Faction Thread: The Russians

[Serious Spamurai]

A thread to discuss the russian faction. Any pictures, unit lists names etc. are to be posted here. I'll edit the first post as we get more material/information.

Units:

Names:

characters

Aleksandr
Dmitriy
Fyodor
Gavriil
Georgiy
Grigoriy
Konstantin
Pyotr
Symeon
Timofey
Vasiliy
Aleksei
Andrei
Boris
Grechin
Iosif
Ivan
Maksim
Mikhail
Miloslav
Miroslav
Nikita
Pavel
Radoslav
Sidor
Stanimir
Stepan
Sviatopolk
Tvorimir
Vladimir
Voislav
Yaroslav
Zaiats
Zavid
Zhiroslav
Zhiznobud
Artyom
Boleslav
Sergei
Viktor

surnames

Adashev
Basmanov
Bashkin
Borisov
Buturlin
Chelyadnin-Fedorov
Danilov
Glinskiy
Godunov
Golitsin
Gorbatiy
Katyrev
Khokholkov
Khvorostinin
Kobylin
Kolychev
Kurakin
Kurbskiy
Lykov
Matveev
Morozov
Nagoy
Naryshkin
Novosiltsev
Nashchokin
Obraztsov
Patrikeev
Pleshcheev
Pushkin
Repnin
Romanov
Ryapolovskiy
Saburov
Skuratov
Shein
Sheremetev
Shuyskiy
Sobakin
Troekurov
Tuchko
Yuriev
Yakovlev
Velyaminov
Viskovatiy
Vorontsov
Zakharin
Alekseev
Andreev
Boldin
Buiakov
Chernekov
Chortov
Dmitriev
Drozdov
Grechinov
Grigoriev
Ivanov
Ivanovich
Kiselev
Kozlov
Kuritsev
Maksimov
Malov
Mikhailovich
Miloslavov
Miroslavov
Nezhkov
Nikitin
Orekhov
Pavlov
Radoslavov
Sbyslavov
Shchukin
Sidorov
Stanimirov
Stepanov
Tvorimirov
Vasilievich
Voislavov
Volchkov
Zaitsev
Zakhariev
Zavidov
Zhiroslavov
Zhiznobudov
Zubov
Rurikovich

bynames

Belozerskiy
Dorogobuzhskiy
Holmskiy
Moskovskiy
Mstislavskiy
Obolenskiy
Odoevskiy
Pronskiy
Pskovskiy
Rostovskiy
Ryapolovskiy
Ryazanskiy
Sitskiy
Shakhovskoy
Starodubskiy
Staritskiy
Suzdalskiy
Telyatevskiy
Tverskoy
Trubetskoy
Vereyskiy
Volynskiy
Vorotynskiy
Vyazemskiy


women

Agafia
Anastasia
Anna
Elena
Evdokia
Evfimia
Evfrosinia
Evpraksia
Feodora
Feodosia
Feofania
Fevronia
Gliceria
Irina
Ksenia
Marfa
Melania
Maria
Natalia
Olga
Pelagia
Praskovia
Sofia
Ulyana
Varvara
Vasilisa
Zoya
Aleksandra
Antonina
Ekaterina
Gravriia
Khristin
Maritsa
Nataliia
Severina
Tatiana

Pictures:

[Yggdrasill]

Muscovy units, 1490-1555 period


Cavalry:

1. Dvoriani - the heaviest cavalry (boyars with barded horses)
2. Boyars - medium (but still fast) cavalry, horse archers, saber as secondary
3. Pomestnaya Konnitsa (pomeshchiki) - light cavalry, horse archers, sovnya (special kind of polearm) secondary
5. Tatarskaya Konnitsa – vassal Tatars (Kazaki unit), horse archer
6. Sluzhiliye Kazaki - Cossaks - lance or bows


Infantry:

1. Streletsi
2. Gorodovye Kazaki - garrison cossaks
3. Datochnye liudi (registered people) – levied commoners - arquebus armed
4. Archer levy - like number 3, but armed with bows
5. Garrison troops (Gorodovye liudi) – quite well equipped infantry, polearms
6. Ratnik - basically boyars on foot
7. Town militia - spearmen
8. Hand-gunners (Pishchalshchiki) - early firearm infatnry
9. Crossbowmen
10. Perhaps pikemen – Kopeyshchiki - Muscovy didn’t have pikemen before 1630-ies, but they didn’t need it earlier than that - if the need arose (If they fught against heavy cavalry of the western type) in the 16th century, because of the nature of their military system I am quite certain that they would be able to field low to medium quality pikemen quite fast

[Serious Spamurai]

What does a Sovnya look like? Is it that glaive-type lance?
That's a Good list +rep. Could you write more on what armour/clothing the unit's should have. We could also do with some pictures.

[Icefrisco]

Units:

Cavalry:
Gorodovye Cossacks
Russian Regular Cavalry
Boyars
Kazaks
Free Cossacks
Dvor Cavalry
Slobad Cossacks

Missile:
Streltsi
Crossbowmen

Melee:
Levy(basically peasants)
Woodsmen
Gorodovye Infantry
Vybrannye Infantry
Storozhevoi Polk
Large Polk
Foot Dvor

Note: I am not sure how accurate these names are. I got them from a website without doing much research.

[Yggdrasill]

I have a really bad dial up connection at home, so posting pictures is a problem. I usually send a bunch of pictures by mail from work. The best way to do it for me would be to send pictures to one of the team members by mail, and then he (or she ) can upload it somewhere for others to see...
Any volunteers?

Sovnya is displayed in one of the pictures posted by Otark in the Late Medieval Units Proposals thread, this one:

http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?i...e1416vvjs4.gif

Polk - this is not a unit in itself, this is a tactical formation on the battlefield, can be translated as regisment or wing etc. Usually early Russian armies consisted of several Polks, left wing, right wing, main, vanguard, reserve. Unit witihin Polks varied, infantry, cavalry etc.

Vybrannye Infantry, Russian Regular Cavalry - later period I think, I have to check

Foot Dvor - Ratnik unit is the foot exuivalent of Dvoriani cavalry (Dvor cav in MTW2)

[otark]

@Yggdrasill

1. I strongly advise exclude the names and surnames you have added after mine done for justme because its are irrelevant for diffeent reasons.

2. boyars had their own dvoryans (military servants) being the highest possible feodal rank, so better probably so:



Cavalry
at start Dvor - Tsar's own deti boyarskie heavy cavalry
late Zhiltsi - Tsar's guard heavy cavalry
Boyars heavy armored cavalry (with head and front barding)
Novgorodian boyars "kovanaya rat'" - super heavy cavalry (probably imported gothic armour )
Pomestnoe opolchenie - main part of army, versatile medium armored cavalry bow and sabre
Sluznilye tatary mailed light cavalry + horse archers
Mounted gorodovye kazaki
Kazaki - light cavalry lancers

Infantry:

late Foot zhiltsi - Tsar's guard polearms
at start pishchalniks - arquebusirs
late Streltsi - musketeers + berdysh as secondary weapon
dismounted pomestnoe opolchenie
dismounted kazaki
gorodovye kazaki
archers medium composit bow sabre good at close combat
pososhnaya rat' - low moral levy peasants
crossbowmen (arbalesters)

Artillery:
Pushka cannon
Tyufyak coulevrine
late Organ

[Yggdrasill]

Cavalry

Can you elaborate a bit...how do the units correlate to each other?
In the list I posted, dvoriani are the elite, barded cavalry. Boyars are medium cavalry, and Pomestnaya konnitsa are teh lowest grade.
As far as I know, majority of Russian (muscovite) cavalry were pomeschinki, landed military servitors. Most of them were rather poor, armoured with a tegilay (quilted armour) and armed with bows and sabres, or sovnya 'lance'. Middle, more wealthy were armoured in mail-and-palte armour like the Ottomans, used shields, bows, sabres, maces etc. (Boyars in my list9. Small elite units consisted of the rulers immediate dvoriani or deti boiarskie followers .

So if we use this system of levels on your list:

Level 1 - tegilay armour, light cavalry - Pomestnoe opolchenie
Level 2 - ????
Level 3 - dvor (later Zhiltsi), kovanaya rat

How does the 'Boyars heavy armored cavalry ' unit fit into this? As far as I know, russin cav used very littel horse armour, and Level 3 units can fulfill that role. What abut Level 2 units, how should they be called?

Infantry

archers medium composit bow sabre good at close combat - can they be called Gorodovye liudi

pososhnaya rat' - are tehy armed with bows or polearms?

What about Datochnye liudi unit I suggested? I found a specific reference to it in my sources, as a sort of militia type unit..maybe some kind of polearm unit, or spearman...

Do you think we should include pikemen for Muscovy? I know that the first pike unit were recruited in 1632, but that is because prior to this period Muscovy didn't need pikemen since they mostly fought against tatars and Poland...but considering the almost unlimited power of the tsars, I imagine that it would be much of a problem to create a corps of pikemen even eariler if the need arose. for example, Ivan IV the terrible formed the streltsi in 1552, and by 1560 there were already 13000 of them..so Moscow rulers were definitely able to raise large numebrs of troops very quickly, once they applied themselves

[Serious Spamurai]

Right, having found my credit card at last I can order some more osprey books and such, and milkshape. There's one about russia from 1250-1500 which should be useful, especially for armour. The below is the armour Steppe warriors should have:

Light Mail:
Long Mail Coat, Helm, sometimes an Aventail.

Heavy Mail:
Long Mail Coat, Helm, veil of Mail or Aventail, Lamellar or scale body armour.

Partial Plate:
Yushman, Bakterez or Kolontar type armour, helm with face mask or veil of mail.


Also, was the Sovnya also used dismounted? It could make a cool unit if it was.

[Yggdrasill]

In the 1494-1555 time period, lamellar and especially scale armour were obsolete and were no loger used, except as a lčelft over from past times for some less well to do warriors.

Mail-and-plate korazin like the Ottomans used replaced them, as it negated the need ot use two types of armour at the same time (mail and on top of it a lamellar armour).

[Serious Spamurai]

In the 1494-1555 time period, lamellar and especially scale armour were obsolete and were no loger used, except as a lčelft over from past times for some less well to do warriors.

Mail-and-plate korazin like the Ottomans used replaced them, as it negated the need ot use two types of armour at the same time (mail and on top of it a lamellar armour).

Ahh, okay, I didn't know that, I'd have thought they'd have still been using it considering how often they used it in the past. Thanks for telling me. What should go in it's place? Another form of armour, or just mail with more of the extras added (Veils, Gloves, trousers)?
How about:

Heavy Mail:
Long Mail Coat, Helm, veil of Mail or Aventail, Mail trousers and gloves.

[Yggdrasill]

In the West plate, brigandine, jacks, with some mail was the norm.

In the east, some quilted armor (in Russia and Lithuania), mail (in the form of long or short sleeved mail shirts, waist high), with attached small plates, eastern style vambraces, sisak helmets, and sometimes thigh mail-and-plate armour.

If you give me your mail I can send you pictures of Russians, ottomans, Mamluks with such armour

[otark]

Cavalry

Can you elaborate a bit...how do the units correlate to each other?
In the list I posted, dvoriani are the elite, barded cavalry. Boyars are medium cavalry, and Pomestnaya konnitsa are teh lowest grade.
As far as I know, majority of Russian (muscovite) cavalry were pomeschinki, landed military servitors. Most of them were rather poor, armoured with a tegilay (quilted armour) and armed with bows and sabres, or sovnya 'lance'. Middle, more wealthy were armoured in mail-and-palte armour like the Ottomans, used shields, bows, sabres, maces etc. (Boyars in my list9. Small elite units consisted of the rulers immediate dvoriani or deti boiarskie followers .

So if we use this system of levels on your list:

Level 1 - tegilay armour, light cavalry - Pomestnoe opolchenie
Level 2 - ????
Level 3 - dvor (later Zhiltsi), kovanaya rat

How does the 'Boyars heavy armored cavalry ' unit fit into this? As far as I know, russin cav used very littel horse armour, and Level 3 units can fulfill that role. What abut Level 2 units, how should they be called?

Infantry

archers medium composit bow sabre good at close combat - can they be called Gorodovye liudi

pososhnaya rat' - are tehy armed with bows or polearms?

What about Datochnye liudi unit I suggested? I found a specific reference to it in my sources, as a sort of militia type unit..maybe some kind of polearm unit, or spearman...

Do you think we should include pikemen for Muscovy? I know that the first pike unit were recruited in 1632, but that is because prior to this period Muscovy didn't need pikemen since they mostly fought against tatars and Poland...but considering the almost unlimited power of the tsars, I imagine that it would be much of a problem to create a corps of pikemen even eariler if the need arose. for example, Ivan IV the terrible formed the streltsi in 1552, and by 1560 there were already 13000 of them..so Moscow rulers were definitely able to raise large numebrs of troops very quickly, once they applied themselves

As I wrote above, dvoryane can't be better armored than boyars, because they of lower rank and generally poorer. What I have proposed is:

Dvor, as starting guard unit, consisted of the Tsar's own closest military servants. It is elit not in terms of the most heavily armored cavalry but as the most high morale and disciplined. They have no horse armor.
Boyars are the standart heavy cavalry with barding in Tatar style (head and breast of a horce), but not very disciplined. They have mail under pantsir' (plate armor), helm, shield, sabre,
lance, maybe facemask (lichina). Novgorodian boyars gothic cav should be an aor very expensive unit. (Serious samurai, you'll see them all in your coming Osprey).
Pomestnoe opolchenie aka pomestnaya konnitsa - yes, they could be wealther or poorer, but mostly they have mail or some kind of plate, helm, shield, bow and sabre and/or polearm. Poorest had only bow, wealthiest looked like
boyars, still i think they are medium cavalry in overall.
level 1 - light cavalry cossaks, tatars, mounted gorodovye kazaki
level 2 - medium cavalry pomestnoe opolchenie
level 3 - heavy cavalry Dvor, Boyars, kovanaya rat'

Gorodovye lyudi = city or town militia

Pososhnaya rat' usually used as working force but if they went to battle they had various kinds of polearms.

Datochnye lyudi (recruits) had come to existence in the middle of XVII cent. They were a try to create Western-type army serving in "polki soldatskogo stroya" as musketeers, pikemen and reitars. I assume it's some time after the mod era.

About pikemen... In variouos situations, like sieges, Russians badly needed infantry. They used dismounted cavalry, peasants from "pososhnaya rat'", POW, pishchalniks - predessors of streltsi, mercenaries, but still didn't use pikemen. I think better follow RL. Let's them have their strong points and weak points, it's up to commander to use what he has wisely.

[Yggdrasill]

Boyars are the standart heavy cavalry with barding in Tatar style (head and breast of a horce), but not very disciplined. They have mail under pantsir' (plate armor), helm, shield, sabre,
lance, maybe facemask (lichina).

I'll send you a picture of a horse bard so you can say if it's correct, ok?

Pomestnoe opolchenie aka pomestnaya konnitsa - yes, they could be wealther or poorer, but mostly they have mail or some kind of plate, helm, shield, bow and sabre and/or polearm. Poorest had only bow, wealthiest looked like
boyars, still i think they are medium cavalry in overall.

What does 'opolchenie' mean? Curiosity..

So maybe this way. Pomestnoe opolchenie level 1 armour is quilted tegilay armour, level 2 armour upgrade is mail-and-plate…that way one unit cvan represent both the poorer pomeschiki and the wealthier ones (as far as I read, most were quite poor, especially as the 16th century wore on, and the population density in Russia declined, since their wealth was derived froim the amount of land they enjoyed that was actually farmed...no farmers to work the land means no income)

Based on what I read, I think this unit should be fast cavalry...russian horses were generally small and lively, suitable for horse archers, and not so for lancers… do you agree?

Gorodovye lyudi = city or town militia

So then Gorodovye lyudi can be used as a unit or no?

Have you any suggestions for the name 'archers medium composit bow sabre good at close combat'? This name is a bit too long

[otark]

2Yggdrasill
Yes, send it.

Opolchenie means non-standing, non-regular army.

I just have read an article about pomestnaya konnitsa and it stated that 2/3 of pomeshchiks posessed metal armor in the end of XVI cent. But I agree with
you on basic tegilay level (btw sometimes they sew metal plates into tegilay.
Serious samurai is more correct in his description of the armor contemporary to the mod era. I'd add to the list baidana, kuyak, zertsalo). And certainly they should be fast, really fast! In fact, they used hit-and-run tactics all the time.

I'd like to have some time to dig up more on gorodovye lyudi. my sources are a bit ambigous and evasive.

I just tried to describe qualities of archers, sorry for bad punctuation. Maybe we'll name them simply luchniki (bowmen)?

P.S. I can't upload images to imageshack any more

[otark]

Useful English links relevant to the theme:

http://www.ai-press.com/SolclPNA-H.html dictionary of Russian historical terms

http://www.xenophon-mil.org/ a DBA site with keen interest to Russia

and especially:http://www.xenophon-mil.org/rushisto...s/ivanbook.htm
a profound and accurate description of the XVI cent. armor, weapons, army and tactics with illustrations

[otark]

@Iggdrasill

As it appears, gorodovye lyudi were provincial dvoryane and deti boyarskie named so in opposit to moscovskie lyudi who lived around capital and were of higher social position.

I have an idea about representing the poorer part of opolchenie: to create the horse archers unit named noviks (novices), with tegilay, "paper shapka"
(padded cap) like that in the middle http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...lateshapka.jpg, armed with bow only. Ther level of armor:

1 level tegilay
2 level kuyak (metal scales sewn into tegilay)
3 light maille

[Serious Spamurai]

Having just got MS3D I decided to have a little play around with Russian units:



This is just a test-model, where I can try out different weapon combinations and such, I can combine them into individual units later. He will be wearing Kolontar/Yushman type armour, I plan on removing the quiver and adding arrows to his sadaak. This will probably be one of the heaviest armour types, just behind western plate. I need more pics for the helms, I was planning on using the one on the left in the post above, it looks like it provides good protection, I was also thinking of adding one of the face-masks like the ones on the russian late bodyguard unit but I'm not sure if they were still used at this time.

[Serious Spamurai]

Haven't done any modding for renaissance today, been focusing on my polearms mod and on trying to work out a way to get flails to work, I think I might just have cracked it, with major thanks to prof for the suggestion. So we might be able to fit a flail in to the mod.

[otark]

Having just got MS3D I decided to have a little play around with Russian units:



This is just a test-model, where I can try out different weapon combinations and such, I can combine them into individual units later. He will be wearing Kolontar/Yushman type armour, I plan on removing the quiver and adding arrows to his sadaak. This will probably be one of the heaviest armour types, just behind western plate. I need more pics for the helms, I was planning on using the one on the left in the post above, it looks like it provides good protection, I was also thinking of adding one of the face-masks like the ones on the russian late bodyguard unit but I'm not sure if they were still used at this time.

Ups... Sorry for false inf. I've seen some misleading images. Of course, saadak is a kit: bowcase and quiver: bowcase is on the left side, quiver on the right side. Like these (special tsar's):
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...tar/saadak.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ar/saadak2.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ar/saadak4.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ar/saadak3.jpg

that one simple:http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/orshabow.jpg

Shields:http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...bresplates.jpg, http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ar/shields.jpg, http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...hieldround.jpg, this one is persian, but the same type as one of previous: http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ianshield.jpg: a contempopary icon, look at the shield on the ground under the horse
of the commander http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a.../shieldXVI.jpg.

some sabers:http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...rescabbard.jpg, http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a.../sabrepers.jpg, http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a.../shamshir2.jpg, http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ishswords2.jpg, http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a.../turkishsw.jpg, http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/shamshir.jpg

Heavy cavalryman 16th:http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...avrussian2.jpg, http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...avrussian1.jpg.

some armor:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...smisyurka2.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...arkolchuga.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...bahterets2.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ntar/zerts.jpg


a Russian shishak: http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ar/shishak.jpg, while these shishaks http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...hagge_1562.jpg and http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...hak_1560_B.jpg are named "yerikhonskaya shapka" jericho cap in Russian http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...jerichocap.jpg.

Definitely, facemasks were not in use by infantry and maybe the most heavy cavalry like Novgorodians used them only.

[Serious Spamurai]

Right, I'll fix the sadaak thing, putting the quiver and bow case in the right places. I can use the helms from quapuluku (upgraded and un-upgraded) for some of the models, the heaviest armoured troops will have veils on their helms. What did they used to wear under their armour, silken, wool or leather clothes? Most soldeirs have a small part of the underclothing showing I want it to be right, I was going to have a go at doing the body armours tomorrow, they will use the same model but different textures. I'll post screens when I'm done or whatever tomorrow.