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Thread: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

  1. #261
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Macedonia, with its precipitous and abrupt mountains, forming natural barriers and making communication with the rest of Greece difficult, could not participate very actively in the political, cultural and social life of the other Greeks.

    For this reason the Greeks in the south, did not very well mix with the Greeks in the north, i.e. with those in Macedonia. Up until King Philip II's era, there were no significant contacts and conflicts between Macedonian Greeks and the rest of the Greek City-States in the south.

    The endeavor of King Alexander I to protect the Greek City-States from the eminent Persian danger, obtained him the title of "Philhellene" by the southern Greeks. "Philhellene" at that time had the connotation of "Philopatris" (he who loves his fatherland) and was bestowed to those Greeks, who were not just concerned with their own City-State's welfare, but they displayed Pan-Hellenic anxieties. It should be remembered that, in spite geographic accessibility problems, which restrained intermingling of Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks in the south:
    • Macedonians had the same language, as all other Greeks

    • Macedonians had the same religion, as all other Greeks

    • Macedonians used the same architecture, as all other Greeks

    • Macedonians served the same arts, as all other Greeks

    • Macedonians used the same names, as all other Greeks

    • Macedonians had the same traditions, as all other Greeks

    • Macedonians had the same myths, as all other Greeks

    • Macedonians had the same heroes, as all other Greeks

    • Macedonians had the same rituals, as all other Greeks

    • Macedonians had the same customs, as all other Greeks

    • Macedonians were Greeks.


    Macedonians, through their agrarian and bucolic lives, their mountainous terrain, their continuous struggles to keep at bay barbarians from raiding the Greek peninsula and their intermittent internal struggles for succession to the Throne of Macedonia, ended up being rather isolated from the rest of the Greeks. They held on to their traditions, but their cultural development was not very significant.

    The cultural distance between the southern Greek City-States and Macedonia was quite substantial, because Athens did not have to play the protecting role of keeping the northern raiders off the Greek land. Macedonians bore that responsibility. Dr. Apostolos Daskalakis in his book The Greeks of Ancient Macedonia states: "If the Macedonians had not become the shield, protecting the lands beyond Mount Olympus by the continuous barbarian attacks, the Greek element would not be preserved uninterrupted for so many centuries. Had the Greek City-States in the south not remained for centuries undisturbed by invaders, Hellenism could had never reached the elevated thought about freedom, arts, philosophy and sciences, which were universally inherited by humanity."

    The without doubt culturally more advanced academic and artistic world of southern Greece, did not stay indifferent to this new venue towards the land of Macedonian. Thus a multitude of men of letters, arts and sciences found fertile ground amongst Macedonians. By the 4th century BCE this assimilation was complete. The enormous economic prosperity of the Macedonian State and able leadership of its Kings, became contributing factors towards collective changes, with innovative creations in all aspects of artistic endeavors; especially in metallurgy, painting and architecture. Such Arts became the archetype later on for the Romans, as it is evident even today in the city of Pompey, Italy.

    This wide move of the center of Hellenism from the southern to the northern part of the Greek peninsula, began with the emergence of the Macedonian King Philip II. His conquests and at the same time the decline of the Greek City-States in the south, caused a sensation of envy and dissatisfaction to the other Greeks, especially to the citizens of Athens, which formed the hub of public opinion at the time, against the, in some ways, "uncultivated" Greeks of Macedonia. All the insults about "barbarian" Macedonians did not originate by philosophers, poets or other authors, but by political Athenian orators.

    The Athenian politician-orator Demosthenes, King Philip's main opponent, speaking to the Athenians, said: "…aren't all our powerful locations placed in the hands of this man? Will we not suffer the most awful humiliation? Are we not already at war with him? Isn't he our enemy? Isn't he in possession of our lands? Isn't he a barbarian? Doesn't he deserve all this name-calling?" Demosthenes, in his speech, spoke with human anger against an opponent. When he called King Philip "barbarian", he did not mean that Philip was "not Greek". This was taken for granted, since in his Olynthian II oration, Demosthenes praises the State of Macedonia. At the same time Demosthenes could not call anyone a "barbarian", given that his own origin was "barbarian". Aeschinus, in his oration against Ktisiphon, calls Demosthenes "libelous", because he is "barbarian" by his Scythe mother and only a "Greek" by language.

    Macedonian King Alexander I, lover of Arts and friend of poet Pindar, participated in the 80th Olympiad of 460 BCE. He competed in the "Stadion" field event and was placed close second to the first runner. His participation marked not only the beginning of the involvement of Macedonians in the Olympics, but it also constituted the foundation of future Macedonian interaction with the other Greeks and, furthermore, had very far reaching effects on the future of Hellenism.

    Macedonians, who participated in the Olympics at Olympia, were as follows:

    • King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE. He run the “Stadion” and was placed very close second.

    • King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BCE and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.

    • King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.

    • Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BCE.

    • Damasias from Amphipolis won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BCE.

    • Lampos from Philippi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BCE.

    • Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE.

    • Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE.

    • During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BCE and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BCE, a woman from Macedonia won the competition. Pausanias mentions that: “…it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi from the seashores of Macedonia”.


    Pausanias mentions the Philippeion in Olympia: “In the grove there is the Records Building and an edifice called Phippeion…Philip built it after the battle at Chaeroneia…there are statues of Philip, of Alexander and Amyntas…there are pieces that were made of ivory and gold carved by Leoharus, just like the statues of Olympia and Euridice”. Also Pausanias points out that various statues were made by order as oblations and he mentions that: “representing the Macedonians, the inhabitants of Dion, a city by the Macedonian Pieria mountain range, had a statue made, which portrays Apollo holding a deer”.


    During the Vergina excavation a tripod was found, which is kept at the Museum of Thessaloniki, and carries the inscription: “I come from the Argos athletic competitions, the Heraia”. According to Archeology Professor Andronikos, the tripod belonged to the Macedonian King Alexander I and it was a family heirloom.


    King Arhelaos I (413-399 BC) established in Dion magnificent athletic competitions every two years “the Olympian Dion”, which lasted nine days, as it corresponded to the nine Pierian Muses, originating from the Macedonian mountain range Pieria. During these events ancient tragedies were presented. Arhelaos I organized the Macedonian Army, structured a transportation system and transferred the Capital from Aiges to Pella. In his court lived the tragic poet Agathon, the epic poet Horilos, the dithyramb writer Timotheos, the tragic poet Melanipidis and the doctor and son of Hippocrates Thessalos. Tragedian Euripides composed his tragedies Arhelaos and Bachae right in Arhelaos’s court. Euripides died and was buried in Macedonia.


    Three ancient Theaters were discovered in Macedonia; one is at Dion, dating back to the 5th century BCE; the second is at Vergina (Aegai) – 4th century BCE and the third at Philippi. Ancient plays used to be performed in these Theaters. At the Dion Theater, Euripides’ Bachae and Arhelaos were introduced for the first time. Some experts believe that Iphigeneia in Aulis was presented there. The theme of the play Arhelaos is associated with the migration of the Argive Timenidis, Prince of Macedonia and founder of the Royal House of Aegai. These tragedies, played in these Theaters, were written in the Greek language, since they were intended for Greek audience, the Macedonians.


    Dion, the sacred place of Macedonians, is one of the largest (about 4 acres) and most archeologically significant districts of Greece, featuring multifarious bath areas, taking up about 1 acre, with tiled floors, marble bathtubs, complete plumbing system (led and clay pipes) and lavish colonnaded tiled halls. A fact that has been overlooked is that Dion was also the center of intellectual competitions and therefore the birth place of the cultural Olympics.

    Plutarch mentions that: “All of Asia, civilized by Alexander the Great, was reading Homer and Euripides’ as well as Sophocles’ tragedies”.
    Macedones were, are and will always be Greeks
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  2. #262
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    macedonian were greeks

    but slavic macedonians are not greek

    macedonians and macedonia as it sometimes was doesnt exist nomore , today there is different macedonia , which is named macedonia by territory on which it is on , not named by former greek country , so they dont offend greece this way

    let macedonians live in peace

    macedonia is greece , but not this one




  3. #263
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Milos98 View Post
    Well the fact is that Macedonians became Greeks ( barbarian ones ) and
    FYRO "Macedonians" are slavs that couldnt choose between Serbia and Bolgaria and so decided to make their own country, but problem arised when they found out that they have no history... So they took Alexander the Great, but the problem was that he wasnt slav... Maybe they have some Alexanders blood in them, because of the native inhabitants ( Maybe even I have some Ilyrian blood because maybe Illyrians lived on Kosovo and converted to Serbs ), but they are slavs, and for their sake I hope they change their name to Slavenia, Slavia or Slav Republic of Macedonia...

    thses Greek and Serbian nationalists still are denying independence of Macedonia. its lost cause for you guys. give it up.

  4. #264
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ali G View Post
    thses Greek and Serbian nationalists still are denying independence of Macedonia. its lost cause for you guys. give it up.
    Hi troll. I have been worried. more than 5 posts in the thread and you haven't poked in to say your thing, not even trying to back it up as always.

    It's lost cause for you. Give it up.
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  5. #265

    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy spong View Post
    macedonian were are greeks
    but slavics who live in Fyrom which nowadays have a part of south macedonians are not greek but slavs
    With the proper correction

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy spong View Post
    macedonians and macedonia as it sometimes was doesnt exist nomore , today there is different macedonia , which is named macedonia by territory on which it is on , not named by former greek country , so they dont offend greece this way
    let macedonians live in peace
    macedonia is greece , but not this one
    how convenient

    What you mean Macedonia doesn't exist any more?
    People who live in macedonia(greece) call themselves like this for more than 2000 years.
    What you mean they don't exist? kindnapped by Aliens ?
    Or because the don't use this , aren't macedonians?



    What you mean today there is a different Macedonia?
    Someone erase history and started to write a new one?
    what is this then? an alien country?


    "let macedonians live in peace"

    Yeah let us live in peace and stop claiming our name and our father's name, and stop pretending that we don't exist.

    Macedonia was, is and will be -only one and- Greek
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  6. #266
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Hi troll. I have been worried. more than 5 posts in the thread and you haven't poked in to say your thing, not even trying to back it up as always.

    It's lost cause for you. Give it up.


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  7. #267
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by karakalos10 View Post
    With the proper correction



    how convenient

    What you mean Macedonia doesn't exist any more?
    People who live in macedonia(greece) call themselves like this for more than 2000 years.
    What you mean they don't exist? kindnapped by Aliens ?
    Or because the don't use this , aren't macedonians?



    What you mean today there is a different Macedonia?
    Someone erase history and started to write a new one?
    what is this then? an alien country?


    "let macedonians live in peace"

    Yeah let us live in peace and stop claiming our name and our father's name, and stop pretending that we don't exist.

    Macedonia was, is and will be -only one and- Greek
    1st. when u quote me , quote me correctly as i writted , cause if u correct my quotes then it is not fair disscusion , so fair play.

    list - i writted macedonia instead of fyrom , macedonia instead of south macedonia - and again macedonia instead of i dont know what

    what i want to say , macedonia , the greek territory in greece , stil remains macedonia , however , there is a country at the north of greece , which is also called macedonia , but not greek and not settled by greek at all, so macedonia is greece , it still exists , it is not kidnaped , but it is a territory in greece .But , macedonian slavs , live where they live , for over 400 years and more. They used to call that country macedonia , they gave it name cause it is macedonia. not whole macedonia but part of it. now after more then 400 years , in all that time , do u really expect that they suddenly start calling themselves upper macedonians , and their country upper macedonia ? dont think so . It is a thing u cant just change like that today . it is history. i know that u r also proud of your history and it is normal that u care , but be reasonable . it is not that they dont have rights to call it macedonia


    first of all this is not country as u say , this is region , territory , whatever , a part of greek republic
    Last edited by jimmy spong; August 27, 2008 at 01:07 PM.




  8. #268

    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by karakalos10 View Post
    We never said something about Fyrom's independence, this not the subject of this thread.
    Um, I wasn't talking about the independence, I was saying that when we made our flag that way, the Greeks started this naming dispute. Honestly, talking about the history doesn't pertain entirely to the subject.
    Last edited by attilavolciak07; August 27, 2008 at 12:34 PM.

  9. #269

    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy spong View Post
    what i want to say , macedonia , the greek territory in greece , stil remains macedonia
    you said exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy spong View Post
    macedonian were greeks
    but slavic macedonians are not greek
    macedonians and macedonia as it sometimes was doesnt exist nomore
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy spong View Post
    But , macedonian slavs , live where they live , for over 400 years and more. They used to call that country macedonia , they gave it name cause it is macedonia. not whole macedonia but part of it.
    Hahaha 400 years really ? They used to call it Vardaria or Vardaska, nice propaganda you read


    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy spong View Post
    it is not that they dont have rights to call it macedonia
    Who is giving these rights? this guy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy spong View Post
    first of all this is not country as u say , this is region , territory , whatever , a part of greek republic
    And the only one and true Macedonia and Macedonians.

    Quote Originally Posted by attilavolciak07 View Post
    I was saying that when we made our flag that way, the Greeks started this naming dispute. Honestly, talking about the history doesn't pertain entirely to the subject.
    No, that's when the public knew what was going on in your country that you was hacking greek history.

    According to Jimmy spong
    , however , there is a country at the north of greece , which is also called macedonia , but not greek
    Since when a non-greek country claim Alexander the great and his coat of arms as their flag?
    and my father's land ?
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    Last edited by Eastern Roman; August 27, 2008 at 01:36 PM.
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  10. #270

    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by karakalos10 View Post
    Hahaha 400 years really ? They used to call it Vardaria or Vardaska, nice propaganda you read

    Why are those Serbian names, or did you just look for some bad excuse?:hmmm:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Star of Vergina is not a Greek symbol, except in the sense that it happens to have been found on the territory of the present-day Greek state. The modern day Greeks appropriated ancient Greek cultural symbols because they happen to live in more or less the same part of the world as the ancient Greeks did, not because they are descended from them.
    -Peter Hill, University of Hamburg, Slavic Studies


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The star of Vergina applies to the 3rd century BC northern Greece - a very different situation, not related to the 21st century AD. I think it's modern politics, and we're witnessing the use of an archaeological symbol for history that it's really not related to. BBC: Bajana Mojsov
    Last edited by attilavolciak07; August 27, 2008 at 02:48 PM.

  11. #271
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Attila, you think calmly and rationaly which is good.

    However the prime minister of FYROM accuses Greece of oppresing a "Macedonian" minority.
    It's all nice for a half American to say "Hey, if they want to call themselves Macedonians since they live in a part of Ancient Macedonia what's the problem? They're not connected to ancient Macedonia so it's OK."
    The problem is that many people in FYROM, including their prime minister don't see things your way. They claim through deeds (like naming their airport Alexander etc) and through diplomats that there is an oppressed minority of their people in Greece and that they're the heirs of Alexander the Great.
    That's why Karakalos and some Greeks around here are so sensitive about this matter.


    The Star of Vergina is not a Greek symbol, except in the sense that it happens to have been found on the territory of the present-day Greek state. The modern day Greeks appropriated ancient Greek cultural symbols because they happen to live in more or less the same part of the world as the ancient Greeks did, not because they are descended from them.
    -Peter Hill, University of Hamburg, Slavic Studies

    The star of Vergina applies to the 3rd century BC northern Greece - a very different situation, not related to the 21st century AD. I think it's modern politics, and we're witnessing the use of an archaeological symbol for history that it's really not related to. BBC: Bajana Mojsov
    I disagree with these people.
    We are descendants of Ancient Greeks, that's why we use these symbols. Not just because we live here. Greeks in Australia use these symbols too.

    And how can the use of 2300 years old symbol NOT relate to history?
    Last edited by alhoon; August 27, 2008 at 02:52 PM.
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  12. #272

    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    The problem is that many people in FYROM, including their prime minister don't see things your way. They claim through deeds (like naming their airport Alexander etc) and through diplomats that there is an oppressed minority of their people in Greece and that they're the heirs of Alexander the Great.
    Proof or quotes? :hmmm:And what does it have to do with a naming dispute?


    BBC said it best, you use this for modern politics, not background.

  13. #273
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by attilavolciak07 View Post
    Proof or quotes?

    Check your newspapers. You'd see that three days ago the FYROM prime minister said to Nimits (or however he's spelled in English) about an oppressed Macedonian minority in Greece and called us to recognise it!
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  14. #274

    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    And what about the topic?

    And my remarks about Greece using the history for modern politics? Or are you on the run, alhoon?

  15. #275
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    I'm not on the run!
    I agree. We use it for politics but FYROM started it by fabricating false history.
    I see nothing wrong with using history in politics.
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  16. #276

    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I'm not on the run!
    I agree. We use it for politics but FYROM started it by fabricating false history.
    I see nothing wrong with using history in politics.
    Brain washing? :hmmm: Like you claim we do, if I recall earlier in the thread. I love saying remarks that force people to respond against something they say earlier You might be on the run.

    And what about the topic? All that is said in this thread is about history, which has nothing to do with the topic.

    And today Slavs have been living there (Macedonia) for a period of 1,400 years. What is more natural than that the Balkanized Slavs who have lived so long and continuously in Macedonia should be called Macedonians and their language Macedonian"

  17. #277
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    Quote Originally Posted by attilavolciak07 View Post
    Brain washing? :hmmm: Like you claim we do, if I recall earlier in the thread. I love saying remarks that force people to respond against something they say earlier You might be on the run.

    And what about the topic? All that is said in this thread is about history, which has nothing to do with the topic.

    And today Slavs have been living there (Macedonia) for a period of 1,400 years. What is more natural than that the Balkanized Slavs who have lived so long and continuously in Macedonia should be called Macedonians and their language Macedonian"
    Using history in politics is the opposite of brainwashing. You fell in your own trap. That's why I'm all for using history in this topic. It stops brainwashing.

    Speaking of slavs living there for 1400 years... that's history. In your trap again. And since I have no problem bringing history in politics, those balkanized slavs decided to call themselves Macedonians about 80 years ago, not 1400 years ago. Also the descendants of these balkanized Slavs also claim that are the true descendants of Alexander the Great, capitalize our history for their own ends and try to claim Greece has an oppressed Macedonian minority and they don't mean the slavs that live in Greece.
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  18. #278

    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2


    But Greece doesn't want the sun to be a star.

    Thats why the sun (by the sun I mean the one in space) will die soon, GREECE!


    That Slavs thing isn't history. Read it again.

    And we named our airport, Aleksandar Veliki, not Alexander the Great.

  19. #279

    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    I hope Macedonia resorts to common sense and invades Greece

  20. #280
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    Default Re: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute, Mk 2

    And we named our airport, Aleksandar Veliki, not Alexander the Great.
    Err... what's the difference?

    The official Page:
    http://skp.airports.com.mk/default.aspx?ItemID=345

    It says: Alexander the Great!
    Under the noble patronage of Jimkatalanos

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