Transgender Bathroom Rights Bill Passed By California Lawmakers

[alex man142]

God you people....

I have to say, if you're going to post in a thread the least you could do is ing read it first...

Being a tomboy...

For s sake being a Tomboy isn't being transgendered. My god man. If she were transgendered shew wouldn't just be a tomboy, she'd have been so mind numbbingly uncomfortable and disgusted with the fact that she is, in effect, trapped in what she feels is the wrong body that she would be constantly depressed, violently ill, and oft suicidal until she found that she had ways to change that. But did your sister feel like she wasn't really a woman inside? No? Then your example is full of .

I'm not even going to bother anymore, this is pointless, it's like arguing physics with a tree.

Just enough, it's clear that you don't understand anything. Your priest might be "amazing" but there is nothing that can fix gender dysphoria other than transition. Nothing. It's not like schizophrenia where there is a clear basis that it's harmful to the person with it and others, where we can clearly identify it as a detriment, where we have resources available to treat it. You don't "cure" it because there is nothing WRONG with it. I mean to "cure" it you'd have to re-write their genetic wiring. Transgendered people dealt with their urges the same way homosexuals did. They repressed them or expressed them in the best ways they could and hoped that they wouldn't be caught and killed. But I suppose that's the world you'd like to live in isn't it?

And I swear because I'm sick of baseless ignorance and the willful desire to not learn. You're not trying to learn anything about this, you're not trying to understand that you're wrong, you're not supporting your position with anything other than baseless assertions and empty analogies. I'v presented facts, I'v presented documents, I'v presented first hand experience accounts. Yet here you are preaching the same thing you were 10 pages ago without acknowledging that anything anybody else in this thread has said could even be marginally true. And that sort of willful ignorance just pisses me off to no ing end.

Don't like me swearing at you? Then educate yourself on something before you make the attempt to play expert about it.

The reason that I seem to be ignoring you is because we come from radically differing assumptions; both of which can be correct. Me, I'm a conservative Afrikaner, my people have been oppressed from day one just because we want to live in Africa among our own kind. Africa is my home.

Why am I saying that when it clearly has nothing to do with our topic? It does, in a way. As a native African, we have been under colonial regimes. Most Africans are either Christian or Muslim. The average African sees these things (homosexuality and transgenderism) as imports from a decadent west. I was the first from my family to go to a university and my dad sent me here, to America. Little did he know how messed up this country is.

I have seen many things; drugs, 'casual' sex, transvestites, and other sick things that I have formed an admitted barrier to all things decadent. Anything championed by liberals I tone out because after I saw all the things that they support; abortion, homosexual marriage, casual sex, abortion drugs, and radical women I hate social liberalism. I hate it and anything it supports. It is, in my view, the source of most of today's ills.

Now, from the way that you explain it, I can sympathize with transgender rights and would gladly jump on the bandwagon, but as with EVERYTHING social liberals advocate, there is a dark side. I don't know what it is, but there is a deeper, anti Christian agenda going on and that I refuse to support. From the way that liberals describe everything, it sounds great, but there is something afoot with everything that they support.

That's my point of view. See, now that you understand my perspective we can move on from the swearing yah?

[Slydessertfox]

Homosexuality is imported from the west? What? You do know there is homosexuality found in other animals correct?

. I don't know what it is, but there is a deeper, anti Christian agenda going on and that I refuse to support.

Oh boy, a conspiracy theory. Take off the tinfoil hat. Giving people rights they deserve that don't oppress anyone is not invoking some anti-Christian conspiracy agenda. Especially considering you know, there are plenty of Christians who support it.

[frozenprince]

So, you don't support it because of some unseen "dark force" beneath the issue? That's.... I'm sorry.

But that's stupid. And no, why would I move on from the swearing? It had nothing to do with understanding your perspective and everything to do with the fact that you're still being willfully ignorant and preventing peoples rights because... I don't know. The lizard people are behind it? I just, there are no dark forces at play here. I nor anyone else cares if you're a christian or not. But you have no right to impose your theological beliefs and the beliefs of the culture you come from upon people advocating for a basic rights and against discrimination. There is no deep dark conspiracy against Christianity in this country. How you see that, I have no idea.

And please don't tell me about discrimination or oppression like I don't know what it's like.

[removeduser_487563287433]

There is no messing with nature.

Ask him about circumcision. He's a-ok messing with nature there.

[Roma_Victrix]

The average African sees these things (homosexuality and transgenderism) as imports from a decadent west.

Full stop.

Homosexual relationships have been documented since the dawn of civilization, my friend. We see it in ancient Egypt. Ancient China. Ancient India. The ancient Near East. Ancient Greece and Rome. The early modern British Empire with their Molly Houses. Basically anywhere that has had people. The enormous continent of Africa isn't some special place where homosexuality didn't exist previously. That grandiose assumption is deluded beyond words.

That said, with certain African nations having laws on the books outright banning homosexuality, I think you may be right about the "average" African's presumptions regarding homosexuality.

[frozenprince]

Not to mention he advocates Ex-Gay therapy. I mean I'm pretty sure that making someone hate themselves for who they are is, by it's very definition, messing with nature.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's totally arbitrary. It's basically - this is my small minded bible belt understanding things, everything else must be wrong.

[frozenprince]

I'v been saying that for three pages now. It's what pisses me off most about the Mudpit, you repeat yourself trying to give these people just a little more knowledge until you want to slam your head into a rock. But they never ing listen.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's not for them. It's for everybody else reading and making their own conclusions.

[Helel]

I'v been saying that for three pages now. It's what pisses me off most about the Mudpit, you repeat yourself trying to give these people just a little more knowledge until you want to slam your head into a rock. But they never ing listen.

Though they may not say it or admit it, even people who disagree with you consider your arguments if they are eloquent and true. The trick is to maintain eloquence and truthfulness.

[frozenprince]

It's not for them. It's for everybody else reading and making their own conclusions.

True enough.

[Col. Tartleton]

The reason that I seem to be ignoring you is because we come from radically differing assumptions; both of which can be correct. Me, I'm a conservative Afrikaner, my people have been oppressed from day one just because we want to live in Africa among our own kind. Africa is my home.

Yeah, and America is my home and we are the bleeding edge of the West. Africa is the trailing tail of the East, only just awakening to what's been happening.

Why am I saying that when it clearly has nothing to do with our topic? It does, in a way. As a native African, we have been under colonial regimes. Most Africans are either Christian or Muslim. The average African sees these things (homosexuality and transgenderism) as imports from a decadent west. I was the first from my family to go to a university and my dad sent me here, to America. Little did he know how messed up this country is.

It's not messed up. Well, not for the reasons you're attributing to it.

I have seen many things; drugs, 'casual' sex, transvestites, and other sick things that I have formed an admitted barrier to all things decadent. Anything championed by liberals I tone out because after I saw all the things that they support; abortion, homosexual marriage, casual sex, abortion drugs, and radical women I hate social liberalism. I hate it and anything it supports. It is, in my view, the source of most of today's ills.

Yeah, but that attitude is way more gay than wanting to have sex with a man.

Now, from the way that you explain it, I can sympathize with transgender rights and would gladly jump on the bandwagon, but as with EVERYTHING social liberals advocate, there is a dark side. I don't know what it is, but there is a deeper, anti Christian agenda going on and that I refuse to support. From the way that liberals describe everything, it sounds great, but there is something afoot with everything that they support.

You're stuck in a weird modern sort of Christianity divorced from the religion of actual people. When Christianity was at it's strongest as the moral bedrock of western society we had monks getting it on with prostitutes, murderers buying their way into heaven, and everyone was looking for loop holes.

You're some sort of Calvinist right? So why bother? God will save you or he won't. Your thoughts and behaviors are irrelevant. You can live like the dead and hope you die like the living, or you can screw around and if God is as loving as everyone thinks he is, he'll keep you around.

That's my point of view. See, now that you understand my perspective we can move on from the swearing yah?

that.

[Himster]

I admit, my view is based on my opinion, but as is yours. There is no evidence to support your view either. Rarely is there. I'm not a bigot either

My utilitarian position is supported by the law and has so far been demonstrated as the least oppressive legal model for this particular issue. In support of your case against minorities getting the rights they deserve is simply quoting a non-applicable religious document: not a good political/legal argument.

Most of what I saw against alex was "your ideas are wrong because they offend my feelings" "your rights end where my feelings begin"

Good for you.
But in reality did I stop him from voicing his opinion? No. I just pointed out that what he was saying was stupid, I'm not offended by stupidity.
So there goes your hypothesis right out the window.

[fkizz]

So like.. does that mean that even though I have a dick in my pants, I can walk around claiming "I'm a girl in a man's body" and walk into and even use the women's restroom?

Well yes. That's why the law is silly, despite having a good intention to protect transgendered people. They should be protected in some other form. This will only help to see them more as outcasts.

No. I just pointed out that what he was saying was stupid, I'm not offended by stupidity.
So there goes your hypothesis right out the window.

My hipothesis was never that you get offended by stupidity, so saying that my hipothesis goes out of the window is a non sequiter. I merely said that most of your posts are an appeal to emotion rather than an appeal to reason. Most of what you said is like "your stupid bigoted opinion goes against my feelings!"

In what way is this suposed to be debating?

[alex man142]

Homosexuality is imported from the west? What? You do know there is homosexuality found in other animals correct?
Oh boy, a conspiracy theory. Take off the tinfoil hat. Giving people rights they deserve that don't oppress anyone is not invoking some anti-Christian conspiracy agenda. Especially considering you know, there are plenty of Christians who support it.

1. I know that that view is incorrect. I simply consider it to be a sin on a similar token to straights having sex out of marriage.

2. Plenty of Christians support homosexuality, but that doesn't make it right. Trust me, this is anti-Christian. When some Christian business owner refuses to let a man use the women's room, there will be lawsuits.

So, you don't support it because of some unseen "dark force" beneath the issue? That's.... I'm sorry.

But that's stupid. And no, why would I move on from the swearing? It had nothing to do with understanding your perspective and everything to do with the fact that you're still being willfully ignorant and preventing peoples rights because... I don't know. The lizard people are behind it? I just, there are no dark forces at play here. I nor anyone else cares if you're a christian or not. But you have no right to impose your theological beliefs and the beliefs of the culture you come from upon people advocating for a basic rights and against discrimination. There is no deep dark conspiracy against Christianity in this country. How you see that, I have no idea.

And please don't tell me about discrimination or oppression like I don't know what it's like.

1. There always is. Look at abortion. From the liberal description it is amazing and even I would support it. As always, there is something darker beneath the sunny veneer.

2. Lizard people......? Is that what you think I believe? Do you honestly think that? I'm shocked. I've had my views mistaken in the past but never like that. You have lots of pent up contempt for people and need to learn how to show some kindness.

3. And you have no right to force social liberalism on me! I will fight it to the day I die. Just look at the courts; they want to force all sorts of things on people. The fact that California passed this bill does not inspire any confidence.

4. You don't know discrimination. My cousin and his family were killed by pouring boiling water down their throats just because they were white.

Ask him about circumcision. He's a-ok messing with nature there.

Not really. Circumcision does not change you as a person while changing your born gender does.

Full stop.

Homosexual relationships have been documented since the dawn of civilization, my friend. We see it in ancient Egypt. Ancient China. Ancient India. The ancient Near East. Ancient Greece and Rome. The early modern British Empire with their Molly Houses. Basically anywhere that has had people. The enormous continent of Africa isn't some special place where homosexuality didn't exist previously. That grandiose assumption is deluded beyond words.

That said, with certain African nations having laws on the books outright banning homosexuality, I think you may be right about the "average" African's presumptions regarding homosexuality.

Of course I agree with you. I know more things than the average African.

Not to mention he advocates Ex-Gay therapy. I mean I'm pretty sure that making someone hate themselves for who they are is, by it's very definition, messing with nature.

Never ONCE DID I SAY THAT. I hate Ex-gay therapy. It doesn't work and does more damage than good. What I HAVE SAID is that my friend, who's married with four kids, is still gay and he always will be. He struggles like we all do with keeping sex just to our opposite sex spouse. I do all time time. Like I said before, I would really love a harem.

It's totally arbitrary. It's basically - this is my small minded bible belt understanding things, everything else must be wrong.

Not really. I married an atheist (but now she's a Christian thankfully) and she converted me to theistic evolution. I'm quite open minded when people don't call me an ignorant fool and curse me down just because I have doubts as to the correctness of their "evidence".

I'v been saying that for three pages now. It's what pisses me off most about the Mudpit, you repeat yourself trying to give these people just a little more knowledge until you want to slam your head into a rock. But they never ing listen.

I listen, I just don't think that you have provided enough evidence. All you've done is call it a "FACT" and insulted me. Why would I listen to insults

It's not for them. It's for everybody else reading and making their own conclusions.

I agree, and based on all the cursing and swearing, I have decided not to support transgender rights.

Though they may not say it or admit it, even people who disagree with you consider your arguments if they are eloquent and true. The trick is to maintain eloquence and truthfulness.

Agreed.

Yeah, and America is my home and we are the bleeding edge of the West. Africa is the trailing tail of the East, only just awakening to what's been happening.
It's not messed up. Well, not for the reasons you're attributing to it.
Yeah, but that attitude is way more gay than wanting to have sex with a man.
You're stuck in a weird modern sort of Christianity divorced from the religion of actual people. When Christianity was at it's strongest as the moral bedrock of western society we had monks getting it on with prostitutes, murderers buying their way into heaven, and everyone was looking for loop holes.
You're some sort of Calvinist right? So why bother? God will save you or he won't. Your thoughts and behaviors are irrelevant. You can live like the dead and hope you die like the living, or you can screw around and if God is as loving as everyone thinks he is, he'll keep you around.
that.

1. Africa is a beautiful land. If it weren't for unfair colonial governments it would be much nicer. Heck, my people have suffered so much.

2. Maybe not, but there is something inherently wrong with it.

3. Possibly I do admit I may be stubborn at times.

4. Those people sinned and I doubt that most were actual Christians but rather cultural Christians. I myself am an Ex-Anglican Catholic; I joined the catholic church because the Anglican church was becoming to liberal for my tastes.

God commanded us to be more like Him, so that's what I will try to do.

My utilitarian position is supported by the law and has so far been demonstrated as the least oppressive legal model for this particular issue. In support of your case against minorities getting the rights they deserve is simply quoting a non-applicable religious document: not a good political/legal argument.
Good for you.
But in reality did I stop him from voicing his opinion? No. I just pointed out that what he was saying was stupid, I'm not offended by stupidity.
So there goes your hypothesis right out the window.

Finally, some sense, but calling my views stupid doesn't help. Wrong? Maybe, but stupid get's us nowhere.

[Slydessertfox]

Allow me to bang my head against a wall.

1. I know that that view is incorrect. I simply consider it to be a sin on a similar token to straights having sex out of marriage.

What are you going on about now?

2. Plenty of Christians support homosexuality, but that doesn't make it right. Trust me, this is anti-Christian. When some Christian business owner refuses to let a man use the women's room, there will be lawsuits.

No, because a man can't use the women's bathroom. This is really ing simple. A TRANSGENDER person can use what bathroom he/she chooses. A man can not use a women's bathroom and a woman can not use a women''s bathroom. In California, yes, if you prevent a transgender person from using the restroom of their choice, there will be a legal problem because it is discrimination. Whether you are Christian, atheist, muslim, jewish, hindu, buddhist, etc. This is not a part of some anti-Christian agenda. Please point me to where in the Bible it says "Thou can not let transgendered people choose thy own bathroom"? Either way, if you want laws based off of your religion, move to a theocracy. We live in a secular country and abide by secular laws.

Deal with it.

1. There always is. Look at abortion. From the liberal description it is amazing and even I would support it. As always, there is something darker beneath the sunny veneer.

All legalizing abortion is move it from the streets to the abortion clinic. Abortions will still happen whether you make it illegal or not. All legalizing it does is make it a lot safer than it would be on the street.

3. And you have no right to force social liberalism on me! I will fight it to the day I die. Just look at the courts; they want to force all sorts of things on people. The fact that California passed this bill does not inspire any confidence.

You do realize this argument could be used in the 60's for opposing the end of segregation right. I can just picture a KKK person claiming he is having social liberal views forced on him because blacks are now allowed to eat at the same restaurant as him. Grow up. This law has zero effect on you. You will go on with your life, as you are now.

[Himster]

calling my views stupid doesn't help. Wrong? Maybe, but stupid get's us nowhere.

Would you prefer if I lied?

And you have no right to force social liberalism on me!

This bill literally affects you in no way whatsoever. On the other hand you are trying to limit the rights of others based on stupid beliefs, you're entitled to your stupid beliefs, but you are not entitled to limit the rights of others because of those same stupid beliefs. Simple.

Slydessertfox A TRANSGENDER person can use what bathroom he/she chooses

I'd disagree with that: a transgender person can't choose their gender identity anymore than they can choose their sense of humour and therefore can't "choose" which bathroom they use, such things are dictated by biological and psychological conditions.

[alex man142]

Allow me to bang my head against a wall.
What are you going on about now?
No, because a man can't use the women's bathroom. This is really ing simple. A TRANSGENDER person can use what bathroom he/she chooses. A man can not use a women's bathroom and a woman can not use a women''s bathroom. In California, yes, if you prevent a transgender person from using the restroom of their choice, there will be a legal problem because it is discrimination. Whether you are Christian, atheist, muslim, jewish, hindu, buddhist, etc. This is not a part of some anti-Christian agenda. Please point me to where in the Bible it says "Thou can not let transgendered people choose thy own bathroom"? Either way, if you want laws based off of your religion, move to a theocracy. We live in a secular country and abide by secular laws.

Deal with it.

All legalizing abortion is move it from the streets to the abortion clinic. Abortions will still happen whether you make it illegal or not. All legalizing it does is make it a lot safer than it would be on the street.

You do realize this argument could be used in the 60's for opposing the end of segregation right. I can just picture a KKK person claiming he is having social liberal views forced on him because blacks are now allowed to eat at the same restaurant as him. Grow up. This law has zero effect on you. You will go on with your life, as you are now.

1. People claimed that I held to the average African view on homosexuality when I don't.

2. So now every secular country has to have all their laws go against religion?

You keep telling me that we are a secular country with secular laws. I agree. That doesn't mean that I can't call a law wrong and stupid when it is. This bill is stupid, this bill is wrong and because we live in a secular country, I can speak out against it. Of course I deal with it but I will fight it as will most Christians. Just look at how messed up this is http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1133831.html. I will fight this law as long as I am alive because it is stupid and wrong and idiotic and just messed up.

3. There's an easy way to prevent abortion; no sex until marriage and use contraceptives or abstain It has worked for me and for everyone who has abided by it.

4. I could say the same about abortion but I will fight abortion until the day that I die.

[Himster]

Just look at how messed up this is http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1133831.html. I will fight this law as long as I am alive because it is stupid and wrong and idiotic and just messed up.

Trying to limit the rights of others will get you into trouble in a secular country. If you don't want to live in a secular country: nobody is forcing you (unless you're minor).

So now every secular country has to have all their laws go against religion?

When a religious doctrine is counter-productive or encroaches on the rights of minorities, yes, the law will weigh in the favour of human decency rather than superstition.

[Slydessertfox]

\
2. So now every secular country has to have all their laws go against religion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat..._United_States

Have you ever read the constitution before?

You keep telling me that we are a secular country with secular laws. I agree. That doesn't mean that I can't call a law wrong and stupid when it is. This bill is stupid, this bill is wrong and because we live in a secular country, I can speak out against it. Of course I deal with it but I will fight it as will most Christians. Just look at how messed up this is http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1133831.html. I will fight this law as long as I am alive because it is stupid and wrong and idiotic and just messed up.

You are fighting against it because you want to impose your religious beliefs on others.

3. There's an easy way to prevent abortion; no sex until marriage and use contraceptives or abstain It has worked for me and for everyone who has abided by it.

That's the same argument used to limit the availability of contraception. Face it-people will have sex for the hell of it.

4. I could say the same about abortion but I will fight abortion until the day that I die.

How does abortion affect your life?