DISCUSSION: Ethnicity 'Traits'

[Ahiga]

This is the topic devoted to discussion of our plan to implement ethnicity traits in the factions in a way similar to EB's own. We may or may not implement it for 1.0 - I doubt we will, as Mirage is kind of the chief and sole coder, and he already has quite a bit on his shoulders.

But we can still get the ball rolling and concept's down for when it is implemented (I really doubt it will not be, as Mirage has expressed a good interest in it).

Please remember that we are going for a somewhat leaner version of what EB had. Ethnicities should be of large groups and not the smallest or minor variations in the ethnic group. That being said, it would be great if we can get some specific groups rather than just a generic 'Kurd' or 'Turk'. It should just be the larger groups within them. They also need to be what a general or governor could be of in the given faction, as well it would be critical to come up ways to make the ethnicities different from one another, in the traits or ancillaries they might offer or encourage.

So let's try and get some ideas going for what possibilities there are for ethnicities in the various factions. Any effect of an ethnicity would not deal in absolutes, I hope, but rather just incline the general towards something.

============================================================================

An easy one would be for the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and would be ethnicities based on the various Crusading nations:

1) Norman -

2) French

3) German - Could offer an inclination to positive military traits, while threatening negative piety traits.

4) Italian - Could offer an inclination to positive trade traits, while threatening negative loyalty and piety traits (It would be seen as impious to perhaps be an agent of an Italian city that trades heavily with the Infidel)

5) "Mixed Blood Frank" (A frank who had an East-Christian parent, or grandparent) - Could offer inclinations to positive management of cities or religious unrest, while offering negatives to piety and loyalty.

[Al-Masri]

For Egypt you could have

Native Egyptian-Masri

Arabicised Egyptian

Transplanted Arab

Siwi Berber

Arabicised Nubian

Arab from Yemen

Arab from Levant

Jewish-Arab

[The Mongol]

Mongol - +100 Dread

[Ermeni]

Kurd should be added to egypt (even though their hardly lived any kurds in egypt)....Saladin's ayyubid dynasty was Kurdish...also many captains in ayubbid service where Kipchaks, cumans, turks (these where the Mameluks)

mameluks would be less loyal but better commanders

For armenia - armenian (obviously) (+loyalty and piety) .....french (-piety they are catholic)) could be added.....

armenian should also be added to the byzantine empire they where a big group within the empire....and some emperors where armenian and also a handfull generals....and some of the noble families like the Kourkouai and the Phokadai where armenian

[Qarama]

what about the mamluks? Baybars for example was turkic he was the only one who has defeated the Ilkhanates

[Miraj]

Baybars was a kypchak, wasn't he?

[jermagon]

Abbasid faction
The arabs:the majoriy of the population
shia arab( minority at that time).
sunni muslim (majority at that time).
Nastorian Christians (minority)
Jews
turkish tribes

[Ermeni]

Baybars was a kypchak, wasn't he?

correct

[Qarama]

Baybars was a kypchak, wasn't he?

yes but the Kypchaks are also turkic.

http://www.answers.com/topic/kipchaks

btw. for what is this ethnic thing good? i haven't understood it sorry

[Drtad]

btw. for what is this ethnic thing good? i haven't understood it sorry

It would influence the likelihood of people getting certain traits. For example, an Armenian would be more likely to be pious and a good cavalry commander, while an Italian would be a good trade and settlement manager.

[Miraj]

Yeah, the effects of the ethnicity could be a sensitive issue...

"Persian, 10% tax bonus, +2 management, -10 command when fighting spartans"

[Qarama]

thanks Drtad & mirage

turks maybe good as mercenary captain and good as commander and....?

[John I Tzimisces]

The trouble is giving ethnic specific names...as in you can't. AFAIK.

[Miraj]

The trouble is giving ethnic specific names...as in you can't. AFAIK.

Yup. Names, aside from the initial characters, are generally random upon birth.

[jermagon]

I have a question when a faction conquer another faction do the people of the victor faction will replace the defeated faction in cities

[Beauchamp]

Don't know...probably not
I would add for ethnicities:
Nubian
Sudanese
Syrian Arabs
Arabicised Syrians
Lebanese Arabs
Arabicised Lebanese
Philistanee (Palestinian)
Persian (!!!!)

This kind of leads back to my "tribe" idea with the Arabs and the Turks, i might need to discuss this later on with more information, but one must remember the title of Sheikh and how important family ties were (For the Franj also).

[IrAr]

For Armenia:
Armenian
Cypriot Armenian (bonus in trade, maybe looses some cavalry command)
Armenian of Edessa (less cavalry command, -3% recruitment costs)
Armenian of Jerusalem (Handles Religious Unrest better, less cavalry Command)
Armenianised Latin (less cavalry command, +1 Infantry Command)
Latin (Less Cavalry Command, Less Piety, Less Loyalty, Less Authority, Deals poorly with religious unrest, if possible: Churches are more expensive, Trade Bonus, +3 Infantry command)
Latins are screwed, but that is exactly how it was in History. *Shakes fist into the air* Damn you, most of the Lusignan Family!

[CtrlAltDe1337]

This is the topic devoted to discussion of our plan to implement ethnicity traits in the factions in a way similar to EB's own. We may or may not implement it for 1.0 - I doubt we will, as Mirage is kind of the chief and sole coder, and he already has quite a bit on his shoulders.

But we can still get the ball rolling and concept's down for when it is implemented (I really doubt it will not be, as Mirage has expressed a good interest in it).

Please remember that we are going for a somewhat leaner version of what EB had. Ethnicities should be of large groups and not the smallest or minor variations in the ethnic group. That being said, it would be great if we can get some specific groups rather than just a generic 'Kurd' or 'Turk'. It should just be the larger groups within them. They also need to be what a general or governor could be of in the given faction, as well it would be critical to come up ways to make the ethnicities different from one another, in the traits or ancillaries they might offer or encourage.

So let's try and get some ideas going for what possibilities there are for ethnicities in the various factions. Any effect of an ethnicity would not deal in absolutes, I hope, but rather just incline the general towards something.

============================================================================

An easy one would be for the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and would be ethnicities based on the various Crusading nations:

1) Norman -

2) French

3) German - Could offer an inclination to positive military traits, while threatening negative piety traits.

4) Italian - Could offer an inclination to positive trade traits, while threatening negative loyalty and piety traits (It would be seen as impious to perhaps be an agent of an Italian city that trades heavily with the Infidel)

5) "Mixed Blood Frank" (A frank who had an East-Christian parent, or grandparent) - Could offer inclinations to positive management of cities or religious unrest, while offering negatives to piety and loyalty.

This sounds like a cool idea, lets hope Mirage can code it

I had some ideas for the KoJ, similar to yours.

Normans* - +1 command, +5% tax income, -1 popularity.

Italo-Norman* - +1 command against Muslims, -1 unrest (increases public order), -5% tax.

*you could combine these two if you wanted, but I would keep them seperate

French - +1 chivalry, +1 piety, -1 command.

German - +1 command, +20 build points (for seiges), -1 piety.

Italian - +10% bonus on trade, -1 loyalty, -1 piety.

Saxon** - +5% movement, 5% discount on mercenaries, -1 command.

**I don't know how many Saxons went on the Crusades, so you might want to scrap this one.

Mixed Frank - +1 popularity, -1 squalor (increases public order/growth), -1 piety, -1 loyalty

If you wanted to, you could combine the Saxons and Normans into one and just call it English. It was around this time that people began thinking of themselves not so much as Norman or Saxon, but as Englishmen.

[PartyElite]

just some of the top of my head for Rajputs:

Marwari
Johiya
Jat
Mewari
Pathan
Sindhi - more specifically can be divided into Samma and soomra

but most of these are actually "clans".... technically ethnicities right?

cheers
-indian_boy

[IrAr]

Maybe you could replace Saxon with Angevin or English?