Afghan levy AoR units

[AlphaDelta]

Here is the Pashtun swordsmen.





I'm still not sure what other shield designs we should give them? I will go with 2 or 3 animal outlines, plus some geometric patterns if no one can think of/find anything better.

Cheers

[AlphaDelta]

Here are the Pashtun swordsmen in game.





Cheers

[iudas]

They look almost perfect to me. But are they supposed to be that colorful? Because I wouldn't think a drop of saturation is bad...

[AlphaDelta]

Yeah they are ment to be colourful. This unit represents the richer men in society so they would be able to afford more colourful clothing.

To quote our historian Ahiga:

Odds are though they could afford the more colored robes. Perhaps a blue or red(?) could make it's way into the possible options.

Cheers

[PartyElite]

wats with the swastika?
im not entirely sure about where Pashtun are from, and what there religious thingy is... so im just wondering how/why they'd have a hindu symbol on their shields.

other than that: wow!

cheers
-indian_boy

[AlphaDelta]

Once again ask Ahiga

They did once practice buddhism and hinduism before the arrival of Islam, so it could be possible the Swastica (The good luck version) found it's way to them.

[PartyElite]

oh oops, lol.

just wondering

[Kythras]

Haha @ "khyber knife"...

"You call that a knife? This is a knife!"

[The Mongol]

Those are amazing.

[Ahiga]

Once again ask Ahiga

Although we are used to less colorful units from back in RTW's era, it's mentioned that the Muslims often chose to wore very bright and vibrant colors, and Indianboy has also made the point that it is very typical of desert peoples, or those whose lands might include a lot of desert or dry lands (Like the Rajputs of North India) would choose very bright colors. I'll pull up some quotations after class. As for saturation, if Alpha wants he can drop that, but personally it looks fine to me. Really love the unit - I had been initially worried that because we had a lack of concept art for them, they'd be a problem, but Alpha's shown his immense creativity in this unit's design. It looks great! Am also glad at the suggestion of animal-like features for the shield (Think it was mirage who said that?). It gives them a very tribal look.

As for what Indianboy asked: Prior to the Muslims, Hinduism and Buddhism along with Zoroastrianism (And to a degree even Judaism. I've read, though this being less confirmed, that the Afghans once thought themselves one of the lost tribes of Israel.) held sway in the region. After all, there were those massive Buddha's which the Taliban destroyed. And from Wikipedia, and later I can pull up better sources:

Hinduism in Afghanistan dates back to the Vedic periods when both countries shared a common culture. Along with Buddhism and Zoroastrianism, Hinduism was among the most practiced religions among the local people, who were a heterogeneous mix of Iranian, Nurestani and Indo-Aryan background. Many of the local Iranian peoples embraced the Hindu religion and culture, including the Scythians, the Parthians and the Kambojas. The Hindu Shahi Kings ruled Afghanistan till 10th century AD. Afghanistan gradually converted to Islam with the Islamic conquest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Afghanistan

So I severely doubt that any pashtun would be hindu (At least of any large enough numbers), but symbols might persist, given the way that previous local religions effected Christianity (The Celtic Cross, after all).

[Strelac]

Good point. I always though that medieval time would yield some very colorful units, in contract to Rome time. ( don’t quote me; I had a C in history )
Just look at the reference provided. This fellow looks like he had a makeover by the Queer Eye for the Straight Guy


In best case, we can diffuse ( desaturate) some of the colors to obtain more realistic look.
Eitherway, I think the unit looks great.

Strelac

[iudas]

Yeah they are ment to be colourful. This unit represents the richer men in society so they would be able to afford more colourful clothing.

Yes, but them being that colourful is a little exaggerated IMO.
I don't mind anyway...

[AlphaDelta]

SirPaladin,

Which part of the world do you live in? I know from living in both the east and west that the fabrics and materials found in the west are bland and colourless compared to the east.

The bottom line is that we are attempting to create medieval Asia, and not medieval Europe, therefore bold colours will be a part of this mod.

Cheers

[Ahiga]

bold colours

But yeah, bold colors are a part of this setting. The fact is, there's not a lot of reason why people back then would have wanted to dress drably so long as they had a choice of something else. I remember people making a ruckus about Burreck's helmets having paint on them and someone saying that it was historically accurate to have none, and I then promptly posted a piece by osprey featuring many cases of Normans/europeans painting their helmets. But do you mean the brightness or the color? Because perhaps Alpha will have a different opinion if you mean the brightness, not the color (I can't speak for him of course)

This isn't against your opinion, since we all have different tastes and views on a unit. It is just that it's something that will have to be understood about this setting. Feel free to voice your thoughts on a skin if constructive, since we value all constructive criticism or opinions. :original:

[Strelac]

I think SirPaladin is concerned about the color saturation not color choice., i.e. objects looking like they just came from the factory.
However, at this point it is hard to judge the units just based on the screenshots. When it comes to appearance, I suggest waiting for the release and running the game locally to relay judge the colors and brightness.
In the mean time, I like to think that all comments are wellcome, so bring them up.

P.S. great reference Ahiga. That fellow is sure not concerned about his masculinity.

Strelac

[Miraj]

Okay guys, I have some critiques I have to mention right away about the Pashtun warriors:

Swastika: No, this should be removed. The idea of giving Pasthun soldiers a swastika is the equivalent of painting arabic logos on a crusader unit or jesus pics on a viking shield. The Afghans were the terror and bane of the Hindus and thoroughly Islamicized at this point. We're talking about a group of people that have historically built up wealth by plundering hindus and buddhists! So the swastikas are as wrong as you can get.

Hats/Turbans: Take it from a person thats from the region: the red/yellow turbans have to be changed. This is an explicity Rajput/Hindu color. I've never seen Afghans or Tajiks don a yellow turban or hat. The hats/turbans are generally rather drab colors accross the board. I disagree with the blue ones too - maybe a greyish-blue would be better. Once again, pashtun caps come in only grey, brown, black and those darker colors.

Colors: While I agree bright colors ought to be used for this mod's units I think the exception ought to be these "afghan" units. The principle behind them ought to be rough, dusty and gritty. So while I have no problem with the colors of the pashtuns - save the hats - I think there ought to be something done to make them a bit gritter and rougher looking, they need to look dusty and harsh.


However, I have nothing but praise and awe for the basic skin and model. They are fantastic and really the wild looking warriors I wanted to see!

[AlphaDelta]

Ok I made them as bland and dull as the rest of the units. I double their dirt layer and removed the swastika from the shields.

[Sinan]

BRILLAINT WORK !

I'd like to add (complement) a few points, from a regional and historical perspective:

In order to impact the audience color is important, as is GFX and sound. Your call.
Personally I would say it has to look great to the gamer AS WELL as be as accurate as can be.

However when you speak of Pashtun tribesmen from the 1100s, their dress has changed little in several hundered years. they would be wearing an old version of shalwar kameez, which is baggy pants and a long shirt. (like apha's model)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kameez

Starting in the 12th century, a series of raids and invasions established Islamic Turkic-Iranian rule -- the Delhi sultanate and later the Moghul empire -- over much of what is now northern India and Pakistan. The new rulers wore the kameez and the characteristic Turkish pants, which were called salwars or shalwars. Again, fashion followed rule and the salwar suit became popular throughout the area.

I don't propose that wiki is any authority but that is the quickest thing that I can get my hands on right now, and it is correct on this subject.

They were 'civillised'. They were hardy, rough and their whole way of existence was tough (and still is unfortunately for them). Red, orange in particular are Hindu colors, which the Pashtuns would in all likelihood would not be wearing. HinduKush (the mountain range in Afghanistan) means Hindu KILLER in Urdu and I assume it means the same in Pashtun. Note that the Sindhis, who were originally Hindus, wear to this day, orange as a national color. So there are exceptions, but Afghans are probably not part of this exception.

They should be very tough looking but Pashtuns at that time like now, I dont think they are "noble" or have any such affinity, except the kings of Afghanistan, which are history. These men should be hardcore warriors, living the warrior code, the PashTun Wali (The Code of the Pashtun).. an eye for an eye, mercy to those who ask even if they killed your father ("for God loves not transgressors" as it says in the Koran), etc...

Painting is a pretty touchy subject to some parts of Islamic tradition. Believe it or not, however, Afghanistan is a Sufi's paradise. Dramatic sunsets, parched plains, fertile lush valleys, there are billions of places to escape from society and be at peace with your self and the world. I would argue that to be historically accurate they must use Pashtun symbols such as the Khattak Sword, and Persian style motifs on their shields. I might be able to look up some images for you. Actually I have some contacts in the area and I could try and ask for images of antique shields and weapons. Better still I was going to go there anyway, well let me not get carried away, but if I go before June I'll bring you pictures. I've seen plenty of Pashtun shields, swords, spears, waraxes and other clubs, maces. Almost all have writen inscriptions, and typical Persian and Mughal style motifs. The falcon and eagle enjoy a disproportionate use followed by lions and tigers. Mostly though I've seen a lot of motifs, patterns etc. Hope you understand what I mean.

Leather, maybe even light chainmail with breastplate waistcoat is an excellent idea and it fits historically. It would get much more interesting with gunpowder weapons. Beards, nice and long but remember these guys were and are often WHITE, blue/green eyes etc. So some should look caucasian, I don't know how feasible this is but just letting you know.

Salute !

[AlphaDelta]

I would argue that to be historically accurate they must use Pashtun symbols such as the Khattak Sword, and Persian style motifs on their shield

Post examples please.

[Ahiga]

If you can get those pictures, that'd be great for when we do the Ghaznavids and Ghorids as well (Who, if not in name, will be using units who are recruited from Afghanistan and may be influenced by the Pashtuns).

Did you save the skin of the Pashtuns, Alpha? Maybe we can have them used for when the Delhi Sultanate emerges. With a few edits that keep its theme (Whether a more saber like weapon instead of their Khyber, or maybe the removal of the swastica), keeping those vibrant colors, they could work for a Muslim Indian Unit, giving an interesting unit to show the effect of the Hindi Culture on the conquering Ghorids and Ghaznavids [If we maybe make it that this unit can be recruited by them in Pakistani Areas and some of India]

If you didn't, it's fine, but maybe that'd let us use that beautiful colorful Pashtun if you would like to include it. :original:

And yeah, Sinan, I am not sure we'll be really going into the era when the Afghans began to use firearms (Or anyone did, meaning the 1400s onward), but if we do, or if we smudge history to feature matchlocks, they'll definitely be a group to gain them.