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Thread: Byzantine Crusade

  1. #1
    Skooma Addict's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Byzantine Crusade

    After reading wikipedia for about ten minutes, I hearby declare myself an expert on medieval history. Since the first crusade was called on by the Byzantine emperor, in a letter to the pope ,to reclaim Christian lands they lost to the Muslims(mainly the Turks)(The Turks REALLY wupped their butts), wouldn't it make sense for Orthodox factions to be able to join the crusades as well? I also read that Byzantine rulers were sending envoys to Song Dynasty China requesting aid against the Seljuks.(The Turks really wupped their butts)

  2. #2
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Orthodox rullers did not trusted the catholic ones since 801ad but even worst after 1054!!!
    They could not participate in a crusade UNDER the orders of infirior rullers!
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    I think that's a pretty cool idea, tho there may be a couple snags. What happens if the Crusade is declared on Constantinople..while you own it...it may be a bit of a screwy dynamic just because there's no association between Byz and the Pope like the Catholic factions..he can't excommunicate you.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Correct me if i'm wrong here as i'm not history expert having not read wikipedia for 10 minutes myself, but surely the idea of the crusades was to get the kings in europe to stop killing each oher and start killing the turks. If so then the Byzantines wouldn't need to crusade as they were already fighting the turks? Sorry if what i have just described is nothing like what actually happened im just sort of guessing.

    EDIT: i took so long writing my post, while doing other things, that the two above me appeared and have sort of made mine redundant

  5. #5
    Skooma Addict's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by matc4 View Post
    Correct me if i'm wrong here as i'm not history expert having not read wikipedia for 10 minutes myself, but surely the idea of the crusades was to get the kings in europe to stop killing each oher and start killing the turks. If so then the Byzantines wouldn't need to crusade as they were already fighting the turks? Sorry if what i have just described is nothing like what actually happened im just sort of guessing.

    EDIT: i took so long writing my post, while doing other things, that the two above me appeared and have sort of made mine redundant
    Yes, but they could merge their units with the crusading army to reclaim the holy lands and hire mercs to fight the Turks in Asia Minor. And why stop at Western Catholics? Why not unite the northern orthodox rulers to help fend off the Turks while simultaneously launching a campaign in Jerusalem? Hypothetically of coarse.

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    The Noble Lord's Avatar Holy Arab Nation
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Orthodox rullers did not trusted the catholic ones since 801ad but even worst after 1054!!!
    True. It was impossible to do anything together after 1054.
    When Emperor Alexius asked Pope for help he didn't have in mind a full-blown Crusade. What he thought was few hundred mercenaries and thats it.
    Pope Urban the II thought otherwise. For him this was the perfect opportunity to unite two Christian Churches, to take back Jerusalem, reassert his supremacy in Europe and beyond. When Emperor Alexius saw the hordes of western Europeans marching through his empire towards Constantinople he was horrified.


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  7. #7
    themoob's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Also, it wasn't exactly "holy war" for the Byzantines.

    They more followed along because they had a chance to reclaim a lot of lost land from the Seljuks, seeing as they had the cannon fodder that was the Crusader army. This worked sometimes (Nicaea), but not at others (Antioch).

  8. #8

    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Yeah, the byzantine idea before the crusades was to get a bit of help, a few mercs etc... as they had been having torn apart by the turks which had managed to defeat the greek army at mazinkert. It was pope Urban II who took the oppertunity to get all the warring catholic lords of europe to unite against non christians. Emperor alexius never really joined the crusade, just provided transport to the crusaders with the understanding that all lands that the greeks had lost and recovered by the crusaders would be returned to them.

    Things turned sour after antioch where the greek troops going along with the crusaders just stopped and left the crusaders to their own devices which was seen as almost a betrayal and actually worsened the orthodox/catholic relations thereafter.
    Last edited by moosey; July 24, 2008 at 05:17 PM.
    Its not the one with youre name on it, its the one addressed to whom this may concern you have to worry about

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  9. #9
    LionQ's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Skooma Addict View Post
    After reading wikipedia for about ten minutes, I hearby declare myself an expert on medieval history. ...
    "Despite the importance the Byzantine Empire attached to its position as the defender of true, orthodox Christianity against Muslim and Catholic alike, it is worth noting that the Empire never developed or understood the concept of a "holy war". Its neighbours' concepts of Jihad and Crusade seemed to it gross perversions of scripture or simple excuses for looting and destruction." ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzanti...ary_philosophy

    Looks like you missed out on a page.




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  10. #10
    Sonny WiFiHr's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    They were actualy minion of Byzantine empire but only on paper. But Byzantine did provide some siege engines in siege of Acre (?). Every crusader had to sworn loyalty to Bizantyne Emperor (only in first real military crusade (4 army ), real first crusade was lead by some donky monkey (priest) and it was disaster).
    What about 4th crusade ? Should Byzantine emperor call crusade on his capital?

  11. #11
    Skooma Addict's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by LionQ View Post
    "Despite the importance the Byzantine Empire attached to its position as the defender of true, orthodox Christianity against Muslim and Catholic alike, it is worth noting that the Empire never developed or understood the concept of a "holy war". Its neighbours' concepts of Jihad and Crusade seemed to it gross perversions of scripture or simple excuses for looting and destruction." ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzanti...ary_philosophy

    Looks like you missed out on a page.
    Wow, you must've read like fifteen minutes!

  12. #12

    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    It would be nice to play the byzantynes and "have the pope's ear" so to speak, and suggest crusade targets without necessarily being catholic. This way you could prevent all the immersion-destroying european crusades.
    "If we didn't have cruxifixion, this country'd be in a right bloody mess"

  13. #13

    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    "...After reading wikipedia for about ten minutes, I hearby declare myself an expert on medieval history....

    I love that - could apply to soooo many posts !!

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  14. #14
    Firebat11's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Skooma Addict View Post
    After reading wikipedia for about ten minutes, I hearby declare myself an expert on medieval history. Since the first crusade was called on by the Byzantine emperor, in a letter to the pope ,to reclaim Christian lands they lost to the Muslims(mainly the Turks)(The Turks REALLY wupped their butts), wouldn't it make sense for Orthodox factions to be able to join the crusades as well? I also read that Byzantine rulers were sending envoys to Song Dynasty China requesting aid against the Seljuks.(The Turks really wupped their butts)
    There are so many things wrong with this statement that its not even funny.

    First of all, Wikipedia does not make you an expert...at anything. Secondly, reading anything for 10 minutes does not make you an expert...at anything.

    Thirdly, the notion of "crusade" was a foreign idea to the Romans/Greeks. In their minds, the Byzantine Empire was an extension of the former Roman empire and were therefore the rightful and lawful representatives of God on earth. The Romans believed that all the lands of the Levant and Anatolia were rightfully theirs, which is why an agreement was understood that all lands that the crusaders captured would be returned to the Empire. In reality this didn't really happen.

    The Crusade was an odd and to the Romans a heretical practice, but they allowed the Crusaders to come because they needed the help defeating the Turks.

    To the Romans, crusades are just wrong and products of the barbarian west (as thought by the Romans).

    Gah...laymen.
    Co-Creator of Battle for the Baltic Mod for SS 6.1

  15. #15

    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Hey,

    Skooma was making a joke...& a good one I thought !!

    Henri
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Actually, the first Christian Crusade was called by Emperor Hericulas against the Persians 30-40 years before the Muslims showed up.

    Much of the intectual basis for the later crusades were based on the justifications asserted during the Great Persian War.

    While the Western Crusades are better known, and the great Persian War is largely unknown (the arab invasions immediatelly followed and get a bit more attention), Holy War is not a Catholic invention

  17. #17
    Firebat11's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Haranin View Post
    Actually, the first Christian Crusade was called by Emperor Hericulas against the Persians 30-40 years before the Muslims showed up.

    Much of the intectual basis for the later crusades were based on the justifications asserted during the Great Persian War.

    While the Western Crusades are better known, and the great Persian War is largely unknown (the arab invasions immediatelly followed and get a bit more attention), Holy War is not a Catholic invention
    I agree. But the distinction I was trying to make was that the Romans thought of themselves as essentially apart of God. Therefore any holy war would be seen to the Romans as fighting for the empire.

    The Western Catholics thought differently
    Co-Creator of Battle for the Baltic Mod for SS 6.1

  18. #18

    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    i dont know if they thought themselves as part of god... i would say more that they saw themselves as having divine right over the western powers being almost a father state having been around much longer than any of the relatively young western states.

    The first crusade was technically fighting for the empire as they had made it so that any lands the crusaders conquered which had previously been owned by the roman greeks would be returned to them. In exchange the byzantines helped the crusder armies along and assisted them in battle.
    Its not the one with youre name on it, its the one addressed to whom this may concern you have to worry about

    The Most Serene Republic - Genoa AAR (SS)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183877

    La Couronne de Charlemagne - French AAR (SS)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=199284

  19. #19
    Skooma Addict's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebat11 View Post
    There are so many things wrong with this statement that its not even funny.

    First of all, Wikipedia does not make you an expert...at anything. Secondly, reading anything for 10 minutes does not make you an expert...at anything.


    Gah...laymen.
    Oh my, thank you for pointing that out for me. I had no idea I was not really a medieval expert. All this time living a lie! A lie I tell you! Truly, my life is now complete. Thank you, thank you firebat. Your lack of a sense of humor has shown me the error of my way.

  20. #20
    The Noble Lord's Avatar Holy Arab Nation
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    Default Re: Byzantine Crusade

    Actually, the first Christian Crusade was called by Emperor Hericulas against the Persians 30-40 years before the Muslims showed up.
    It was the fight of the Christian Byzantines against the "infidel" Persians, but the connotation of the religious war was simply not there.
    The reason everybody remembers Emperor Heraclius 's war against the Persians as a Crusade is because Heraclius became known as the recoverer of the True Cross. The True Cross was captured by the Persians years before and he recaptured it from them and took it to Constantinople. On the news that True Cross has been liberated entire Christendom rejoiced.



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