units Frequently Asked Questions

[Urnamma]

The title of this thread is very general for a reason. It is to address anything to do with units (mainly) that I can answer better than other team members (because I have the info). I've noticed a lot of 'well, why can't faction x recruit units in province y' threads. Instead of having to track down all these threads, you guys can post here, I'll note it, and then we'll either fix it or I'll answer you directly on why it isn't there yet. Sound fair?

Because we haven't made it. Anyone who wants to write descriptions for buildings and what not that do not have them (and are willing to do the research), go ahead and take a crack at it. If we like it, we'll include it.

Recruitment areas that need to be addressed by more units:

Southern Italy:

Southern Italy will eventually have Italian units. Bruttians, Lucanians, Samnites et al. We know that the Romans can't recruit natives there yet, and we're working hard to address it.

Epirus:

The provinces north of epirus (Illyria and Noricum) will eventually have their own native units as well, Illyrians, Paionians, and Noricenes, for Epirus to recruit. Have patience. I need to find folks to skin said units. Until that happens, we can't add them :-)

If you want to ask a specific question regarding the recruitment or other incompleteness regarding the beta, I'll add it to this post, and then delete your reply (so that the thread doesn't become clogged).

Yes, we will be restricting recruitment to historical places (IE, no Iberian peasants in the sahara).

[Blizzard]

would eventualy a rage of recruitment as in RTR be implemented in a future release?
I think it would solve many problems - to quote some of them: iberian velites available to recruit all over Sahara
thanks

[QwertyMIDX]

We having something a lot more complex going in, it's just only partially implemented as of now.

[Fondor_Yards]

As Bactria, even will a fully barrack in their starting city, you can't recruit bactrian agema, pheraspidai, or hetairoi. Is this because I havn't spilt with the Seleucid Empire yet/havn't fought their pheraspidai/hetairoi/hypaspistai or because I simply can't?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards

As Bactria, even will a fully barrack in their starting city, you can't recruit bactrian agema, pheraspidai, or hetairoi. Is this because I havn't spilt with the Seleucid Empire yet/havn't fought their pheraspidai/hetairoi/hypaspistai or because I simply can't?

Definitely post it in the unit recruitment problem thread. This is exactly what they are working on and need to know.

If the unit is clearly a baktrian unit and is available in custom battles by them, but is not recruitable in the game despite having a type1 gov and MIC5, then there is a unit recruitment problem that they need to know about. BigJohn is working hard to solve problems like this, just let him know about it.

[Big_John]

indeed, please post unit recruitment oddities/problems in this thread:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40870

that said, the issue with baktrian agema and with all successor pheraspidai, hypaspistai, and hetairoi has been fixed for the coming patch.

[Dantheman102100]

Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

...but have not and do not plan to change the Gesaetae, other than making the unit smaller (which I have already done).

Tell me you are kidding. Those guys are way to strong in my opinion. I was in a battle once where I managed to defeat all of the AI's army. All that was left was a Gesaetae. I thought, oh yeah, I've won this battle. So I send one princeps and a hastati, both having 2 gold cheverons. I got the princeps to attack the front, and at the same time hastati from the back, supported by many units of cavalry (like 3 or 4) I let them attack, and ALL OF THESE UNITS WERE ROUTED, WITH VAST CASUALTIES! They had only lost 15 or so people. I withdrew all forces. I sent 3 triarii in phalanx formation and tricked the Gesaetae into attacking their front. I finally defeated them with the triarii phalanx, but geez! One full stack of Gesaetae would be able to single handedly conquer at least 3 full stacks of the best Rome has to offer. I think they are overpowered.

You say that you beef them up so that the barbs have a chance against the civilized factions, but I don't understand what makes the civilized factions such a large threat to these barbs, where you need to give the barbs a helping hand.

[Bonheddwr]

In my Epirios campaign I can recruit Samnite heavy infantry as mercenaries in southern Italy, yet despite what what my barracks say, I can't recruit them as regulars. Is this on purpose? Also the Samnite heavy infantry seems a little odd because they are inferior in attack yet more expensive than the Samnite spearmen.

[Watchman]

Those funny choppers the Samnite heavies have are, like apparently about all other kopis/falcata/machaira -type swords in the game, ap. 'Nuff said really.

I think they had higher lethality rate too, but that's really a bit peripheral.

[QwertyMIDX]

Originally Posted by Dantheman102100

Tell me you are kidding. Those guys are way to strong in my opinion. I was in a battle once where I managed to defeat all of the AI's army. All that was left was a Gesaetae. I thought, oh yeah, I've won this battle. So I send one princeps and a hastati, both having 2 gold cheverons. I got the princeps to attack the front, and at the same time hastati from the back, supported by many units of cavalry (like 3 or 4) I let them attack, and ALL OF THESE UNITS WERE ROUTED, WITH VAST CASUALTIES! They had only lost 15 or so people. I withdrew all forces. I sent 3 triarii in phalanx formation and tricked the Gesaetae into attacking their front. I finally defeated them with the triarii phalanx, but geez! One full stack of Gesaetae would be able to single handedly conquer at least 3 full stacks of the best Rome has to offer. I think they are overpowered.

Unfortunatly I am not kidding (ducks to avoid the torrent of abuse), this is how the historians at EB told me they should behave in battle. Not only that but I've had about 100 reports saying they're too tough or they're just fine and it's obvious that I can't make everyone happy. If you want to nerf them a bit go for it, I think Pritzl has his own version of them if you perfer that but until the historians at EB tell me to nerf them I won't, and they apparently feel that any nerfing of this unit is inaccurate.

What difficulty are you playing on btw?

[QwertyMIDX]

Originally Posted by Bonheddwr

In my Epirios campaign I can recruit Samnite heavy infantry as mercenaries in southern Italy, yet despite what what my barracks say, I can't recruit them as regulars. Is this on purpose? Also the Samnite heavy infantry seems a little odd because they are inferior in attack yet more expensive than the Samnite spearmen.

Yeah they have AP and a better leathality (more defense too). Eperios should be able to train them, what gov't do you have in place and what version of EB is this?

[Dantheman102100]

Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

Unfortunatly I am not kidding (ducks to avoid the torrent of abuse), this is how the historians at EB told me they should behave in battle. Not only that but I've had about 100 reports saying they're too tough or they're just fine and it's obvious that I can't make everyone happy. If you want to nerf them a bit go for it, I think Pritzl has his own version of them if you perfer that but until the historians at EB tell me to nerf them I won't, and they apparently feel that any nerfing of this unit is inaccurate.

To be honest, I doubt that some barbarians who were generally conscripted as quickly as possible and disbanded as soon as they were no longer needed could either get enough experience or be trained enough to be this strong. I understand your possition, you will never get absolutly everyone to be happy with EB, you're simply doing what the EB historians tell you or whatever. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, you are just doing your job. But, I can't honestly say that can accept what the EB historians are telling you, so I thought I'd do a search on this unit to see if I could find something different than what they are telling you. However, I couldn't find anything outside TWC. Would you know if Gesaetae their historical name? If it isn't, what is, if you should know?

Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

What difficulty are you playing on btw?

I didn't really pay attention, I just wanted to start a campaign, so I would guess it would be medium or hard. Don't really know, guess I should have looked.

[John I Tzimisces]

Originally Posted by Dantheman102100

To be honest, I doubt that some barbarians who were generally conscripted as quickly as possible and disbanded as soon as they were no longer needed could either get enough experience or be trained enough to be this strong. I understand your possition, you will never get absolutly everyone to be happy with EB, you're simply doing what the EB historians tell you or whatever. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, you are just doing your job. But, I can't honestly say that can accept what the EB historians are telling you, so I thought I'd do a search on this unit to see if I could find something different than what they are telling you. However, I couldn't find anything outside TWC. Would you know if Gesaetae their historical name? If it isn't, what is, if you should know?



I didn't really pay attention, I just wanted to start a campaign, so I would guess it would be medium or hard. Don't really know, guess I should have looked.

You have to bear in mind many of these sources are not from the internet...by many, I mean ALL.

[Dantheman102100]

Originally Posted by eXc|Imperator

You have to bear in mind many of these sources are not from the internet...by many, I mean ALL.

I'm sure that's true, but many literary works are hosted on the net. Like Plutarch's Parallel Lives is hosted on the net, Julius' Commentaries on the Gallic Wars, etc. Besides, many actual historians actually write stuff on the net. The net is a very large place, you never know what you may find. :wink:

[paulus]

You have the spelling wrong. Its Gaesatae, and I don't recall exactly how it was spelled in Greek (gaison was the Gallic javelin for which the Gaesatae were named). Yes they existed, yes they were very effective in hand to hand combat. Being naked, they did not do as well against missile troops. There are a few sections in Polybios talking about them (at the Telamon battle, most famously). They are also recorded (by description or artistic depiction, not by name) in the armies that invaded Greece and settled in Anatolia.

If you're looking for sources, try perseus.tufts.edu/hopper, or there's a nifty site called attalus.org, which includes a nice database of events, arranged either by subject or date, and even has links to some source translations that neither Perseus nor even the Loeb collection (at libraries) have. Hope that helps.

[Pritzl]

Actually Qwerty, with the revised lower number per unit they're working out fine. I also find the revised elephant stats a bit better. Still too overly susceptible to peltasts and other 'bonus versus elephants' missile units but their behaviour in melee is a bit easier to swallow. What did you change there btw?

[QwertyMIDX]

IIRC I upped the armor level and decreased the defense skill. The bonuses missile troops get against them will probably go down in the next build btw, so they might might you even happier

[Dantheman102100]

Originally Posted by paulus

You have the spelling wrong. Its Gaesatae...

Ah, that fixes the problem. And thank you for the sources, but I already knew of this site that has just about every ancient work I could imagine. Thank you anyways, though.

Now, back to my question about the gaesatae... I looked in Polybius' Histories in the site I reference above, and could only find two references to this group, both being in the second book. They took part in two battles, both of which were major disastors for the Gauls. As paulus says, Telamon, and another one, which I forget the name of. In Telamon, the Gaul's outnumbered the Romans by at least 10,000 infantry, plus cavalry. Still, the Roman Consuls managed to surround the Gauls and, from there, it was a massacre. 40,000 Gauls dead, and 10,000 taken prisoner. Polybius doesn't record Roman losses, but considering that the army was still able to ingage in another major battle at Mediolanum, the losses must not have been to bad.

So, since the only two references to the gaesatae record them in major defeats for the people they are fighting for, why are they so darn strong in EB?

[Khelvan]

Originally Posted by Dantheman102100

To be honest, I doubt that some barbarians who were generally conscripted as quickly as possible and disbanded as soon as they were no longer needed could either get enough experience or be trained enough to be this strong.

The argument might be a valid one, but the premise is invalid. These were not "some barbarians who were generally conscripted as quickly as possible and disbanded as soon as they were no longer needed." That is an incorrect stereotype. The Celts had standing armies, though the Gaesatae are a different case.

Much of the information regarding the various Celts has been culled from a variety of sources, including the Celts' own histories. I'll see if we can get one of our Celt historians here to address some of this.

[Frost, colonel]

Wasn't sure where to post this hope it's ok here.

In version 7.3(hoping this comment is still valid as I have not downloaded v7.4 yet) the Seleukid elites Thoratikai Agyraspidai(spelling? bloody good guess if i'm right) are only recruitable in Antioch and Seleukia(spelling?- their capital) Where as the other elites are available in many cities(with top baracks and grade 1 govement building). Is this an oversight? as it is a real pain logistically regarding retraining depleted units.

Having said that though I presume I shouldn't be able to capture any grade 1 govement buildings in the first place?