Early Byzantine roster: poor? Why do people think they are OP?

[Ferdiad]

Theres alos the fact that they were declining steadily(with a few exceptions) for most of their existence which would have affected things I bet.

[ksenagos]

On the lancers VS Scholarii.
1)Even without BGR you will need a citadel to build lancers while the building needed for the Scholarii is already there.How many citadels do you have you seen in your campaign.
2)Don't just look at the stats or how they compete against 1v1 every unit must play their role on the field.Chargers will charge brawlers will enjoy a melee.(btw one of the elite horse archers of the mongols is probably my all time favorite cavalry unit)

On the poor roster thing.
The Roman's main advantage for me is not only the money but the availability of most of their late professional units.Byz in early era start with a castle at Corinth.This castle can produce Scoutatii (with lv 3 barracks). Scoutatii own any spearman for the next 150-200 years + 1.5 times the number of units of sergeant spear-men+a replenish rate of 0.5(they take 3 turns to build though)....fully professional troops from 1100???And you don't see any advantage in this?The same goes for Fatimids(Saracen militia great value for money).
One time that i tried to play as the byz without BGR i could not stop my self from spamming full-stacks of professional troops.

I believe that Romans are OP and i am fine with that.It is always fun to have to play against a strong faction.They are the equivalent of the late era Mongols(blasphemy ) and when i feel like going on a rampage and wipe off everyone from the face of the planet i know which faction to choose....

Great unique roster interesting starting position(late era especially) a very amusing faction to play and the chance to revive the empire...



By the way the here is the Roman's unique ro(o)ster in all its glory along with their allies

[Ferdiad]

1)Loads, Most of my fortresses turn into Citadels eventually.

[AnthoniusII]

@ksenagos
My friend this is what CBUR was trying to show in all costs.
1st To teach/show players that medieval Romans (Byzantines) were a realy strong empire with very strong armies.
The causes that led to their decline is not this topic to discuss.
But there was a real decline and that is why we tried to keep both Pronoiarii and Latinikonand Archontopulla slightly weaker than any other knight style unit that apears after 1200AD.
But we must not forget that the game is still an "what if" one.
What if the Emperors would not be so corupted as they were in real?
What would be their armies pisibillities?
@MatrixStorm
Actually after the early arabic expansion Roman armies reformed at least twice before 1200AD.
Their changes had a common basis. Cavalry was the main force of strike when infantry was a 2ndary and defensive feature.
Late imperial legions had around 1000 men. This continued until 1200AD atleast but now each "legion" called Hilliarchea (unit of 1000 men) or Taxis (for cavalry units) or Drougos.
The company of 100 men was still called Centarchea and the leading officer
called Centarches (greek version of the word Centurion).
Names and orders changed for the 1st time durring the reign of Emperor Maurice but definatly durring the reing of Emperor Heracleus that found that soldiers could not understand latin orders us they spoke greek by 90%!!

[MatrixStorm]

Whoa, that sounds a bit desperate of the Byzantine Empire, 2 reforms in a short time.

BUt anyway, I also think that their unit roster is poor to be honest...

[Navajo Joe]

Whoa, that sounds a bit desperate of the Byzantine Empire, 2 reforms in a short time.

BUt anyway, I also think that their unit roster is poor to be honest...

In what way is their unit roster poor?

[Ichon]

It is funny how opinions can vary so much about ERE/Byzantines.

I consider early era Byzantines the strongest roster no question. Crusaders, Hungary, Portugal, Sicily, K-Shah, Cumans are the next most powerful based on roster and how easy it is to expand. Crusaders once get a couple castles have lots of very heavy cavalry and good infantry at low cost but ERE has all that as well as really good missile cavalry. Hungary has good cavalry and a nice position allowing rapid expansion if a human player rules. Portugal is poor but has easy access to N Africa rich lands and with Order knights and jinetes and can get AOR javelin infantry is in a good position early. Sicily has exceptional heavy cavalry, archers, and access to Italian militias and good position early. K-Shah has good cavalry and access to many AOR and mercenaries which are great early. Cumans have the most plentiful missile cavalry available early aside from ERE and no strong enemies immediately.

[MatrixStorm]

In what way is their unit roster poor?

The only units I can recruit are acritae, mounted acritae, toxotae, those javelinmen and contaratoi.
And in a way that I can't really set up a decent army since I can only recruit one (mounted) acritae and then have to wait another 5 turns to recruit another one.
But then again, I'm a noob to the M2TW recruiting system.

[Ferdiad]

Build better barracks...

[MatrixStorm]

Build better barracks...

Well that's the main problem, my settlements don't grow fast, like 2% and I'm keeping them on normal taxation.

[Navajo Joe]

MatrixStorm,

I had to check back on the thread to see that you are playing Early Era, can understand why you feel that those units are limited. I am sure that you have found Contartoi can hold the line, with your Acritae and Aconkistae, behind peppering them with Javelins. I have found Toxatae Archers reasonable, they can melee against less armoured troups and use fire arrows at the right time, they can be helpful.

Off course your Kingpin is the Athanoi, the most deadliest BG in the game, mercs are vital particuarly Turkopoles, Horse Archers rule

[MatrixStorm]

MatrixStorm,

I had to check back on the thread to see that you are playing Early Era, can understand why you feel that those units are limited. I am sure that you have found Contartoi can hold the line, with your Acritae and Aconkistae, behind peppering them with Javelins. I have found Toxatae Archers reasonable, they can melee against less armoured troups and use fire arrows at the right time, they can be helpful.

Off course your Kingpin is the Athanoi, the most deadliest BG in the game, mercs are vital particuarly Turkopoles, Horse Archers rule

Thanks for the tips.
I'm starting my 3rd campaign now as the Byzantine Empire, and am now trying to use another tactic: directly wage war with the Seljuks, while basing my armies on militia with toxotai and mercenaries.

I have, however, not played a single battle as this faction since i don't like to play with roughly ordened armies.
I usually made a 'legion system' in RTW (with RSII as a mod) with factions like Dacia or Cimbri (a German tribe), using the big unit rosters to include medium infantry line-holders, 2 heavy infantry to protect the flanks, some archers, javelinmen, 2 cavalry units and some speciality units depending on the foe (lancers against horse archer based armies, armour effective troops against heavy infantry armies etc.).
That's one of teh reasons I find it sad that the unit roster is so poor in my opinion.
But I'll try your tactic, thanks.

[Ferdiad]

Thanks for the tips.
I'm starting my 3rd campaign now as the Byzantine Empire, and am now trying to use another tactic: directly wage war with the Seljuks, while basing my armies on militia with toxotai and mercenaries.

I have, however, not played a single battle as this faction since i don't like to play with roughly ordened armies.
I usually made a 'legion system' in RTW (with RSII as a mod) with factions like Dacia or Cimbri (a German tribe), using the big unit rosters to include medium infantry line-holders, 2 heavy infantry to protect the flanks, some archers, javelinmen, 2 cavalry units and some speciality units depending on the foe (lancers against horse archer based armies, armour effective troops against heavy infantry armies etc.).
That's one of teh reasons I find it sad that the unit roster is so poor in my opinion.
But I'll try your tactic, thanks.

Main reason I play all SS is this.

[Ichon]

The only units I can recruit are acritae, mounted acritae, toxotae, those javelinmen and contaratoi.
And in a way that I can't really set up a decent army since I can only recruit one (mounted) acritae and then have to wait another 5 turns to recruit another one.
But then again, I'm a noob to the M2TW recruiting system.

What turn are you on? Early era takes 30-40 turns to have a chance much of anything decent but that is with every faction. Once you get a castle and some better barracks before turn 50 ERE roster will wipe everything other factions have so early.

[MatrixStorm]

Stopped around 35 I think.

[Gogolometro]

I play extensive the byzantine faction. First right choice is to make turks allys.
Second is to get Arta, Scopia and Sofia.
The big difference from Rome is the charge power of cavalry. Don't focus infantry. Charge with athanatoi, use contaroi and toxotai and watch development at Corinth. You will get very soon acritae, scutatoi and murtadoi.
And if things became o bit nasty, use the scolari reserves.

[MatrixStorm]

I play extensive the byzantine faction. First right choice is to make turks allys.
Second is to get Arta, Scopia and Sofia.
The big difference from Rome is the charge power of cavalry. Don't focus infantry. Charge with athanatoi, use contaroi and toxotai and watch development at Corinth. You will get very soon acritae, scutatoi and murtadoi.
And if things became o bit nasty, use the scolari reserves.

I want to reconquer the old Roman Empire, so i'm only allying to nations outside those borders (like Kiev).

And not only that: I'm not a good cavalry user...

[Navajo Joe]

MatrixStorm,

Use your Contartoi to hold the line, hold the enemy in position, circle your Athanoi & Scholari around your flank, allow them to run and then a 180 turn, crashing them into the back of the enemy line, they will fall apart. On your other use some Horsearchers(Turkopoles), pepper the other flankwith arrows. I always advance my HA first, the enemy cavarly will usually chase after them, leaving your Athanoi and Scholari to finish the job

[MatrixStorm]

MatrixStorm,

Use your Contartoi to hold the line, hold the enemy in position, circle your Athanoi & Scholari around your flank, allow them to run and then a 180 turn, crashing them into the back of the enemy line, they will fall apart. On your other use some Horsearchers(Turkopoles), pepper the other flankwith arrows. I always advance my HA first, the enemy cavarly will usually chase after them, leaving your Athanoi and Scholari to finish the job

Hmm, this might work, thanks!

[Navajo Joe]

Hmm, this might work, thanks!

MatrixStorm,

I am playing as Byzantine Empire, so I would recommend Late Campaign, Gracul AI, BGR2, Assim Script, G5 Battle AI and Perm Watchtowers, naturally with RR. You won't look back, its the best campaign I have ever played