Transgender Bathroom Rights Bill Passed By California Lawmakers

[Slydessertfox]

surprising how much people bombarded alex man142 with insults simply because he is against a law that despites its good intentions, is totally silly in practice. I guess having your own opinion instead of going with the crowd in TWC justifies being called ignorant and bigot... what a sad display.

Aren't you such a selective reader. We don't despise him for opposing the law. We despise him for his reasons for opposing the law:which if you haven't noticed, were him wanting to impose his religious beliefs on others.

But hey, keep up the selective reading.

[fkizz]

Aren't you such a selective reader. We don't despise him for opposing the law. We despise him for his reasons for opposing the law:which if you haven't noticed, were him wanting to impose his religious beliefs on others.

But hey, keep up the selective reading.

It wasn't him who brought the religion card to the table. You guys did, and he explained what he believed in. It's called freedom of belief.

Honestly, the law has good intentions but in pragmatic terms is a silly naive law.

Albeit, one does not need to be religious to be repulsed by transsexuals. It's you guys with your anti christian paranoia (reminds me of the anti jew paranoia in some other cases) who always go "I bet the church is behind this!" like some other people go "I bet the jews did it!"

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Incredible baseless argument my friend, points to you- equating antisemitism to our discussion here. An intellectual leap indeed i'm sure.

Also...i'm anti-christian? Wow... that's interesting...

[Himster]

You guys did, and he explained what he believed in. It's called freedom of belief

People are allowed to have stupid opinions and voice bigoted concerns. We are also allowed to call people out on the bull they say.

[pacifism]

were him [alex man142] wanting to impose his religious beliefs on others.

You are acting as if you are not trying to impose your beliefs on him.

[fkizz]

People are allowed to have stupid opinions and voice bigoted concerns. We are also allowed to call people out on the bull they say.

I guess people are free to scorn your unwarrented butthurt in the post aswell. Insulting people who have different views from you.. If you can't handle oposite views without raging about the fact that people have different opinions from you, a debate section isn't the best place for you.

A place with homogeneous opinion can't be called a debate place anymore. People with different opinions are needed. Deal with it.

If you prefer a place where everyone agrees with you and validates you in a circlejerk, you can also always search for that.

antisemitism to our discussion here.

Most people bashed him for having conservative christian views, and christianism is technically a semitic religion.

But I got your idea. I didn't specifically refer to you, dante von hespburg. The people who I refered to know who they are, but you're not included.

[Himster]

I guess people are free to scorn your unwarrented butthurt in the post aswell. Insulting people who have different views from you.. If you can't handle oposite views without raging about the fact that people have different opinions from you, a debate section isn't the best place for you.

A place with homogeneous opinion can't be called a debate place anymore. People with different opinions are needed. Deal with it.

If you prefer a place where everyone agrees with you and validates you in a circlejerk, you can also always search for that.

I want people to have differing opinions to mine. I enjoy it when people offer no validation for their bigoted remarks, it makes me feel better about myself and my supportable positions. Why would I want to silence such people?
If you don't want people to negatively respond to your unsupported opinions then the debate forums are not for you.

Transgender people deserve rights, transgender people have rights and are getting rights in more and more places: deal with it, or don't, I don't care.

[alex man142]

To be honest, I'm quite used to being insulted. Every forum site I've been at has always been hostile to people like me; right wing conservatives who like video games. Do I like it? No, I wish that we could all get along.

Anyways, time to continue.

In essence, Paul's argument in Galatians is as follows:

1. Abraham believed and was he was described as righteous (Galatians 3:6-9)
This is significant because the Jews were saying that one needed to follow the law to be righteous but Paul counters but saying that Abraham was righteous by just having faith that God would fulfill His promise toward him.

2. The Law is a Curse but Jesus died became the curse to free us from it (Galatians 3: 10-14)
Many of the works of the law are under curses IE "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, to preform them. Paul notices that nobody is justified by The Law and this is obvious because God said, "The Righteous Man Shall Live by Faith." Jesus became a curse because in the law it says, "Cursed is everyone who Hangs on a Tree." Thus, Jesus became the curse so that we can receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

3. Intent of the Law (Galatians 3: 15-29)
Paul writes, "Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator." He describes the law a tutor. How is it a tutor? Well, the law is a tutor because it is impossible to follow. There are so many rules and regulations in it and it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow. Since everyone who breaks even one law is cursed, that means that everyone is cursed. Jesus however, does not work that way. The fact that the law is impossible to follow means that another method is required to reach the promise, and that way is faith. The law naturally leads people to faith.

"But the scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." The Law was made to show us how depraved we are. That is Jesus meant when talking about the law. He came not to destroy it, but to become it so that we can reach heaven by faith.

4. The Law is Slavery (Galatians 4: 8-11)
Paul compares the Law to slavery because that is exactly what it is. The Law is essentially self-defeating as it is impossible to truly follow the law.

5. Hagar and Sarah (Galatians 4:21 - 5:2)
I will do a quick backstory.

God came to Abraham one day and told him that he would have children as numberless as the sand on the seashore. There was an issue though; he was almost 100 years old and his wife was 90. Obviously, Sarah, his wife, did not believe this and proceeded to force Abraham to sire a child with her maid Hagar.

Paul uses this as an allegory. Sarah wanted to reach the promise using works so she used Hagar. Instead of waiting for God, she tried to reach the promise through her own means. She did have a child, but Ishmael was not the child that God wanted. After some time, Sarah received the true child of the promise, Isaac.

Paul compares those who follow the Law to be like Hagar; one who tried to get to the promise by works, which has already been shown to be impossible. Those who follow by faith are like Sarah (after she finally believed the promise).

Paul ends by exhorting the Galatian church to stay away from slavery and to be freed by faith. He ends his argument by telling them that circumcision, an ESSENTIAL part of the Law, is not needed as being circumcised is trying to reach the promise by works.

I hope that this helps a bit. The Law is trying to reach God through works which is impossible as the Law is impossible to follow. Faith is how one reaches God, not by the Law.

[alex man142]

I want people to have differing opinions to mine. I enjoy it when people offer no validation for their bigoted remarks, it makes me feel better about myself and my supportable positions. Why would I want to silence such people?
If you don't want people to negatively respond to your unsupported opinions then the debate forums are not for you.

Transgender people deserve rights, transgender people have rights and are getting rights in more and more places: deal with it, or don't, I don't care.

I admit, my view is based on my opinion, but as is yours. There is no evidence to support your view either. Rarely is there. I'm not a bigot either

[Slydessertfox]

To be honest, I'm quite used to being insulted. Every forum site I've been at has always been hostile to people like me; right wing conservatives who like video games. Do I like it? No, I wish that we could all get along.

Anyways, time to continue.

In essence, Paul's argument in Galatians is as follows:

1. Abraham believed and was he was described as righteous (Galatians 3:6-9)
This is significant because the Jews were saying that one needed to follow the law to be righteous but Paul counters but saying that Abraham was righteous by just having faith that God would fulfill His promise toward him.

2. The Law is a Curse but Jesus died became the curse to free us from it (Galatians 3: 10-14)
Many of the works of the law are under curses IE "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, to preform them. Paul notices that nobody is justified by The Law and this is obvious because God said, "The Righteous Man Shall Live by Faith." Jesus became a curse because in the law it says, "Cursed is everyone who Hangs on a Tree." Thus, Jesus became the curse so that we can receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

3. Intent of the Law (Galatians 3: 15-29)
Paul writes, "Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator." He describes the law a tutor. How is it a tutor? Well, the law is a tutor because it is impossible to follow. There are so many rules and regulations in it and it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow. Since everyone who breaks even one law is cursed, that means that everyone is cursed. Jesus however, does not work that way. The fact that the law is impossible to follow means that another method is required to reach the promise, and that way is faith. The law naturally leads people to faith.

"But the scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." The Law was made to show us how depraved we are. That is Jesus meant when talking about the law. He came not to destroy it, but to become it so that we can reach heaven by faith.

4. The Law is Slavery (Galatians 4: 8-11)
Paul compares the Law to slavery because that is exactly what it is. The Law is essentially self-defeating as it is impossible to truly follow the law.

5. Hagar and Sarah (Galatians 4:21 - 5:2)
I will do a quick backstory.

God came to Abraham one day and told him that he would have children as numberless as the sand on the seashore. There was an issue though; he was almost 100 years old and his wife was 90. Obviously, Sarah, his wife, did not believe this and proceeded to force Abraham to sire a child with her maid Hagar.

Paul uses this as an allegory. Sarah wanted to reach the promise using works so she used Hagar. Instead of waiting for God, she tried to reach the promise through her own means. She did have a child, but Ishmael was not the child that God wanted. After some time, Sarah received the true child of the promise, Isaac.

Paul compares those who follow the Law to be like Hagar; one who tried to get to the promise by works, which has already been shown to be impossible. Those who follow by faith are like Sarah (after she finally believed the promise).

Paul ends by exhorting the Galatian church to stay away from slavery and to be freed by faith. He ends his argument by telling them that circumcision, an ESSENTIAL part of the Law, is not needed as being circumcised is trying to reach the promise by works.

I hope that this helps a bit. The Law is trying to reach God through works which is impossible as the Law is impossible to follow. Faith is how one reaches God, not by the Law.

That would be good if I ever quoted Paul or Galatians.

You are acting as if you are not trying to impose your beliefs on him.

Because I'm not? Please tell me how explaining to him that opposing a law on religious grounds is baseless in our constitution, and explaining to him what a transgendered person is, is imposing my beliefs on him. I am pointing out basic facts, and pulling out direct quotes from the Bible he follows so fervently.

Try again.



And no, it is not an opinion what a transgendered person is. That's basic definitions.

[frozenprince]

No, our opinion is based on facts. You know, the FACTS that Transgendered people are real, the FACTS that they aren't boys or girls playing dress up, the FACTS that Transgendered people go through real issues every single day that you laugh off because in your little bubble world they aren't actually people and they don't actually exist.

It's not our fault that you're using your opinion to argue against the factual basis that being Trans isn't something to be disgusted for, hated for, or discriminated against for. You continue to argue that someone who is trans is incapable of not being the sex or gender they were born in. Trans people exist, they are real people, with a real problem, that face real discrimination every single day. Just because in your opinion ​they aren't doesn't make it fact. You are arguing AGAINST fact. You are factually incorrect, and have been factually incorrect. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

And you can continue to argue that biblical law is above the law of the land you live in all you like. But arguing that, guess what jack, doesn't make it any more or less factual. You are still bound by the laws of this country, not the laws of the book you happen to believe in.

http://www.webmd.com/sex/gender-identity-disorder
http://www.psychologytoday.com/condi...ntity-disorder
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-...roduction.aspx
http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Gender...ct%20Sheet.pdf

These. Are facts.

[fkizz]

If you don't want people to negatively respond to your unsupported opinions then the debate forums are not for you.

Well honestly there is a difference between an intellectual debate and a drama debate. Some of what I see here from your posts comes much closer to Jerry Springer and Soap Opera than say, a room of debate between intellectuals, or a philosophical school.

Having emotional woman-esque replies your posts on opinions that you don't like don't entitle you to being a debate, it entitles you to creating drama with your posts. There is a subtle difference.

Sometimes drama happens in intellectual debates, but when that happens it's the exception rather than the norm. Here it's the oposite, calm intellectual rational debate is the exception rather than the norm. Your posts help in this, as they are driven by emotions and feelings rather than rational deliberation.

Most of what I saw against alex was "your ideas are wrong because they offend my feelings" "your rights end where my feelings begin"

[alex man142]

No, our opinion is based on facts. You know, the FACTS that Transgendered people are real, the FACTS that they aren't boys or girls playing dress up, the FACTS that Transgendered people go through real issues every single day that you laugh off because in your little bubble world they aren't actually people and they don't actually exist.

It's not our fault that you're using your opinion to argue against the factual basis that being Trans isn't something to be disgusted for, hated for, or discriminated against for. You continue to argue that someone who is trans is incapable of not being the sex or gender they were born in. Trans people exist, they are real people, with a real problem, that face real discrimination every single day. Just because in your opinion ​they aren't doesn't make it fact. You are arguing AGAINST fact. You are factually incorrect, and have been factually incorrect. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

And you can continue to argue that biblical law is above the law of the land you live in all you like. But arguing that, guess what jack, doesn't make it any more or less factual. You are still bound by the laws of this country, not the laws of the book you happen to believe in.

1. I never said that trans-people aren't people I don't recall that at all.

I'm not the one forcing my views on anyone. You people are the people who think that gender is fluid when it's not. Your the people who want men to be able to play on women's teams when they are clearly stronger than men. You are the people who seem to believe that a man can simply become a woman just because he wants to. How is that not messed up?! I'm not the one who's letting SIX YEAR OLD KIDS be able to "decide" that they are not their gender. Ever heard of tomboy's? My sister was one.

Gender Identity Disorder exists, there, I said it. They NEED HELP, HELP. They face discrimination and whatnot and that needs to end as it only makes this worse. When we as a society however break down something as sacred and natural as gender, we are messing with nature. I have NO ISSUE with men acting like women and vice versa, I do have an issue with claiming that is somehow changing gender when it's not. A man becoming a woman is like a rat becoming a cat. They are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things and are exclusive from each other. You people hate the natural order, you people hate gender. I dare say it, you hate tradition and everything that is normal. You are the one's messing with nature, not me. If it weren't for modern technology, trans people couldn't change their gender.

I admit, my views are my opinion and are based on religion. I admit it, yes.

I am sick of tired of being labeled a bigot when I'm not.

That would be good if I ever quoted Paul or Galatians.
Because I'm not? Please tell me how explaining to him that opposing a law on religious grounds is baseless in our constitution, and explaining to him what a transgendered person is, is imposing my beliefs on him. I am pointing out basic facts, and pulling out direct quotes from the Bible he follows so fervently.
Try again.
And no, it is not an opinion what a transgendered person is. That's basic definitions.

1. Saint Paul's letters make up half of the New Testament. His epistles are Scripture and are the Word of God. Galatians is a book on faith and how we don't need to follow the Law anymore.

2. You want to put trans people in the women's bathroom, that's kinda forcing your views on me.

3. Agreed.

[frozenprince]

There is no messing with nature. FFS did you read any of the links I posted? The only way for people with Gender Dysphoria to get help is to be transitioned into their gender.

Just because you believe gender isn't fluid doesn't make that the bloody ing case.

Again.

Opinion. Not. Fact.

And boo hoo, you're sick of being labeled as a bigot? I'm sick of being labeled as a lot of things, but you learn to live with it don't you. There is a very easy way to stop being labeled as a bigot. Stop saying bigoted things. I don't care that you think these people need "help" from a bloody priest. Of course they don't, they need help from medical professionals to ensure that they can transition in a healthy way.

And I can play that too, without modern technology a lot of things we have today wouldn't be possible. Polio would still be killing people by the hundreds of thousands, the black ing plague would be rampant, diseases we can treat with a simple shot today would kill countless people. Medical advances happen, are you saying you don't want surgery on a torn knee because you couldn't have gotten it fixed that way when Jesus was cavorting around? Then what's the difference? It's treating a problem through medical care. Not some perverse act against nature, know why, because these peoples nature is that they NEED to transition. You're the one arguing against the natural course of options. Not I.

"You people". What do you know about me? Yeah, you're damn right I don't like the 'natural order'. Because until 30 ing years ago the 'natural order' was to put me in prison or at best a mental asylum and torture me until I feigned being a heterosexual. 'Natural order' resulted in great men, war heroes, taking their lives because they were condemned as 'unnatural'.

You're damn right I hate that order. But don't you dare act as if you're superior to me or anyone else because you're some crusader for empty traditions that should have died out centuries ago.

[Dalarna3]

This thread has been completely derailed into a debate about god and gay rights. Pretty disappointing.

[frozenprince]

No... it hasn't? Discussing Transgender rights in a thread... about transgendered issues... is kinda the whole point?

[Slydessertfox]

1. Saint Paul's letters make up half of the New Testament. His epistles are Scripture and are the Word of God. Galatians is a book on faith and how we don't need to follow the Law anymore.

Saint Paul can directly contradict Jesus' own words now?

2. You want to put trans people in the women's bathroom, that's kinda forcing your views on me.

That is forcing my beliefs on you in the same way that allowing white and black people to eat at the same restaurant during the civil rights era would be forcing my views on you.

[sleepyx732]

So like.. does that mean that even though I have a dick in my pants, I can walk around claiming "I'm a girl in a man's body" and walk into and even use the women's restroom?

Cause like..

[alex man142]

There is no messing with nature. FFS did you read any of the links I posted? The only way for people with Gender Dysphoria to get help is to be transitioned into their rgender. Just because you believe gender isn't fluid doesn't make that the bloody ing case.
Again
Opinion. Not. Fact.

And boo hoo, you're sick of being labeled as a bigot? I'm sick of being labeled as a lot of things, but you learn to live with it don't you. There is a very easy way to stop being labeled as a bigot. Stop saying bigoted things. I don't care that you think these people need "help" from a bloody priest. Of course they don't, they need help from medical professionals to ensure that they can transition in a healthy way. And I can play that too, without modern technology a lot of things we have today wouldn't be possible. Polio would still be killing people by the hundreds of thousands, the black ing plague would be rampant, diseases we can treat with a simple shot today would kill countless people. Medical advances happen, are you saying you don't want surgery on a torn knee because you couldn't have gotten it fixed that way when Jesus was cavorting around? Then what's the difference? It's treating a problem through medical care. Not some perverse act against nature, know why, because these peoples nature is that they NEED to transition. You're the one arguing against the natural course of options. Not I.
"You people". What do you know about me? Yeah, you're damn right I don't like the 'natural order'. Because until 30 ing years ago the 'natural order' was to put me in prison or at best a mental asylum and torture me until I feigned being a heterosexual. 'Natural order' resulted in great men, war heroes, taking their lives because they were condemned as 'unnatural'.

You're damn right I hate that order. But don't you dare act as if you're superior to me or anyone else because you're some crusader for empty traditions that should have died out centuries ago.

1. The only way?...

My sister was the biggest tomboy ever. If it weren't for some features she would be a male. She rooted for male things, loved male characters and played male sports. Today, liberal parents would give her hormone blockers to prevent her from developing into the woman that she is. My parents however, have sense. Now my sister is the most girly girly ever.

2. How is gender fluid? Explain that to me. Women have reproductive organs, men have testicles and a penis. I can't become a woman in the same way a cat can become a rat. FACT. Not opinion. Trans people can't give birth but a natural born woman can.

3. My priest has helped me out with many things. He is incredible. He has been shot at, tortured, lost his brother, has had malaria, done exorcisms and has even helped gay people deal with their unwanted attractions. He's amazing.

But in all honesty, they do need need help to get rid of GID. My wife has schizophrenia but medicine helps her think clearly. I'm 100% that we can develop a medicine that can get rid of GID and help them to live with their natural born gender.

Now, if they have features of both genders, then I have no qualm with them choosing what gender to be. It's these people who are clearly men who then 'decide' to switch who are messed up.

4. Transgender rights are very recent. If they need to transition then what have they been doing for the last Millenia? Even homosexuality was acknowledged back then.

5. You're the one with the superiority complex, not I. I am for the natural order and have a high view of gender. You don't. You hate gender. I dare say you hate women because you think that men can become women when that is impossible.

Men and Women are different and unique, DEAL with it. And why do you keep swearing? Personally, I think that you have no evidence and are running an emotional appeal. I am doing the same myself but at least I admit it.

Saint Paul can directly contradict Jesus' own words now?
That is forcing my beliefs on you in the same way that allowing white and black people to eat at the same restaurant during the civil rights era would be forcing my views on you.

Saint Paul is not contradicting Jesus. You are misunderstanding what Jesus said. I even addressed the verse in my outline of Galatians.

It is actually. Transtions this big need to be slow or else resentment grows. Just look at abortion. Roe V Wade was too fast to soon and now the pro-life movement is winning (which I consider to be a good thing myself)

[frozenprince]

God you people....

I have to say, if you're going to post in a thread the least you could do is ing read it first...

Being a tomboy...

For s sake being a Tomboy isn't being transgendered. My god man. If she were transgendered shew wouldn't just be a tomboy, she'd have been so mind numbbingly uncomfortable and disgusted with the fact that she is, in effect, trapped in what she feels is the wrong body that she would be constantly depressed, violently ill, and oft suicidal until she found that she had ways to change that. But did your sister feel like she wasn't really a woman inside? No? Then your example is full of .

I'm not even going to bother anymore, this is pointless, it's like arguing physics with a tree.

Just enough, it's clear that you don't understand anything. Your priest might be "amazing" but there is nothing that can fix gender dysphoria other than transition. Nothing. It's not like schizophrenia where there is a clear basis that it's harmful to the person with it and others, where we can clearly identify it as a detriment, where we have resources available to treat it. You don't "cure" it because there is nothing WRONG with it. I mean to "cure" it you'd have to re-write their genetic wiring. Transgendered people dealt with their urges the same way homosexuals did. They repressed them or expressed them in the best ways they could and hoped that they wouldn't be caught and killed. Homosexual rights are also very recent, so are racial rights, and the right of women to vote. Would you deny those people those rights simply because in the grand scheme of things they're "recent"? Trans people don't "choose" anything but being happy or being miserable, they had no choice about being trans like I had no choice about being gay. You can't just turn it off, you can't just "fix" it, you can't just make it go away by making a magical pill or *shudder* religious therapy. And I explained how gender is fluid. You didn't even acknowledge it. Gender, and sex, are two different things. Each can change, but one is fluid, with norms only decided by society, and the other is simply what set of genitals you're born with. Both, in today's world, can and do change. They need to transition or they'll be miserable and self loathing for the rest of their lives. But I suppose that's the world you'd like to live in isn't it? Where the church rules over our morality and if I wanted to be myself, well I'd just have to do that in prison or at the end of a noose wouldn't I?

And I swear because I'm sick of baseless ignorance and the willful desire to not learn. You're not trying to learn anything about this, you're not trying to understand that you're position may be wrong, you're not supporting your position with anything other than baseless assertions and empty analogies. I'v presented facts, I'v presented documents, I'v presented first hand experience accounts. Yet here you are preaching the same thing you were 10 pages ago without acknowledging that anything anybody else in this thread has said could even be marginally true. And that sort of willful ignorance just pisses me off to no ing end. And I'm sick of seeing it in this forum.

Don't like me swearing at you? Then educate yourself on something before you make the attempt to play expert about it.