Tolkien General Discussion II

[knight of meh]

yea remember without the ring going up in flames sauron would have over run the good guys at dagorlad

im guessing the same double post was forum issues

[avenging angel]

yea remember without the ring going up in flames sauron would have over run the good guys at dagorlad

im guessing the same double post was forum issues

yes forum issues... didnt mean to do that. hell i couldnt get back into the forum until i turned off my pc.... TWICE...

[avenging angel]

If i was sauron, id be egging the united forces on while behind the black gate while simultaneously sending other forces out of minas morgul to flank them and cut them off in a pincer movement..

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

When an enemy is suicidal, and that enemy happens to be the last of Elendil's Line, which you've targeted for years, you go in and kill him.And a pincer movement from Minas Morgul wouldn't be practical.It wasn't Medieval 2 Total War, it would take days.

[avenging angel]

When an enemy is suicidal, and that enemy happens to be the last of Elendil's Line, which you've targeted for years, you go in and kill him.And a pincer movement from Minas Morgul wouldn't be practical.It wasn't Medieval 2 Total War, it would take days.

yea i suppose
If only sauron had third age total war to play out simulations and tactics before making his final plans...

[avenging angel]

Sauron "Aragorn your eridor army has taken the black gate. Thats not fair"...

[Ngugi]

I lack the quote at this moment but Tolkien stated that Sauron belived the army that went to the Black Gate did so because the new and current Ring-bearer was over confident, and Sauron sent all he had to crush the idiot and take back his Ring.

[conon394]

The Ring aspect cannot be forgotten. Both Aragorn and Gandlalf were in Gondor and both had been proving more powerful than he expected. Given Aragorn's mastery of the Stone and use of the dead to wash away a whole army in the South, he did as Ngugi pointed out see both oportunity and now would have felt out of time to wait. Its also useful to remember he had just a string of battles and Saruman/Isengard and likely Dul Guldur in a few days. His strength at sea was shattered - leaving open the possibility of it being taken.

I think the bigger whole is that Aragorn did order an immediate attack on Cair Andros and use his navy to put more troops from Rohan across. That would have gave him two lines of retreat, and logistics. More men could be called from Rohan and thus Gondor was to use its edge in horse.

[Krieglord]

I lack the quote at this moment but Tolkien stated that Sauron belived the army that went to the Black Gate did so because the new and current Ring-bearer was over confident, and Sauron sent all he had to crush the idiot and take back his Ring.

Makes sense I suppose

I think the bigger whole is that Aragorn did order an immediate attack on Cair Andros

To my knowledge Aragorn only sent 1000 soldiers who were to cowardly to cross into Dagorland it doesn't exactly seem like they could just march up and take the city.

[knight of meh]

add to that some rohirrim i think and they must have taken cair andros cause frodo saw gondor ships in the moorings on the way back from the ring destroying mission

Edit: wasn't cair andros just a fortress not a city?

Edit2: i now it says 6000 orcs and men came through the cair andros way but does it say how many made it back or if any were left behind as a garrison?

[avenging angel]

Yes cair andros was important but it wasnt a city but a fortification....

[Thangaror]

There are absolutely no details about fortifications or settlements on Cair Andros.

[knight of meh]

The Gondorians took Cair Andros' risk seriously. Amon Dîn, the first of the Beacon-hills, was set up originally to warn the citizens of Minas Tirith if Cair Andros was ever breached

^from unfinished tales not really details of fortifications but breached tells me some sort of defense garrison etc was established

since the last we hear of the island of Cair Andros, its moorings were used by the ships of Gondor

^ RoTK if they had moorings and this island was strategic from the first age to the third we can assume some level of fortification right?

[avenging angel]

True knight. Logically there had to be some sort if fortification/fort there. CA and Osgiliath were the only places large armies could cross..

You know how sauron couldve won with no losses at the end?
Come out the black gate in front of aragorn and the whole united army and sang "better the devil you know"...

[Ngugi]

There are absolutely no details about fortifications or settlements on Cair Andros.

There is, in either Appendix A or Appendix B concerning a steward soon before Denethor.
Don't have book at hand, but you can check there


EDIT: Home now. Here it is

In the days of Turin II the enemies of Gondor began to move again; for Sauron was grown again to power and the day of his arising was drawing near... It was Túrin that built secret refuges for his soldiers in Ithilien, of which Henneth Annûn was the longest guarded and manned. He also fortified again the isle of Cair Andros to defend Anórien.

- Appendix A; The Stewards

[avenging angel]

The lesson, dont argue with
Ngugi

[Ngugi]

Not quite but thank you haha; remember this one well because I once planned to remove Cair Andros as province of its own, but when I found this quote I had to can those plans

[avenging angel]

Not quite but thank you haha; remember this one well because I once planned to remove Cair Andros as province of its own, but when I found this quote I had to can those plans

Yr welcome and fortunately you didnt because holding on to the island is a great challenge when your economy sucks at the begining..

[conon394]

To my knowledge Aragorn only sent 1000 soldiers who were to cowardly to cross into Dagorland it doesn't exactly seem like they could just march up and take the city.

I recall his does think it is a task within the power he sends...

I rather think the 3000 or so Rohan troops let in Gondor, with ship support could have done the job sooner. Destroying both the garrison and the army allowed to flee, and would have made the LD attack more rational and less suicidal.

Come out the black gate in front of aragorn and the whole united army and sang "better the devil you know"...

I don't think so... He was weaker than before and he had been bested in past with the Ring, Know he has Gandal and Aragorn at his gate I don't see him risking it.

[glassakias]

If i was sauron, id be egging the united forces on while behind the black gate while simultaneously sending other forces out of minas morgul to flank them and cut them off in a pincer movement..

anyway minas morgul was empty after the battle of pelennor:

But Gandalf and Aragorn rode with the vanguard to the entrace of Morgul Vale and looked on the evil city. It was dark and lifeless; for the orcs and lesser creatures of Mordor that had dwelt there had been destroyed in battle, and the Nazgûl were abroad.
-The Black Gate opens

which lesser creatures does it mean anyway? are wolves and horses supposed to be lesser than orcs? in my view an orc is the lowest you could get in the creature hierarchy under Sauron's command.

I lack the quote at this moment but Tolkien stated that Sauron belived the army that went to the Black Gate did so because the new and current Ring-bearer was over confident, and Sauron sent all he had to crush the idiot and take back his Ring.

that was the speculation of Gandalf and he guessed good enough i suppose:

He will take that bait, in hope and in greed, for he will think that in such rashness he sees the pride of the new ringlord: and he will say: "So! he pushes out his neck too soon and too far. Let him come on, and behold I will have him in a trap from which he cannot escape. There I will crush him, and what he has taken in his insolence shall be mine again for ever"
-Gandalf in "The last debate"