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Thread: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

  1. #1
    Count of Montesano's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Since I started a new HRE campaign recently, I've been reading up on famous medieval battles. I was startled to discover the number of KEY battles and wars the Germans lost from the 1100s through the 1500s.

    Legnano 1176 - One of Germany's most venerated military leaders, Frederick Barbarossa, leading a crack German professional army is defeated by Italian militia

    Lake Peipus - Teutonic knights utterly defeated by Novgorod militia

    Bouvines 1214 - The French rout German Emperor Otto IV and his allies

    Leignitz 1241 -Vanguard of German knights leading an East European coalition massacred by Mongol "scouting" force

    Tannenburg 1410 - Tuetonic Order destroyed by Polish/Lithuanian army

    In each of these cases, the Germans lost an incredibly important battle - ie, Legnano kept Northern Italy out of the hands of the emperor; Tannenburg marked an end to the Teutonic Knight's military power.

    I'll admit that right now I'm just looking at things from a medieval standpoint. But it does seem that the medieval ancestors of modern Germans ( I know, I know, Germany didn't exist in medivieval times) lost far more key battles than the medieval French - who can claim to have conquered England and large swathes of the Middle East before hitting a losing streak in the later crusades/100-Years War. Then there's the little fact that the French eventually won the 100-Years War while the HRE had a bad habit of winning lots of minor battles but losing when it mattered most.

    So here's what I don't get - why do the Germans get such a free pass as conquering masterminds in terms of military history and the French are always denigrated as being abject serial losers. Yes, one could argue that the German "military" (whether you look at the Teutonic Knights or Frederick The Great's Prussians) was one of the most professional of medieval-early modern Europe. But that fact only highlights battles in which crack German troops were defeated by troops with inferior equipment and experience (Legnano, Peipus, Tannenburg). Fast forward a few hundred years and you'll see Napoleon crush the Prussians (who will only make a comeback once England and Russia have the French on the ropes) and a united Germany lose two World Wars.


    So, and keep in mind this is coming from an HRE faction fan and German American, does anyone else find it strange that people will start "Has France ever won a major war" but never "Has Germany ever not stepped on its own weinershnitzel during a major war"? Surely Germany either deserves the same amount of razzing for past losses, or France deserves a little more respect for at least winning wars even in the face of such horrible defeats as Crecy and Agincourt.

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    therussian's Avatar Use your imagination
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Count of Montesano View Post
    So, and keep in mind this is coming from an HRE faction fan and German American, does anyone else find it strange that people will start "Has France ever won a major war" but never "Has Germany ever not stepped on its own weinershnitzel during a major war"? Surely Germany either deserves the same amount of razzing for past losses, or France deserves a little more respect for at least winning wars even in the face of such horrible defeats as Crecy and Agincourt.
    Hitler's seemingly unstoppable blitzkrieg comes to mind. As well as legendary Prussian military strength under Frederick William I and his son Frederick II

    And Leignitz is a very unfair example. I mean come on, they were battling the freaking Mongols. Any other European army would have suffered the same fate.

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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    People who only remember the latest major war...
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    The Op. seems to forget that Barbarossa later captured Milan....and destroyed it.
    He won against the seljuks in Iconium in 1191. A spectacular victory.
    1278 Dürnkrut
    And 1526 Pavia....another famous german victory.
    1686 mainly german armies recapture Buda
    1697 Zenta
    1705 Höchstadt
    1870-71 Franco-Prussian victory especially Sedan, Yvelotte etc.
    1866 Königratz
    1939 Poland
    1940 Sedan
    early 1941 series of german victories

    and much much more...
    USA has never won that much battles than germans did.
    I think this nation bashing should end now. Don't bash anyone.
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    therussian's Avatar Use your imagination
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    While at the time even the thought of "Germany" didn't exist, has everyone forgotten about Teutoberg? The fact that even the mighty Romans couldn't subdue Germania?

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    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    ppl keep saying 30years war, well it was first fought against bohemians, than germans vs. germans, then swedes entered, french only captured castles on the german-french border, and it was something they otherwise could not dare to do...
    And both in Spanish succession wars and in the 7years war french were not victors...were some german powers were on the winning side.
    Germany was not a state then, therefore it was very vulnerable.
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Well the ancestors of the Germans do have the spectacular claim to have fought in practically every major battle (often on opposing sides) as mercenaries from the various independent states. A divided Germany was the largest recruitment pool for mercenaries from the Roman to the Napoleonic Age, and in so far they are a real warrior nation. Germans may not have fought and won for the benefit of their own country but they were fighting nonetheless. Even the American war of Independence started as colonists versus German mercenaries in British service if I remember correctly. And during the siege of Constantinople in 1453 the first wave of attack from the Turks were actually German mercenaries, Napoleon's 600.000 men strong army was composed mainly of German troops, the Roman (and Byzantine) army consisted for a large part of German mercenaries, and the list goes on .

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    Sidus Preclarum's Avatar Honnête Homme.
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    ppl keep saying 30years war, well it was first fought against bohemians, than germans vs. germans, then swedes entered, french only captured castles on the german-french border, and it was something they otherwise could not dare to do...
    Yeah. sure. Rocroi, Lens, Freiburg, Zusmarshausen, Nordlingen never happened, they were a clever hoax.


    And both in Spanish succession wars and in the 7years war french were not victors...were some german powers were on the winning side.
    the first one was a draw.
    and about the second, well,
    "in the war of Austrian succession, french were a victor.... while some geman powers (ie all save Bavaria and Prussia) were on the losing side"
    in other words: "so what? "

    Germany was not a state then, therefore it was very vulnerable.
    Germany didn't exist then, therefore it was invulnrable...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Germany IS still seen as a warrior nation, come on...you tried to take over all of Europe TWICE. And came damn close. Germany is a country of rogues and bad asses. One world war wasnt enough for you guys, you answered the bell for round 2 and came out swingin'.

    My guess is world war 1 and word war 2 is why nobody calls germany weak.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Odovacar is right, the 30 Years War was not fought against the Germans, but by Catholics against Protestants. When the Protestants started losing, Catholic France came to the Protestant Princes aid and invaded some Catholic German Princedoms to weaken the Austrians which they then got to keep in 1648.

    And Rocroi and Lens are in Belgium, back then a part of Spain (or was it Austria).

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    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    I dont say that ppl should instead picking on France than Germany but that the germans always lost in every war is clearly a lie.

    Of course when the little german states faced a centralised unified France they were defeated but a unified Germany could never be defeated just by France alone.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
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    HIC SVNT LEONES's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Malta kicked Germany's ass once. During world war II. lol.

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    Edmonton's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Liegnitz supposed to be Polish ,Teuton assisted battle.
    Lake Peipius was an ice-breaking victory not Novgorodians martial prowess as they were starting to loose as thing with ice happened .Russian sacrificed they main line .Then Russians had 5000 from which 1000 !!! Elite drugina troops and Crusaders only 2000-2500 from which only 200 ! knight-brothers the rest mainly Danish volunteers and Estonian mercs. All in all it wasn't bad performance for Crusaders.They even could win man to man if not all that cunning.
    Last edited by Edmonton; February 19, 2007 at 06:16 PM.
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    Feliks's Avatar Ω
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Do you know why the modern day French flag and the common "open" flag businesses fly have the same color scheme?

    Because in WWII when the Nazi's reached Paris all the white flags in the country were off being used on the front, so their only means of surrender was to hang an open flag over the city.

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    Legio XX Valeria Victrix's Avatar Great Scott!
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton View Post
    Liegnitz supposed to be Polish ,Teuton assisted battle.
    Lake Peipius was an ice-breaking victory not Novgorodians martial prowess as they were starting to loose as thing with ice happened .Russian sacrificed they main line .Then Russians had 5000 from which 1000 !!! Elite drugina troops and Crusaders only 2000-2500 from which only 200 ! knight-brothers the rest mainly Danish volunteers and Estonian mercs. All in all it wasn't bad performance for Crusaders.They even could win man to man if not all that cunning.
    The ice breaking is largely unimportant to the outcome of Peipus. Lake Peipus is only a few inches deep in places, and hardly deeper in any place than the waist of a normal man. Besides, when the ice broke, the Teuton's were already in retreat and the battle lost.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feliks
    Do you know why the modern day French flag and the common "open" flag businesses fly have the same color scheme?

    Because in WWII when the Nazi's reached Paris all the white flags in the country were off being used on the front, so their only means of surrender was to hang an open flag over the city.
    And this means the French lost every war/battle/skirmish they ever fought how? I can tell you the story of how Washington spanked the drunken, loutish Hessians at Trenton, but that won't mean that all Germans suck in war.

    Face it, everyone. Every nation on the planet has its military victories and its losses. I wouldn't underestimate any of them, to be perfectly frank. I think the Germans are as RZZZA said, their scrappy, they will fight and fight hard. But so will the French. Anyone who takes an unbiased and objective look at their history will agree with me.


    "For what is the life of a man, if it is not interwoven with the life of former generations by a sense of history?" - Cicero

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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio XX Valeria Victrix View Post
    And this means the French lost every war/battle/skirmish they ever fought how? I can tell you the story of how Washington spanked the drunken, loutish Hessians at Trenton, but that won't mean that all Germans suck in war. .
    No, but I think it addresses the underlying cause of the phenomenon in question; the truth is, France is just so easy make fun of.

    That, and Germany has been England and the U.S.'s enemy in the last two really major wars. If we were to make fun of Germany's military capabilities it wouldn't go a long way in painting the picture of our triumphant victory over a battle-hardened foe. But we "saved" France in World Wars, what is better than coming to the aid of the weak and defenseless? Therefore, by portraying France as the "damsel in distress" who foolishly thinks that she can take care of herself and Germany as the capable enemy it furthers our nation pride and sense of accomplishment.

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    Legio XX Valeria Victrix's Avatar Great Scott!
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Yes, but its just plain not true. Especially in World War I. The US was instrumental to success in that war, but I would not say for a minute that we "saved" France at all. We rejuvenated the Allies and boosted morale, where it became possible to withstand the final German offensive and begin the counterattack towards Germany.

    And I find it so incredibly amazing that Americans slander the French military when we owe our existence as a country to the very French military some of us deride.


    "For what is the life of a man, if it is not interwoven with the life of former generations by a sense of history?" - Cicero

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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?


    Face it, everyone. Every nation on the planet has its military victories and its losses. I wouldn't underestimate any of them, to be perfectly frank. I think the Germans are as RZZZA said, their scrappy, they will fight and fight hard. But so will the French. Anyone who takes an unbiased and objective look at their history will agree with me.
    Not true. The vatican city have never suffered a military defeat. After all, the papal states no longer exist....

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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio XX Valeria Victrix View Post
    Yes, but its just plain not true. Especially in World War I. The US was instrumental to success in that war, but I would not say for a minute that we "saved" France at all. We rejuvenated the Allies and boosted morale, where it became possible to withstand the final German offensive and begin the counterattack towards Germany.
    In the world of public opinion perception is reality.

    I was mainly talking about WWII for a bit there, but if I'm not mistaken Germany was still occupying French lands up until they surrendered in WWI, but yeah, that does fall short of "saving".

    Didn't the French government spend so much in financing our revolutionary war that in order to make up for it they overtaxed their people, leading to the revolution several years later?

    In a very obscure way it could be argued that a free France and a free U.S.A. would not exist without each other. And if that really is the case, you could be sure we'd hate them for it.

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    Feliks's Avatar Ω
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    Default Re: Everyone picking on France's military history - why not Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026 View Post
    Not true. The vatican city have never suffered a military defeat. After all, the papal states no longer exist....
    The crusades the Pope called were failures at the end, surely that must count as an indirect defeat?

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