US Government Shutdown

[Cyclops]

Anyway Trump had offered an extension of the legal status of Temporary Protected Status holders, it was rejected. Good. It was stupid to compromise to begin with.

''You are sayin...?'' No.

Trump did something stupid, but it wasn't stupid?

[Basil II the B.S]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A liberal retard posted this on reddit.

Here's what Trump's retort should be:
- declare national emergency, use the army to build the wall
- scrap DACA completely, replaced by Australian style law that makes it impossible for illegal immigrants to obtain legal status and/or citizenship
- de-fund universities, forcing administrators to scrap the ideological nonsense, divert funds to the wall
- withdraw from NATO
- roll-back the totality of environmental regulations
- education reform, banning all post-modernist fields, declare degrees majoring in those fields invalid
- abolish student debt refinancing, create an agency that collects collateral for it; if not, convert to jail time

[conon394]

By refusing to compromise, Democrats just shot themselves in the foot. It is interesting to see that Trump actually is willing to compromise and come up with bipartisan solutions, which comes in sharp contrast with his predecessor, who prioritized partisanship over his actual job.

What comprise did he offer that was not less then he could have had a year ago? He has indicated for long time he views a shutdown as a tactic and cares not damn for the cost. The Democrats can't do anything but demand a CR during negotiations else they will be trapped into every budget year.

'actual job' like running the government?

[Basil II the B.S]

Extended status for TPS holders.

[conon394]

A liberal retard posted this on reddit. (snip)

Here's what Trump's retort should be:
- declare national emergency, use the army to build the wall
- scrap DACA completely, replaced by Australian style law that makes it impossible for illegal immigrants to obtain legal status and/or citizenship
- de-fund universities, forcing administrators to scrap the ideological nonsense, divert funds to the wall
- withdraw from NATO
- roll-back the totality of environmental regulations
- education reform, banning all post-modernist fields, declare degrees majoring in those fields invalid
- abolish student debt refinancing, create an agency that collects collateral for it; if not, convert to jail time

Well in a generous mood this morning. However its good post if you are going to throw long why not dream.


How about this the wall for a return to IKE era tax rates in the US. Money gained to spend on anything but the military until it reforms its spending a acquisition methods such that it can no admit to loosing 800 million dollars in a year or not figure out how much money it wasted in Iraq or A-stan. Personally I say at minimum restore pre 1980s funding to the NIH and NSF. I can't see how legalizing pot does not make sense (I would add prostitution and cocaine as well.)

But this is all beside the point the government simply should not shutdown. I would give trump the wall money I suppose for a law designating a standard inflation adjusted CR automatically when no budget is passed. Then at least this fiasco cannot happen again no matter who you think is to blame.

[Cyclops]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A liberal retard posted this on reddit.

Here's what Trump's retort should be:
- declare national emergency, use the army to build the wall
- scrap DACA completely, replaced by Australian style law that makes it impossible for illegal immigrants to obtain legal status and/or citizenship
- de-fund universities, forcing administrators to scrap the ideological nonsense, divert funds to the wall
- withdraw from NATO
- roll-back the totality of environmental regulations
- education reform, banning all post-modernist fields, declare degrees majoring in those fields invalid
- abolish student debt refinancing, create an agency that collects collateral for it; if not, convert to jail time

That would be far more stupid and detrimental to US citizens' interests and wellbeing than the somewhat wishful screed you quoted. Im embarrassed for you that you just got rolled by your own straw man.

If this idiot wall was such a great idea why wasn't it passed when Trump has the numbers? He wants the US divided, same old red-blue . He's just another swamp creature, one that's pretty bad at it too.

BTW not sure you understand the "Australian style law", it doesn't work how you seem to imagine it does.

[Basil II the B.S]

How about this the wall for a return to IKE era tax rates in the US. Money gained to spend on anything but the military until it reforms its spending a acquisition methods such that it can no admit to loosing 800 million dollars in a year or figure out how much money it wasted in Iraq or A-stan. Personally I say at minimum restore pre 1980s funding to the NIH and NSF. I can't see how legalizing pot does not make sense would (I add prostitution and cocaine as well.)

But this is all beside the point thew government simply should not shutdown. I would give trump the wall money I suppose for a law designating a standard inflation adjusted CR automatically when no budget is passed. Then at least this fiasco cannot happen again no matter who think is to blame.

They won't work. We can do that btw, so that you guys realize the problem with them.

Here's why:

You look at the history of US income taxes, the first hike is in 1917 from 15% to 67%. It's because of WW1. It goes down in 1922 (end of the war), up in 1932 (New Deal), up again in the 40s (WW2) and 50s (preparation for WW3 when the Warzaw Pact happened), then they go down from the 60s, spiral further during the Reagan era. Since that, you have radical free movement of capital and tax havens. Most ultra wealthy also have their wealth increased because the value of the assets they own increases, not because of income. When it's income, before the tax man can touch it, it's paid in options, preferred stocks or similar financial instruments.

In short:
-you don't have a war economy, nor the national solidarity that makes the rich willing to pay that much of income tax; the US is a low social cohesion country
-even if they did, there's still the incentive to divert income from tax havens
-even if they didn't exist, wealth increase for the rich goes primarily through financial instruments and income is taxed after that, not before

Honestly, progressive that want income tax increases first need to have a talk with Hollywood celebrities that campaign for it on social media and then evade taxes anyway. Until that happens, it's pointless.

That would be far more stupid and detrimental to US citizens' interests and wellbeing than the somewhat wishful screed you quoted. Im embarrassed for you that you just got rolled by your own straw man.

If this idiot wall was such a great idea why wasn't it passed when Trump has the numbers? He wants the US divided, same old red-blue . He's just another swamp creature, one that's pretty bad at it too.

BTW not sure you understand the "Australian style law", it doesn't work how you seem to imagine it does.

Next time I'm putting a trigger warning for you.

[Aexodus]

Nonetheless, Trump’s approval among hispanics is rising because of his stance on the border, same as it did last time in June when there was an incident.

[conon394]

Since that, you have radical free movement of capital and tax havens.

Are you aware of the Jones act? Look it up

Simply do the same for banking make it illegal as American to hide you money, stop cutting the IRS budget so that it the staff to enforce the law. Impose a transfer tax or penalty on moving your money to a tax haven.

-even if they didn't exist, wealth increase for the rich goes primarily through financial instruments and income is taxed after that, not before

A capital gain is income I not sure I see you point. If happens (gain) and you are an American welcome to the IRS.

Most ultra wealthy also have their wealth increased because the value of the assets they own increases, not because of income. When it's income, before the tax man can touch it, it's paid in options, preferred stocks or similar financial instruments.

All that requires again is simple altering the tax to be properly efficient.

In any case the skew in both wealth and income demand higher tax rates and reduction at the lower end of the brackets. A higher estate tax as well.

[Basil II the B.S]

Are you aware of the Jones act? Look it up

You mean this one?
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/j/jonesact.asp

I'm missing your point here.

Simply do the same for banking make it illegal as American to hide you money, stop cutting the IRS budget so that it the staff to enforce the law. Impose a transfer tax or penalty on moving your money to a tax haven.

Problem is, it's already there. Cayman and similar places. Whenever it's brought back to the US, it's through philantropic foundations. Why do you think Soros put his 18 bn Dollars into Open Society? So that the IRS can barely touch it.

A capital gain is income I not sure I see you point. If happens (gain) and you are an American welcome to the IRS.

Due to the bs rules ongoing, short term capital gains are treated differently from long term and before the IRS can touch them most rich simply reinvest it into assets, which increase the value of the asset itself, makes the rich richer and you still can't touch them.

All that requires again is simple altering the tax to be properly efficient.

In any case the skew in both wealth and income demand higher tax rates and reduction at the lower end of the brackets. A higher estate tax as well.

Now you are (almost) getting it. You don't need to tax income (as in the flow of wealth), you need to tax wealth (as in the stock), especially when it comes to inheritance. Seriously, I can make an argument for a 150% inheritance tax for billionaires.

Other than that, you need to embargo tax havens, otherwise it's not going to work. That'd also require a major argument with the UK since the most popular tax havens are oversea territories of the British crown.

[conon394]

you need to embargo tax havens

That was my point on the Jones act. W/O it all ships in the US would likely be foreign flagged.

Move to make tax havens illegal or circumvent them - Americans have to bank with accepted us banks under us law.

Due to the bs rules ongoing, short term capital gains are treated differently from long term and before the IRS can touch them most rich simply reinvest it into assets, which increase the value of the asset itself, makes the rich richer and you still can't touch them.

All capital gains are taxed when they are realized. On this point I would say yes you can not realize you investment gains and simply if you are wealthy enough use the asset for credit but you legally supposed to be going to be taxed for the gain realized. Obviously all too many wealthy people have too many good accountants that can fix that. I would defiantly favor tax simplification for that reason. But more importantly not the insistent drum beat to lower or remove the estate tax. Fine hide you wealth all your life but pay up to country when you are having the final boat ride.

[Basil II the B.S]

That was my point on the Jones act. W/O it all ships in the US would likely be foreign flagged.

Move to make tax havens illegal or circumvent them - Americans have to bank with accepted us banks under us law.

The safest way is to:
a) block flights/ships etc directed to them, people, goods etc.
b) anyone caught having an account in such places loses everything he owns in the US

It isn't even that hard but there's no will behind it.

All capital gains are taxed when they are realized. On this point I would say yes you can not realize you investment gains and simply if you are wealthy enough use the asset for credit but you legally supposed to be going to be taxed for the gain realized. Obviously all too many wealthy people have too many good accountants that can fix that. I would defiantly favor tax simplification for that reason. But more importantly not the insistent drum beat to lower or remove the estate tax. Fine hide you wealth all your life but pay up to country when you are having the final boat ride.

There are ''swaps'' and other instruments that allow for an immediate reinvesting. I highly recommend reading ''Rich Dad Poor Dad'' since everyone in the financial world reading and it's the foundation of the mentality. I'm not even disagreeing with you, but as it is right now there are infinite loopholes to be exploited and this is why I suggest to focus on wealth rather than income. The simpler, the better. If something is 200 pages, then 198 are loopholes.

[Gaidin]

Extended status for TPS holders.

A permanent structure for merely extended status? I think you don't know how this works. That needs to be permanently resolved to have a shot at a wall.

[Basil II the B.S]

It's dead anyway. Nancy said no. I forgot to add to my list:
-defund the UN, use money to add laser guided turrets with machine guns on the Wall^TM

[conon394]

It's dead anyway. Nancy said no. I forgot to add to my list:
-defund the UN, use money to add laser guided turrets with machine guns on the Wall^TM

Silliness aside why do think a wall should be a priority of the myriad things the US could spend on, and why is it worth shuttering the government.

[Basil II the B.S]

It'd close the discussion on one of the most divisive and polarizing topics.Then indeed you can move to something else.

[conon394]

No it does not. It beyond a dereliction of duty to shut the government down for funding that at best would fund but a fraction of the 'wall' that will not even be built since every Texan land owner with any potential loss will be calling thier lawyer post haste. The losses from the shut down already likely exceed the the wall funding by a far measure. The wall is simply stupid and in terms of issues the US should address it should quite low on the scale.

[Gaidin]

It'd close the discussion on one of the most divisive and polarizing topics.Then indeed you can move to something else.

No it wouldn't. It'd move it to the courts for 20 years of eminent domain cases. Which the Democrats and even republican Texans have absolutely no interest in starting.

So after previously voting in favour of a southern barrier, the Dems now don’t want Trump’s compromise on Daca because he wants a wall, which they don’t want anymore.

Nice.

You gave Israel under an Obama approved deal $40 billion, $5 billion for your own country (Israel actually has a southern wall) should be feasible.

That is what they learned from voting for the barrier under Bush. It just gets delayed for decades as citizens rightfully defend the ownership of their property. Many citizens don't want it. That is, unless you believe the government has the right to play snatch and grab with a citizen's property without contest? This is one question here you will not be able to dodge in this debate. Many border towns have learned how to function peacefully and economically well without walls. The cities that need walls have them already. But if the government tries to take property to build a wall, it will just get bogged the living frak down.

Current congressional straw vote: "No thanks."
Current citizen popular assessment: "Do something else with the money."

Everybody that lives in America has seen this happen before and in fact currently still happening(and failing, by the numbers, given the eminent domain cases still running from Bush's Wall). Everybody looking in from somewhere else just sees Trump ranting his annoying ass off and his base making noise.

So Aexodus, I suggest, before you say something like this. Do the research. Find the data that is actually there. Build the real picture. Look at the real picture. Because you look sort of naive.

[Basil II the B.S]

Here's the funny thing. If we stick to the most conservative argument of minimal government, one of the few government functions is indeed border security.
You know what's a waste? The totality of missions in the ME. Foreign aid/NGO funding. International organizations funding. A sizeable function of the education that goes to Grievance Studies fields. If we start cutting the fat to government spending, the wall is hardly the top of the tower.

Besides, the primary reason it's not a problem for you is that liberals are so fond of this idea of the demographic destiny based on the California model. If you were a Conservative that'd be the n.1 threat to your lifestyle. That's why we can't agree on this. It's low on your priority list because immigration favours your side. If Hispanic voted Republican in a 2 to 1 ratio, you'd want to curb immigration asap.

[Gaidin]

H
Besides, the primary reason it's not a problem for you is that liberals are so fond of this idea of the demographic destiny based on the California model. If you were a Conservative that'd be the n.1 threat to your lifestyle. That's why we can't agree on this. It's low on your priority list because immigration favours your side. If Hispanic voted Republican in a 2 to 1 ratio, you'd want to curb immigration asap.

It's low on my priority list because three reasons: 1) I'm against Imminent Domain. 2) I think Border Patrol can do their job when they don't have to worry about their rent. 3) I think ICE can do their job when they don't have to worry about their rent.

You want me to look the other way on 1) and laugh all the way to the bank as DoJ fights citizens in the courts for their property for decades(and psst, secret: the wall doesn't get built anyway) you'd better god damn make it worth my while.