French Riflemen

[Dynamo11]

I still believe the British were able to revoloutinse the way rifle battalions were deployed and used. Randall the French may have been better trained but with a musket it would've accounted for nothing.
Imagine having a water gun you could soak your friend with he, he can fire his more often but falls short of his target (you).

However to get PROPERLY on topic then CA could have Voltigeurs but whether they'd give them rifles or not is another question.
For the exact same reason i just gave for balance they'd give the Voltigeurs rifles to counter my Rifle battalions, but could up the stats so they are more deadly up close with muskets instead.

Bah, I don't really care at this point it's Prussia and Britain for me!

[REQUIEM]

Napoleon hated rifles, they may have been more accurate but they were slower to reload and required a different ammunition this were the feat which napoleon hated.

[(HG-F)Ipod]

Originally Posted by REQUIEM

Napoleon hated rifles, they may have been more accurate but they were slower to reload and required a different ammunition this were the feat which napoleon hated.

This is not well represented in Empire. Fusiliers shoot the same times as the lineinfantry, and it isn't correct. In the Napoleonic wars, the lineinfantry shoot three times more than fusiliers. Please, this for 1.4 patch!

[lordhedgwich]

Fusiliers still use muskets they are just better shots with them =D

[Der Löwe]

There where some use of rifles by the french. Individual officers and NCO used them as marksmen. Also I belive the british riflemen could use their rifles by not using a normal "wraping cloth", this way they didnt need to hammer the ball down using a club. At long distances and in skimish they used wraping to make the ball spinn and in formation as line infantry close up they could fire their rifles without wraping with shorter reload time.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14597569/Weapons-Equipment-of-the-Napoleonic-Wars

[JaM]

actually - French Tirailleurs were in the begining equipped with rifles, but they complained a lot about them, and requested to get standard musket, so they got them - they just preffered fast reloading vs long range ability - from our view it might look silly - but you must look at it from 19.century combat perspective - after few minutes of combat, whole battlefield was full of smoke - long range accurate fire was not possible in such situation, close range engagement was more common - in such situation, long range, but extremely slow to reload rifle was inferior to standard musket - it took about 60 seconds to load a rifle, but skilled soldier could load a musket in 15 seconds or even faster (French light infantry were thought to be able to fire 6 rounds per minute in training, 4 rounds per minute in fight) - musket was more than accurate at such short ranges especially if you know how to use it....

[Randall Turner]

Yep, and this is the "other" (w/Cavalry) area ETW got sorta-wrong. Skirmishers in general, neh, acceptable. French late-period** skirmisher doctrine & effectiveness, not well represented. Riflemen's effectiveness particularly w/respect to ROF, just plain silly.

** - one could argue that French skirmisher dominance fell just outside the portrayed period, but then one would be hard-pressed to justify Baker rifle units.

[Duke of Orleans]

yes napoleon hated to use rifle units.

[RO Citizen]

I say France should have no riflemen, they still have a better army. But they should have light infantry (90 range if we talk in ETW style), like Chasseurs or Voltigeurs

[Grognard_Admiral]

Or both. But still France should be more cavalry and artillery-oriented.

[RO Citizen]

Originally Posted by Grognard_Admiral

Or both. But still France should be more cavalry and artillery-oriented.

Yep, but still they should be more balanced than other factions. They had great infantry too.

[Grognard_Admiral]

Yep, but still they should be more balanced than other factions. They had great infantry too.

No doubts about that, but still their line infantry was not as good as say prussian or british. I say France should have average line infantry, good lights and very strong but expensive guards. If you ever played Napoleonic 2 Total War you'd understand how do I see it.

[RO Citizen]

No, I don't have RTW, but yes, your argument is good.

[Grognard_Admiral]

There was one more good point in N2TW. French infantry had the best stamina of all infantry units, which meant they could cover huge distances and get into the battle immediatly upon arrival. That however newer worked with units of other countries - they simply got tired and were not as effective as french. As a result the french were capable of simply outmaneuvering their enemies, just the same way as it often happened in reality.

[Didz]

Originally Posted by GeneralAlzheimer

the only riflemen worth speaking of are the 95th and the 60th regiments of British foot. the Sharpe's rifles. the Baker rifle was unique.

There were also several German Rifle units, and all German battalions had sharpshooter detachments armed with Baker Rifles. (Which is probably where Bernard Cornwell got his idea for having Sharps detachment attached to the South Essex).

The Austrian's also had rifle regiments as did the Portueguese and the Prussians had Shutzen units attached to their battalions armed with rifles. The Brunswick Corps had a battalion of Jager armed with Rifles at Waterloo and the Russian's had rifle armed jager battalions.

However, as far as I know the French national army did not use rifles, however, some of its foriegn/allied units were almost certainly armed with rifles, unless they were rearmed after liberation But I suspect they had rifles all along.

Originally Posted by (HG-F)Ipod

The voltigeurs used rifles, but Napoleón did't like it. However, they used.

As far as I'm aware Volitguer was merely the term used to refer to the light infantry company of a Line Infantry Regiment, and they were armed with the standard French Light Infantry musket, initially this would have been the1777 Model Infantry Musket, later issued in a slightly modified form after 1801.

If you have evidence that some line battalions equipped their volitguers with rifles I'd be interested to know which regiments and which rifle was used, as it would be something I've not come across.

[Marcus Licinius]

There were officers rased from the ranks on all armies, and its just as Wellington say's in the first epp. 'You've done me a damn good favour, now i'm going to do you a damn bad one, i'm giving you a field commision Sharpe'
which effectively means that when the regement in this case one of the Highlander's that were in India at the time (i think the 42nd) he would return to the rank below which in this case is RSM

[Capt Fozdike]

No they didn't use any rifles in this era. Napoleon didn't like rifles, I think that the Voltigeurs used muskets.

[Godless Pickle]

The question is why did Napoleon hate the rifle? They were such an advantage in battle, I dont see why a Commander would despise it...

[Sol Invictus]

Some commanders, even British, thought that rifles took too long to load and the riflemen would be too vulnerable on the battlefield. It is my understanding that the French did issue some of their Voltigeurs with rifles on an experimental basis but the Voltigeurs demanded their muskets back because they preferred them. I cannot remember the source unfortunately.

[Didz]

Originally Posted by Godless Pickle

The question is why did Napoleon hate the rifle? They were such an advantage in battle, I dont see why a Commander would despise it...

I don't think he considered them appropriate to the qualities he wishes to inspire in his men. The rifle with its longer range and accuracy actually encouraged its owner to keep his distance from the enemy and spend time in sniping. Napoleon beleived that battle was essentially a psychological contest in which one side should seek to impose its dominance on the other by rapid and aggressive advances. Therefore, he did not want men stopping to take time to snipe at the enemy he expected his men, even his skirmishers to constantly be pushing forward into close range and forcing the enemy to give ground. In that respect he probably considered the riflemen ranged against him as a potential weakness as he would assume that they would constantly fall back to extent the range in order to keep their advantage.

Originally Posted by Sol Invictus

Some commanders, even British, thought that rifles took too long to load and the riflemen would be too vulnerable on the battlefield.

This is a myth perpretated by some badly researched early wargame rules. In fact, the Baker rifle could be loaded and fired as fast as a standard musket, all the riflemen had to do was omit the leather patch that wrapped the ball and engaged the rifling. Without the patch the ball dropped down the rifle barrle just like a standard musket shot and could be loaded and fired at three rounds per minute, albiet with lesser accuracy than a rifle shot.

In his book Mark Urban even notes that some Riflemen deliberately omitted the leather patch even when firing at long range as it reduced the kick when the rifle fired thus making the weapon less painful to their shoulders, and in prolonged engagements this was often more tempting than the accuracy.