally killing another human being.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    --Thucydides

  10. #30

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    just because it seems moderate doesnt make it right. There is a huge difference between losing a baby to disease you cant help and simply leaving an infant to die . I see the value of one life as a priceless treasure. I dont know how you view human life but that is my opinion on it. On another point , this debate started as Athens vs Sparta not peoples views on how valuable a life is
    AA, Athens vs Sparta is so ambiguous that this topic could go in any direction.....defending the Spartan way of life and what they did or didn't do with infant babies fits the debate as there are no parameters or guidelines to steer the debate. However, your personal views on life (though shared my most if not all) do not fit the parameters as we are debating a specific time frame and what was done in said time. A better argument would be how the Athenians felt about such practices.
    I'm interested in the following if anyone can answer:
    1) how many battles did they fight each other in?
    2) how many wars?
    3) which faction sought more aide from others?
    4) which one stayed in power longer?
    5) which controlled more territory?
    6) which has had a lasting impact on the world?
    7) greatest generals?
    8) did one faction actually conquer and take over the other? or could they have?

  11. #31

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Warlord View Post
    Do you know anything about how little medical care/ high infant mortality rate seen in the ancient world?

    Most babies/small children died before reaching adulthood, is it cost effective to try and raise a damaged child which will take much more time and effort than other children and the "child" never be able to contribute to the family.

    Ideology is all very good when you live in a rich society but try living in one barley above subsistance farming and you get an whole new view on what is right and wrong.

    well said . It's ridiclous to judge them by todays 'morale' standards . Children dying in childbirth or at an early age was very common right upto modern times.

    also what would they think of modern societies were you can kill an unborn child that has nothing wrong with it because you don't want to have to take time of work or get fat.
    Last edited by gingerbill; August 07, 2009 at 01:03 PM.

  12. #32
    gaius_caesar's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by chazap View Post
    7) greatest generals?
    8) did one faction actually conquer and take over the other? or could they have?

    8) Lysander was a Spartan General that lead Sparta to win the Peloponnesian War
    9) IIRC, none of them ever conquered the other but Athens did realize defeat in the Peloponnesian War

  13. #33

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    I just want everyone to know im Christian and value human life greatly. I know others dont share this view but its mine . I support athens because of the effect on western civilization while spart left no monuments philosophy or culture but it did leave behind the story of Thermopylae which along with Marathon inspired generations afterward of the heroism and tale that free men stood against a tyrant and that few stood against many. They were in my opinion the two greatest citystates in greece and some dont share that view and i respect that. Many other greeks also fought at these battles and more in the face of the persian threat that saw greece rise to her golden age. Greece overall rocked civilization!

  14. #34

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by visiar View Post
    just like spartan198 said. it was on account of sickness or being deformed as these people wouldn't grow up to be good soldiers. Babies weren't killed just cause people wanted to. If they allowed them to grow up there would be gaps in the phalanx. Other cities didn't kill babies because every citizen wasn't soldier. In Sparta everyone was.

    Except it would have been impossible for them to determine that. I've personally witnessed dozens of ill, sickly, premie, and undersized babies grow up perfectly normal. Even after just 2 years they shake off most of what's troubling them at birth.

    Just because a child doesn't fit a standard doesn't make them less loved by their parents, or less worthy of life. That's eugenics. It's evil, pure and simple. There is no logical, justifiable backing for it. The state should have absolutely no say over the fate of a child. Who are they to decide whether or not someone gets a shot to live? They are no better than that "deformed" child. What if they didn't like how you looked when you were born? What if they don't like the way you look now?

    Don't be fooled by the mystique and legend of the Spartan culture; and definitely don't buy into the garbage that we know better today than we did then. It's exactly the same today as it was then. It was simply a form of state control; of governments believing they know what's best for their people (see: today's US Administration).
    Last edited by DoogansQuest; August 08, 2009 at 01:08 AM.

  15. #35
    Spartan198's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by DoogansQuest View Post
    Except it would have been impossible for them to determine that. I've personally witnessed dozens of ill, sickly, premie, and undersized babies grow up perfectly normal. Even after just 2 years they shake off most of what's troubling them at birth.
    It would have been impossible to determine the opposite as well. Those babies you witnessed all were born in the modern era, when health care is far more advanced than it ever could have been. Up until fairly recently, people have died from minor illnesses that we now consider mundane and an everyday occurance.
    Just because a child doesn't fit a standard doesn't make them less loved by their parents, or less worthy of life. That's eugenics. It's evil, pure and simple. There is no logical, justifiable backing for it. The state should have absolutely no say over the fate of a child. Who are they to decide whether or not someone gets a shot to live? They are no better than that "deformed" child. What if they didn't like how you looked when you were born? What if they don't like the way you look now?
    Like gingerbill said, it's ridiculous to judge them by today's moral standards. You may not see any logical or justifiable backing to it in AD 2009, but things were quite different in 500 BC.

    If they didn't like the way I looked at birth, if my physical state indicated anything that would make me unable to be an efficient soldier, I would have been discarded. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by DoogansQuest View Post
    Just because a child doesn't fit a standard doesn't make them less loved by their parents.
    Oh my friend you couldn't be more wrong. You have to place yourself in the Spartan society to really come at peace with this. There is nothing more unpredictable than human behaviour (this coming from a psychologist (in the making) ). Spartan society dictated that the greatest good in life was a herioc death (quite the paradox ). This could only be made possible by a physically fit child. Not to mention a superior psychological strength.

    Anyway to prove my point I'll give you a beautiful anecdote from Plutarch.
    "A woman, when she saw her son approaching, asked how their country was doing. When he said: 'All the men are dead,' she picked up a tile, threw it at him and killed him, saying" 'Then, did they send you to bring us the bad news?'


    I'm immortal! Unfortunately it wears off after 80 years..

  17. #37

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by visiar View Post
    Training was harsh and disturbing but Sparta was trying to make the best soldiers in Greece. Through this harsh training they did so but you are right.
    Sparta achieved little, although they had a "tough guy" military image and reputation.

    Thebes on the otherhand, destroyed Sparta. It's a shame that Pelopidas of Thebes died during a battle. They could have ruled Greece. (Yes Im aware that it's my user name ) He was the leader and general who lead Thebes into glory and victory.


    Athens vs sparta:

    Eh... Athens ftw.
    Everybody hates Sparta in Greece.

  18. #38
    silentsam74's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelopidas_Of_Thebes View Post
    Sparta achieved little, although they had a "tough guy" military image and reputation.

    Thebes on the otherhand, destroyed Sparta. It's a shame that Pelopidas of Thebes died during a battle. They could have ruled Greece. (Yes Im aware that it's my user name ) He was the leader and general who lead Thebes into glory and victory.
    Why Pelopidas rather than Epaminondas?
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    --Thucydides

  19. #39
    Visiar's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelopidas_Of_Thebes View Post
    Sparta achieved little, although they had a "tough guy" military image and reputation.

    Thebes on the otherhand, destroyed Sparta. It's a shame that Pelopidas of Thebes died during a battle. They could have ruled Greece. (Yes Im aware that it's my user name ) He was the leader and general who lead Thebes into glory and victory.


    Athens vs sparta:

    Eh... Athens ftw.
    Everybody hates Sparta in Greece.
    Sparta was weaker then. In its golden ages it could have fought a lot harder.




    "I've read the last page of the Bible. It's all going to turn out all right"
    -Billy Graham
    When did you become interested in politics?
    The very instant I became old.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Athens vs. Sparta

    Sparta had a stranglehold over much of Greece for quite some time after it took down Athens. Thebes had a comparatively little before it just degenerated into the usual city-state feuding. No real point on my part, but I feel that impartialism is key to discussing anything historical.

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