I, Claudius discussion

[Anoikis]

Time to discuss I, Claudius

Let's hear what you think.

I'll post my thoughts later, i'll be out of town all weekend.

[kv_ak]

Good book... I truly enjoyed re-reading it. Especially part about early years of Augustus's reign. I wonder where Graves took such detailed material about it. It seems that in ancient times it was common for those members of emperor's family who didn't wanted to die because of "stale figs" to act as moron and then use opportunity to took his place;
Claudius's grandmother, Livia, was famous poisoner- Svetonius wrote that when her box with poisons which she passed to Caligula, was thrown in sea by Claudius, poison was so strong that it killed all fish in that place.
Also, I never heard any mentions about Augustus's secret code which he used to cipher his documents, is this an historical fact?

[stalhandske]

I have also (almost) re-readed "I Claudius" and it sure gives nice view how the living in Rome was.Robert Graves has truly researched his history and way how he writes is enjoyable.
Must to say that way of making politics in modern world seems quite boring compared to ancient times.
I dont know is it in genuine english version or is it in bad translation (Quite old Finnish translation) but the names of places are modern,not ancient ones and for example names of military units are also modern (Regiments,not legions and Guards,not praetorians).It bothers me little bit because i like more the real ancient names.
But very good book to read.I recommend when you are too tired to play RTW but like still be in Rome.

[SbSdude]

I'm only on about p37 i'm afraid, when I went out to purchase the book I kind of bought Band of Brothers by Stephen Ambrose as well and read that first :p

I'll try and get it finished by the weekend, from what I've read so far its pretty interesting.

[kv_ak]

I wonder why we didn't also take second part of the book, Claudius the God- they are connected between each other; maybe nominate it as one of december's books?

[kv_ak]

Where's everybody? I had thought that we will discuss this great book with more vigour... three days since friday and no new posts...

[Anoikis]

Originally posted by stalhandske@Oct 14 2004, 11:29 AM

I dont know is it in genuine english version or is it in bad translation (Quite old Finnish translation) but the names of places are modern,not ancient ones and for example names of military units are also modern (Regiments,not legions and Guards,not praetorians).It bothers me little bit because i like more the real ancient names.

This is in the english version as well.

the lack of correct names does bother me considerably; i think it was meant to appeal to the masses in the 1930's

much more from me later... have a busy week...

[Trax]

Well, I`m the lucky one then, because in estonian translations the names of the places and military ranks are given in correct Roman terms.

[thegiffman]

Sooo... how bout that Livia?

:-)

I only saw the miniseries with derick jacobi (which was fantastic) - and it ends with the death of claudius. I assume that means that the miniseries combines both books. Where does the first book end?

[Anoikis]

The first book ends with the death of Caligula and the promotion of Claudius

Livia's portrayal is that of an absolute monster; but you can't help but think she is no more than a Machiavellian prince. Women were so UNenfranchised that this story line is only possible for a women of her stature.

She killed EVERYBODY!

more to come

[Anoikis]

Anybody really believe that Claudius was a republican?

Any evidence to suggest that ?

[kv_ak]

Livia was like some symbol of her time- constant intrigues and political murders forced her to act cruelly- and if she wasn't acting like a monster then her foes would kill her very quickly.Even Cleopatra failed to stop Livia's plans to make Augustus emperor.If there was a thing which she was afraid of, it was death- she demanded an oath from Claudius that if he become emperor he will deify her and create a cult of goddes Livia. Claudius as republican? Perhaps because his teacher was greek (Aphinodores) and greeks had rich tradition of city-states, and in the beginning Rome was such sity , Claudius had some warm feelings about old times of Roman republic, but as historician he clearly understood that at that moment attempt to rebuild republic will end in civil wars, and victor will become new emperor.

[thegiffman]

Well, some were certainly less cruel than others. To say that Livia was simply forced is to take a fairly low view of individual responsibility and human dignity, in my view. We must all take responsibility for our actions, despite our environment.

It is interesting though, how, in the end, I pitied Livia. She had done so much evil, and escaped getting killed herself (which she definately deserved), but in the end death comes to us all. She died old and full of years, but in the full realization of what a monster she was, and that she deserved whatever hell the afterlife had in store. A tragic end, in a sense, because knowing how bad you are is the first step to getting better - and in that sense Livia died a FAR better person than Calligula.

[Anoikis]

It would have been nice to see a family tree or something- so many characters- cousins, uncles, brothers; i often forget who was who.

[thegiffman]

Oh heck - let's see if a little controversy will get this discussion going.

Livia is an example of how much more influential women were without the right to vote. Rather than entering directly into the public square like a man might, she used her uniquely feminine position to move the men around like pawns.

G. K. Chesterton once said (before women's sufferage) that if women, rather than campaigning for the right to vote, had gone home and nagged their husbands about it, they would have it the next day.

[ParthianWarrior]

Im personally enjoying the book, But Im putting it aside for War And Peace..

[kv_ak]

If we finished discussing Livia then maybe let's talk about Augustus himself? His personality and how it influenced his politics, role of his relatives in his life etc...

[Anoikis]

Any final thoughts on I, Claudius?

[kv_ak]

Claudius is truly a classic historical fiction book, unfortunately it is not so popular nowadays like it was in 40-ties. Graves was able to depict a convincing image of roman society under rule of Augustus and his successors.

[Anoikis]

Originally posted by kv_ak@Nov 16 2004, 02:08 PM
Claudius is truly a classic historical fiction book, unfortunately it is not so popular nowadays like it was in 40-ties. Graves was able to depict a convincing image of roman society under rule of Augustus and his successors.

Good summary :p

It was 'work' (for lack of better word) to read it; sort of like the LOTR books- not written in 'Grishamcrichtonese' like many of today's novels.

I wonder if Claudius was really as intelligent and genuinely compassionate as he was portrayed (doubt it)

Still a classic, wonderful book.