View Poll Results: If we had a test to detect homosexuality before birth and a simple treatment to reverse it, would you want to use them on your own children?

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  • Yes, I would use the test and the treatment.

    50 46.73%
  • No, I wouldn't use the test or the treatment.

    42 39.25%
  • No, but I would use a treatment to make my children bisexual.

    4 3.74%
  • Don't know, don't care, don't plan to have children.

    11 10.28%
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Thread: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

  1. #21

    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Small addition to my above post: Social interacitons alter gene expression.

  2. #22
    DimeBagHo's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Intruder View Post
    "Detect homosexuality", "treatement [of homosexuality]", "Suppose homosexuality could be reversed [to what? - the norm?, the right sexuality?...] - what's this?
    And the options are grand... what about a poll: "Did you stop beating your father?" - Yes or No? Unnecessary to say, that I didn't vote.
    The problem with "when did you stop X" questions is that they imply you were doing X at some point in the past. I don't see how that applies here. You are free to say no, I wouldn't use these options, or that you don't know what you would do. Neither implies any past action or wrong doing.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    You are free to say no, (...)
    I already said, I won't vote. You don't have to go on about it.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Intruder View Post
    "Detect homosexuality", "treatement [of homosexuality]", "Suppose homosexuality could be reversed [to what? - the norm?, the right sexuality?...] - what's this?
    And the options are grand... what about a poll: "Did you stop beating your father?" - Yes or No? Unnecessary to say, that I didn't vote.

    Just for the record: My thesis - will be proven to be right in the next 20-30 years -: homo-/bi- and heterosexuality are neither defined purely by genes, upbringing and own actions/decisions alone, but are a dynamic mix of all of these dynamic aspects (Don't believe me? Perhaps modern science can help: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/322/5903/896.abstract). That said for most people, it's thus also possible to influence sexuality by medical treatement (atm still mostly theoretical I reckon), outer influences / environment and own actions/decisions.

    Also, if I had a wish free, I'd wan't my kids to be (mainly/mostly/as adults...) heterosexual, but most important I'd wish they wouldn't become reactionary dorks.

    Have a nice day!
    Your thesis is already accepted by those paying attention. There is a definite genetic link but the genes alone are not enough.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Your thesis is already accepted by those paying attention. There is a definite genetic link but the genes alone are not enough.
    But I guess it will still take some time till it's generally accepted. More research should and will be done - and it's, of course, not only relevant to sexuality.

    The thing is, the basis of the poll is out-dated - this alleged axiom:
    Most people in the scientific and medical communities now think that homosexuality is biologically determined, probably prior to birth.
    Apart from that the options to vote for are quite manipulative and work in favour of the OP's own premise / bias, which is obviously (despite an attempt to conceale it) anti-homosexual or at least shows some kind of (at least mild and/or subconscious) aversion towards homosexuality. But I can't really be bothered to elaborate on that. If that (an elaboration) is necessary for the OP (or others), it's already pointless. Having other people (in this case me) going on about one's own (in this case the OP's) faulty assumptions is, surprisingly, in most cases 'not welcomed'. I'm quite that kind of guy myself, actually.
    Anyhow... I don't care that much about if I convince anyone with my opinion here. In most cases people either figure out things for themselves (after considering what they've heared, read, experienced - with a little delay) or they don't.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Great thread, I'm going to have to put some thought into this one. My first inclination is to say yes...but who am I to fool with creation?

    I think I'd certainly have the test done..but I'm really ambivalent about the treatment.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    This is a very precarious subject. As I imagine many here would feel, I would sicken at the thought that a parent would abort the child purely because they are homosexual.

    But we're assuming that it could be treated so I'll approach it from that angle.

    Yeah, a parent should be allowed to alter this aspect of their child prior to birth. While it may be stepping into some shaky control of a parent over their child, it has to be recognized that its really not fair for the kid. Such an orientation comes with a heavy burden that can be quite overwhelming to kids. I mean, its why homosexual teen suicide rates are multiples higher than the average. I don't know of any kid that would "want" to be gay. For most parents, it would be more of a mercy to their child, rather than exerting their control over them. And one thing I can say is that if there was such a treatment, I can bet you that the kid would wish that the parents had done such a treatment.

    Would I take such a treatment? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Once you come to terms with who you are, its not so bad. I've already gotten to know some rather wonderful people and have also grown tremendously as a person because of it. Would I want to trade all that? Less than a year ago I would have said "Hell yes!", but now, well, I'm not sure...


    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    I have much the same concerns. Chosing the sexual orientation of your children seems a little too much like programing them. If this is OK what else would be OK? Could we choose political leanings, religious inclinations, aggressivness? All of those appear to have some biological basis.
    Yeah, at this point it becomes a rather sticky situation. Would genetically making everyone "ideal" ruin the diversity of people and the uniqueness of the individual?
    Or would it level the playing field, leaving one's own personal experiences and choices to shape their destiny rather than their set genes.

    We really have to learn more about behavior and determine the "nature vs. nurture" argument.


    Although, in reality, I don't even think homosexuality is dependent on genes. My friend has two identical twin uncles and one's gay and the other isn't.
    Last edited by Mr. Scott; April 20, 2012 at 12:37 AM.
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be cured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uber Mind View Post
    I think everyone when still a babe should be "made " an bisexual , so in some decades sexual orientation is not a problem anymore .

    I find this option to be my fav, would mostly solve the divide in one go.

    If defects and problems could be "Fixed" then id say go for it but Homosexuality isnt that.... should we realy fix something that isnt broke? Theres nothing wrong with Homosexuality, the issue is with society and this is were any attempts to alter should be made.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    How does homosexuality occur? Biologically speaking? Where does it form, what biologically is the difference between a gay and a straight?
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    I dont think they know exactly what causes changes in sexuality.

  11. #31
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valerio View Post
    How does homosexuality occur? Biologically speaking? Where does it form, what biologically is the difference between a gay and a straight?
    Probably nothing. I would imagine it's just how their brain comes to be wired. 90% of the time a guy's neurons align to want some tang. 10% of the time they want some orange juice. Me? I'm an astronaut. It's like some people liking certain colors more than other colors. It's like some people liking Vanilla (me) instead of Chocolate. Its like Chocolate Chip cookies vs oatmeal raising (me again).

    I don't think it's really an issue. The most that could happen is my son wants to be my daughter. But realistically if my son looked like this I'd be loathe to call him my son. If medicine can make it all work, whatever. As long as they aren't going to chop me up to turn me into a lesbian.



    I'm not going to freak out about it. It's weird, it's not bad.
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Intruder View Post
    The thing is, the basis of the poll is out-dated - this alleged axiom:Apart from that the options to vote for are quite manipulative and work in favour of the OP's own premise / bias, which is obviously (despite an attempt to conceale it) anti-homosexual or at least shows some kind of (at least mild and/or subconscious) aversion towards homosexuality. But I can't really be bothered to elaborate on that. If that (an elaboration) is necessary for the OP (or others), it's already pointless. Having other people (in this case me) going on about one's own (in this case the OP's) faulty assumptions is, surprisingly, in most cases 'not welcomed'. I'm quite that kind of guy myself, actually.
    Anyhow... I don't care that much about if I convince anyone with my opinion here. In most cases people either figure out things for themselves (after considering what they've heared, read, experienced - with a little delay) or they don't.
    You said you didn't want to talk about it but then you bring it up again. What do you think is manipulative about the options in the poll?
    Quote Originally Posted by Valerio View Post
    How does homosexuality occur? Biologically speaking? Where does it form, what biologically is the difference between a gay and a straight?
    There's a wikipedia page for that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology...al_orientation

    The short answer is that the science is far from settled but there are some promising lines of research. For the purposes of this thread it doesn't really matter what the real causes of homosexuality are. The issue here is ethical. What would be the right thing to do if the science turns out the way many people expect it to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Probably nothing. I would imagine it's just how their brain comes to be wired. 90% of the time a guy's neurons align to want some tang. 10% of the time they want some orange juice. Me? I'm an astronaut. It's like some people liking certain colors more than other colors. It's like some people liking Vanilla (me) instead of Chocolate. Its like Chocolate Chip cookies vs oatmeal raising (me again).

    I don't think it's really an issue. The most that could happen is my son wants to be my daughter. But realistically if my son looked like this I'd be loathe to call him my son. If medicine can make it all work, whatever. As long as they aren't going to chop me up to turn me into a lesbian.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I'm not going to freak out about it. It's weird, it's not bad.
    Sexual orientation (which gender you are attracted to) and gender identification (which gender you want to be) are independent. So whether you son wants to be your daughter doesn't have much to do with whether he (or she, depending on how you see things) is homosexual.

  13. #33
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    You said you didn't want to talk about it but then you bring it up again. What do you think is manipulative about the options in the poll?

    There's a wikipedia page for that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology...al_orientation

    The short answer is that the science is far from settled but there are some promising lines of research. For the purposes of this thread it doesn't really matter what the real causes of homosexuality are. The issue here is ethical. What would be the right thing to do if the science turns out the way many people expect it to?

    Sexual orientation (which gender you are attracted to) and gender identification (which gender you want to be) are independent. So whether you son wants to be your daughter doesn't have much to do with whether he (or she, depending on how you see things) is homosexual.
    I consider a boy who wants to be a girl to be gay. Either they're into guys and it's gay that they want to be a girl to get guys or they're into girls and want to be a girl and it's lesbian.

    It's pretty much infallible. All transgenders are gay but not all gays desire to be transgenders. But that's their prerogative. The real question is, would it be gay for me to get with a post op transgender? It would certainly be gay for them. So it would probably be gay for me. The younger they start the process the better it works out.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; April 20, 2012 at 03:00 AM.
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  14. #34

    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    Great thread, I'm going to have to put some thought into this one. My first inclination is to say yes...but who am I to fool with creation?

    I think I'd certainly have the test done..but I'm really ambivalent about the treatment.
    My guess is that if you had the test done, you would go ahead with the treatment, otherwise why do the test?

    As for fooling with creation, that applies only if you think it was created If you are like me and think it was evolved we look at evolution and say 'well that's cool but boy that part kinda sucks'. Messing with it is in itself nothing unholy.

    The dangerous part is knowing what to mess with, but we are already messing with it, and to great effect in things like farming. People scream and whine about it, but their solutions can't feed the planet.

    Being that for 99.9% of all species, extinction is the end result, nature NEEDS to be messed with. Large land animals like us have poor long term survival rates, we can't adapt fast enough. The way to ensure our continued survival until the energy death of the Universe will be self guided evolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    I consider a boy who wants to be a girl to be gay. Either they're into guys and it's gay that they want to be a girl to get guys or they're into girls and want to be a girl and it's lesbian.
    I think we are dealing with two very different developmental issues. Gender identity issues are different than homosexuality. Its obvious a FAR FAR different mindset that thinks 'cut the damn thing off' vrs 'I want to stick this damn thing inside men'.
    Last edited by Phier; April 20, 2012 at 10:12 AM.
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  15. #35

    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be cured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Hey I get to paraphrase Rush Limbaugh, always a good thread primer.

    One of his lines was that if a gay gene is ever truly discovered, the biggest switch you will ever see in politics will be the gay community becoming pro-life. I know thats not your question, but it is more likely we will be able to "detect" homosexuality before we can cure it, and you can expect a hefty dose of abortions will follow across the globe.

    But thats not your thread.

    I of course agree with you that the treatment and test should be legal and should be not required.

    I would have no problems if my children were gay, but on the other hand I'd use the treatment in a heartbeat if the option were there. I'd think it would be in the best interest of my child, especially in a world where you can pick.

    This one is really mostly a no-brainer. The fun would be when we can determine things like height, IQ, personality, etc.
    I don't think it is. I certainly wouldn't want to determine the sexuality of a child of mine. If I had a gay child I would never wish they were straight. In my experience it has no affect on the well-being of the child. I've never seen homophobic bullying although obviously it exists.

    I suppose have experienced a far less liberal society than I have, and as a college student I live in a very liberal subsection of society. So I assume that's why your opinion is different. And I suppose you also have children, I'm not sure how much that has to do with it.

    However it's perfectly valid to just not want homosexuals for aesthetic reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Being that for 99.9% of all species, extinction is the end result, nature NEEDS to be messed with. Large land animals like us have poor long term survival rates, we can't adapt fast enough. The way to ensure our continued survival until the energy death of the Universe will be self guided evolution.
    I assume a gene that causes homosexuality in certain people is evolutionary beneficial for iterations of that gene in other people. Although perhaps that no longer applies to today's society, but it presumably did at some point. Homosexuals do have children though. I know a gay man and a lesbian who are close friends and say they will probably have children with each other when they are older and in committed relationships even though they aren't attracted to each other.

  16. #36
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    I think we are dealing with two very different developmental issues. Gender identity issues are different than homosexuality. Its obvious a FAR FAR different mindset that thinks 'cut the damn thing off' vrs 'I want to stick this damn thing inside men'.
    Yeah but you can't not be gay and be a transgender. Squares and rectangles. Buy yes, it comes from a different set of desires.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; April 20, 2012 at 11:58 AM.
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    ...or perhaps, at some time in the future, sexual orinetation won't be a divisive issue and there wouldn't be a need to reverse teh gayz.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Yeah but you can't not be gay and be a transgender. Squares and rectangles. Buy yes, it comes from a different set of desires.
    Yes you can. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blancha...alism_typology

    Many transexuals aren't homosexual, they are sexually attracted to the idea of themselves as the opposite sex, and having sex with their own sex is a part of that (even though they are not attracted to their own sex).

    Gay/straight doesn't even apply to a lot of sexuality. There are women who love the idea of being a lady's man in nightclubs and picking up women like a nightclub addict, even though they don't even like women and melt at attractive men. Same goes for men imagining themselves as slutty women. There are men who are attracted to women and femininity yet have a penis fetish. They don't like what penises are attached to however, so these are the people who are into strap-ons. They jack off imagining that women have penises and they have vaginas. There is a similar fetish among women, both for female genetalia and women who are attracted to the idea of themselves penis because they associate it with sexual dominance.

    Apologies for my frankness, but current black and white labels are woefully inadequate to describe anything but two specific sexualities. It's not even a continuum. It's like asking whether bananas are apples or oranges, and where they fit along the apple-orange continuum.
    Last edited by removeduser_4536284751384; April 20, 2012 at 12:41 PM.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be cured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    What if you could make your child gay?
    Well that's the thing, isn't it? If parents get the choice, then they, either through action or inaction, become responsible for their children's sexual orientation. I'm not sure that's a healthy situation, tbh.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  20. #40

    Default Re: Suppose homosexuality could be cured.

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    I don't think it is. I certainly wouldn't want to determine the sexuality of a child of mine. If I had a gay child I would never wish they were straight. In my experience it has no affect on the well-being of the child. I've never seen homophobic bullying although obviously it exists.

    I suppose have experienced a far less liberal society than I have, and as a college student I live in a very liberal subsection of society. So I assume that's why your opinion is different. And I suppose you also have children, I'm not sure how much that has to do with it.

    However it's perfectly valid to just not want homosexuals for aesthetic reasons.
    One of the things which can't really be explained to anyone is being a parent. I'd not wish my children to be either denied that due to sexuality, or making the process very difficult.

    Even if there were no social issues at all with being gay, I'd rather my child be straight for this alone.

    I assume a gene that causes homosexuality in certain people is evolutionary beneficial for iterations of that gene in other people. Although perhaps that no longer applies to today's society, but it presumably did at some point. Homosexuals do have children though. I know a gay man and a lesbian who are close friends and say they will probably have children with each other when they are older and in committed relationships even though they aren't attracted to each other.
    The genes for homosexuality may have no evolutionary benefit for those that are homosexual, in fact I'd argue they do not. They might have evolutionary benefit to the females that have them or perhaps even to males that have them but do not become homosexuals, this might override the loss of fitness for gay men in terms of genetic balance. My guess is any "cure" for homosexuality is not going to be at the genetic level but the expression level.
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