Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #2821
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    3,106

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkar View Post
    Take a look at this thread for some more discussion. It is for the new Tolkien Total War game under development, Total War: Middle-earth. It will have a hard time attaining the standard of Third Age: Total War, lol!
    If you're talking about lore accuracy, I suspect you won't really have a hard time unless you go out of your way to be inaccurate.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
    Proud supporter and fan of Fourth Age: Total War

  2. #2822
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Tilburg, Kingdom of The Netherlands
    Posts
    4,151

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    If you're talking about lore accuracy, I suspect you won't really have a hard time unless you go out of your way to be inaccurate.
    You are absolutely right. If they stick to what they state in their INTRODUCTION THREAD, they are bound to be more lore accurate than TATW.
    The key sentence being:
    Well a simple answer is a Middle Earth mod for Rome 2 completely based off of the books,
    He will have a hard time keeping everybody "in line" with what is in the books, I would say. A brave choice which I personally applaud, but also one that will not be to the liking of most potential players I suspect.

    Citizenised by Shankbot - Patron of b0Gia - House de Bodemloze

  3. #2823
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    3,106

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    He will have a hard time keeping everybody "in line" with what is in the books, I would say. A brave choice which I personally applaud, but also one that will not be to the liking of most potential players I suspect.
    Mods don't have a need to attract a large fanbase as normal games do, because the developers are not making it for profit. If a mod is good, people will play it. (Of course, sheer popularity is not necessarily an indication of superior quality)
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
    Proud supporter and fan of Fourth Age: Total War

  4. #2824
    Senator
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,215

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    'cough' people who buy FIFA every year even though it's the same game because they are morons who get fooled by EA. 'cough'

  5. #2825
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Tilburg, Kingdom of The Netherlands
    Posts
    4,151

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lortano View Post
    'cough' people who buy FIFA every year even though it's the same game because they are morons who get fooled by EA. 'cough'
    GESUNDHEIT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    Mods don't have a need to attract a large fanbase as normal games do, because the developers are not making it for profit. If a mod is good, people will play it. (Of course, sheer popularity is not necessarily an indication of superior quality)
    Yes, you are absolutely right about that. However the developers may also have the objective to get as much people playing their mod as possible. TW-ME is a very ambitious project which will take a huge effort from a lot of people working for a long time to pull it off. It may prove difficult to keep the team motivated when they stick to the book lore only to shape their game. I would play it, a lot of people visiting this thread would play it, but the big majority of the potential players know the Tolkien universe only because of the movies. Anything that doesn't have at least part of the atmosphere of those movies will probably disappoint them IMO. I wonder how their previews will be received by the "bigger" audience.

    Looking at the interesting lore thread by Alkar, I see large quotes from the Hobbit and LotR books and also a lot from the Silmarillion and even HoME. Of course this is only meant to provide a template on which the game design can be based. However these are sources that will make it look and also feel vastly different from what most players expect and are fond of. The majority of them will have only seen the movies. There will be some who have read the Hobbit and LotR. A few will have read the Silmarillion and only a handful will have ever heard of (let alone read) Unfinished tales, The Letters or less likely of all, HoME.

    Citizenised by Shankbot - Patron of b0Gia - House de Bodemloze

  6. #2826
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    3,106

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    Yes, you are absolutely right about that. However the developers may also have the objective to get as much people playing their mod as possible. TW-ME is a very ambitious project which will take a huge effort from a lot of people working for a long time to pull it off. It may prove difficult to keep the team motivated when they stick to the book lore only to shape their game. I would play it, a lot of people visiting this thread would play it, but the big majority of the potential players know the Tolkien universe only because of the movies. Anything that doesn't have at least part of the atmosphere of those movies will probably disappoint them IMO. I wonder how their previews will be received by the "bigger" audience.

    Looking at the interesting lore thread by Alkar, I see large quotes from the Hobbit and LotR books and also a lot from the Silmarillion and even HoME. Of course this is only meant to provide a template on which the game design can be based. However these are sources that will make it look and also feel vastly different from what most players expect and are fond of. The majority of them will have only seen the movies. There will be some who have read the Hobbit and LotR. A few will have read the Silmarillion and only a handful will have ever heard of (let alone read) Unfinished tales, The Letters or less likely of all, HoME.
    If players want to play movie mods then they can go play movie mods. God knows there are more than enough of them already.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
    Proud supporter and fan of Fourth Age: Total War

  7. #2827
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
    Patrician Citizen Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Gaming Emeritus

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    20,306
    Blog Entries
    46

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Looking at the interesting lore thread by Alkar, I see large quotes from the Hobbit and LotR books and also a lot from the Silmarillion and even HoME. Of course this is only meant to provide a template on which the game design can be based. However these are sources that will make it look and also feel vastly different from what most players expect and are fond of. The majority of them will have only seen the movies. There will be some who have read the Hobbit and LotR. A few will have read the Silmarillion and only a handful will have ever heard of (let alone read) Unfinished tales, The Letters or less likely of all, HoME.
    it's not by chance that Alkar has been addressed here ..

    I'm sure that they will do a great job with the mod
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  8. #2828
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    10,687

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    You're off topic gentlemen, if you want to discuss prefered levels of source faithfulness for mods, please turn to those mods forums or threads, or start a new thread with that topic

    Kingdom of Lindon preview video out





    DCI: Last Alliance
    - WIP Second Age mod | DCI: Tôl Acharn - mighty Dúnedain Counter Invasions |
    Additional Mercenary Minimod - more mercs; for TATW and DCI | Family Tree minimods - lore improvements | Remade Event Pictures - enhance cultures trough images |
    Favorite TATW compilation: Withwnars Submod Collection
    Patron of Mank, Kiliç Alì, FireFreak111, MIKEGOLF & Arachir Galudirithon, Earl of Memory

  9. #2829
    Alkar's Avatar Decanus
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Valinórë
    Posts
    570

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    You are absolutely right. If they stick to what they state in their INTRODUCTION THREAD, they are bound to be more lore accurate than TATW.
    The key sentence being:


    He will have a hard time keeping everybody "in line" with what is in the books, I would say. A brave choice which I personally applaud, but also one that will not be to the liking of most potential players I suspect.
    I shall still do my best to provide the most lore-accurate information as possible for the mod.

    Of the Lore of Middle-earth: Click Here and Here

  10. #2830

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    How big was the Saurons empire at its peak in second age? Did it even reach beyond mirkwood/anduin?
    I choose to die on my feet, rather than live on my knees!

  11. #2831
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ducatus Saxonia
    Posts
    1,335

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    All the way to the Lhûn on its peak. After his defeat at Tharbad, the western border still were the Misty Mountains. I don't know how far north Sauron ever expanded, or if he did even care for what was there.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  12. #2832
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    10,687

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    As Thangaror say;
    (...) When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his disguise fell and his wrath was revealed; and gathering a great force he moved over Calenardhon (Rohan) to the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695.

    ... At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation... turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.
    He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell).

    ... But now Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador: Lórinand could wait. But as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward.
    Now Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed that he had most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings; and he called in therefore his scattered forces and marched west towards the land of Gil-galad, ravaging as he went. But his force was weakened by the necessity of leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear.

    ... In 1695, when Sauron invaded Eriador, Gil-galad called on Númenor for aid. Then Tar-Minastir the King sent out a great navy; but it was delayed, and did not reach the coasts of Middle-earth until the year 1700. By that time Sauron had mastered all Eriador, save only besieged Imladris, and had reached the line of the River Lhûn.
    He had summoned more forces which were approaching from the south-east, and were indeed in Enedwaith at the Crossing of Tharbad, which was only lightly held. Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back.
    The Númenórean admiral Ciryatur sent part of his ships to make a landing further to the south.

    Sauron was driven away south-east after great slaughter at Sarn Ford (the crossing of the Baranduin); and though strengthened by his force at Tharbad he suddenly found a host of the Númenóreans again in his rear, for Ciryatur had put a strong force ashore at the mouth of the Gwathló (Greyflood), "where there was a small Númenórean harbour." [This was Vinyalondë of Tar-Aldarion, afterwards called Lond Daer; see Appendix D. p. 274.] In the Battle of the Gwathló Sauron was routed utterly and he himself only narrowly escaped. ... The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed. Eriador was cleared of the enemy, but lay largely in ruins. (...)


    - UT; The history of Galadriel and Celeborn and of Amroth King of Lórien
    Concerning Saurons dominion in the north as far as I can recall it was never very firm; where Orcs lived he would have some degree of control (much of the Misty Mountains) but not elsewhere.
    Last edited by Ngugi; September 23, 2014 at 05:36 AM.

    Kingdom of Lindon preview video out





    DCI: Last Alliance
    - WIP Second Age mod | DCI: Tôl Acharn - mighty Dúnedain Counter Invasions |
    Additional Mercenary Minimod - more mercs; for TATW and DCI | Family Tree minimods - lore improvements | Remade Event Pictures - enhance cultures trough images |
    Favorite TATW compilation: Withwnars Submod Collection
    Patron of Mank, Kiliç Alì, FireFreak111, MIKEGOLF & Arachir Galudirithon, Earl of Memory

  13. #2833

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Nice thank you!!! So it was pretty big empire...

    Also, was he there to lead his armies in battles? Or did he stay in Barad dur?
    I choose to die on my feet, rather than live on my knees!

  14. #2834
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Tilburg, Kingdom of The Netherlands
    Posts
    4,151

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Read the quote Ngugi posted, especially the last part.
    Last edited by Veteraan; September 23, 2014 at 06:01 AM.

    Citizenised by Shankbot - Patron of b0Gia - House de Bodemloze

  15. #2835

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I read it, I thought that "Sauron" stood for the "sauron armies"...

    Cant really imagine how he himself could be defeated in battle, when he slayed 2 kings at the Dagorlad, when there was the greates elven/men host.

    Nevermind, thank you... Would like to +rep ngugi but need to spread some first
    I choose to die on my feet, rather than live on my knees!

  16. #2836
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    3,106

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Sauron wasn't much of fighter. Gothmog always was Morgoth's go-to skullbasher.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
    Proud supporter and fan of Fourth Age: Total War

  17. #2837
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Tilburg, Kingdom of The Netherlands
    Posts
    4,151

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Funeh View Post
    I read it, I thought that "Sauron" stood for the "sauron armies"...
    I thought you understood it that way, that was why I specifically referenced the last part of the quote where is says Sauron only just avoided to be captured.

    Cant really imagine how he himself could be defeated in battle, when he slayed 2 kings at the Dagorlad, when there was the greates elven/men host.
    (...)
    It is as Feanaro said. He was a Maia, and one of the mightiest even, but it seems actual battle never has been his strongest point.
    I think it does not matter that much in Sauron's defeat that the great host was present. Who else but Elendil and Gil-galad would have dared to even face him?

    Your original question does make me wonder though, why did Sauron himself lead the invasion of Eriador? That was certainly not the way he preferred to do these things. AFAIK he was more of the Denethor school of commanding an army.
    Personally I think it is because he hoped to come in possession of one or even more of the the three Elven rings. IMO that would not be a totally convincing argument though. As long as Sauron wore the the One ring, he could be sure that anybody he send to collect the Three for him would do exactly what he wanted.
    Which brings me to another question. Is there any reference to the three having a sort of "my preciousss" effect on their bearers?
    Last edited by Veteraan; September 23, 2014 at 08:55 AM.

    Citizenised by Shankbot - Patron of b0Gia - House de Bodemloze

  18. #2838
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    3,106

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    Your original question does make me wonder though, why did Sauron himself lead the invasion of Eriador? That was certainly not the way he preferred to do these things. AFAIK he was more of the Denethor school of commanding an army.
    Personally I think it is because he hoped to come in possession of one or even more of the the three Elven rings. IMO that would not be a totally convincing argument though. As long as Sauron wore the the One ring, he could be sure that anybody he send to collect the Three for him would do exactly what he wanted.
    I suspect it was due to wanting to torture the location of the Rings out of Celembrimbor. It is also possible that he had no lieutenants he could trust with the task at the time.

    Which brings me to another question. Is there any reference to the three having a sort of "my preciousss" effect on their bearers?
    I don't think so. We see all those who have worn the Three during the books and they seem pretty much fine.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
    Proud supporter and fan of Fourth Age: Total War

  19. #2839
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
    Patrician Citizen Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Gaming Emeritus

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    20,306
    Blog Entries
    46

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    one question

    Is there any tale or hint regarding what actually happened to the Three Rings when they arrived in Aman? Had they lost their powers completely (becoming mere jewels), or where they somewhat restored and used to further increase the glory of the Undying Lands?
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  20. #2840
    Macilrille's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Posts
    2,491

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Not that I know off, and as I interpret it they had lost all power.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •