This Is Blasphemy This Is Maddness

[HeronOfSparta]

THIS... WAS .... SPARTAAaaaa
in the movie 300 leonidas referred to thesbians as boy lovers and poets. the discovery channels ancient warriors shows that the men of the spartan army were lovers as well as brothers. even if a guy had a woman at home , he may lay with her a few hours but break his neck to spend the rest of his night with his partner and the rest of the boyz. this was said to be their way until the age of 30, training complete, they then go home. but hey, their still the toughest group of MisterSisters i've ever seen......besides the romans and alexander the great was said to be a booty buster also.

[Giorgos]

Are you a homophobe Heron?

[HeronOfSparta]

not at all, i just didnt know that.

[Giorgos]

What you now think you know, is by far and large, false. There is zero indication that homosexuality back then, was viewed by people in anyway different as it's viewed today.
The only historians who insist that the ancient Greeks, ancient Romans and God knows who else, were practicing homosexuality as something normal because in pre-christian times homosexuality wasn't considered bad/evil/deviation from the norm, blah and blah to infinity, are the ones who are avid practicioners of said sexual taste and would very much like their favourite historical subjects sexual preferences to mirror their own.
Certainly in writing there are parts the deal in homosexuality(of course there were people with homosexual tendencies/preferences back then, just like today), but to be convinced that it was a far reaching and all encompassing thing practiced by all is utterly laughable.

[HeronOfSparta]

300 the movie made the spartans seem as if they were above that sort of stuff. that was my original point. personally i dont discriminate against anyone.

[Giorgos]

By the way, Leonidas in the film, did not describe thesbeians as boy lovers, but atheneians if i remember correctly.

It's not about discrimination Heron, it's about reality.

[HeronOfSparta]

What you now think you know, is by far and large, false. There is zero indication that homosexuality back then, was viewed by people in anyway different as it's viewed today.
The only historians who insist that the ancient Greeks, ancient Romans and God knows who else, were practicing homosexuality as something normal because in pre-christian times homosexuality wasn't considered bad/evil/deviation from the norm, blah and blah to infinity, are the ones who are avid practicioners of said sexual taste and would very much like their favourite historical subjects sexual preferences to mirror their own.
Certainly in writing there are parts the deal in homosexuality(of course there were people with homosexual tendencies/preferences back then, just like today), but to be convinced that it was a far reaching and all encompassing thing practiced by all is utterly laughable.

thanks 4 your insight. blasted discovery channel

By the way, Leonidas in the film, did not describe thesbeians as boy lovers, but atheneians if i remember correctly.

It's not about discrimination Heron, it's about reality.

well, in reality im not a homophobe

[Racer X]

Yeah, you're trusting a history channel documentary made over ten years ago... apparently that's a more reliable source than Plutarch and Xenophon...

As I posted in another thread, our evidence on Spartan sexual lifestyles isn't completely clear, but what we have demonstrates that if anything, the city encouraged homophobia rather than bisexuality.

Mind you, I don't at all agree with what Lykurgus thought in that aspect at all, as my best friend happens to be gay.

[mitchverr]

so what if they r gay good for them builds the bonds of the brothers in arms so they fight stronger as a unit this is why it was encouraged and also in the women as well

[El Muerte]

Oh god....not again...........
Wiedespread Spartan pederasty is myth mostly made up by Athenians.
Even Aristotle confirmed that......who was btw homosexual.And Xenophon and Lycurgus also denies it...

[Praetorian Captain]

romans and alexander the great was said to be a booty buster als

In the Roman citizen branch there was this, however it was discouraged in the Army. Many legionaires looked forward to whoring (and rap) after a victory. The bond between legionaires was a bond that close kinsmen, Brothers namely, have. Since kinsmen will look out for each other they will protect the other. Not to mention that the late roman army was still made up of citizens but they were either non-Italian or half-breeds. This could have been the case in Sparta as well that they aimed for a bond of kinsmen rather then a bond of lovers.

[McMoose77]

romans and alexander the great was said to be a booty buster als

In the Roman citizen branch there was this, however it was discouraged in the Army. Many legionaires looked forward to whoring (and rap) after a victory. The bond between legionaires was a bond that close kinsmen, Brothers namely, have. Since kinsmen will look out for each other they will protect the other. Not to mention that the late roman army was still made up of citizens but they were either non-Italian or half-breeds. This could have been the case in Sparta as well that they aimed for a bond of kinsmen rather then a bond of lovers.

I agree, I mean the love between brothers is way different than lovers (well I guess it can get a little blurry in rural areas)

[Snevets]

If you give a pedifile alot of money and power, chances are he's going to use it to the extreme. A couple extreme cases trickle down through history and all of the sudden everyone thinks the Romans were extremely immoral. A couple instances of relationships between soldiers and some confusion about the meaning of the word partner and all of the sudden you have this theory about the spartans and thebans being all gay. The ancients were often far more intolerant of homosexuality than the modern world, especially legally. We may have societal norms that shun many people, but the ancients often had laws against them (take the death sentences against Spartan mentors who had relations with their pupils). People really need to abandon this theory that everyone in the ancient world was gay.

[HopliteGlory]

Yeah, my little bro attends the largest university in our state. He has a class on Ancient Greece, and upon his return home for X-mas break I asked what he had learned. Amongst many interesting things, he said,"[I]Man[I], everyone was gay back then." I was a little taken aback, but when he told me he was also informed that there were in fact ONLY 300 spartans at Thermopylae...?(don't know what the deal is with that statement, maybe my bro misunderstood). But everyone gay?

[El Muerte]

From what i saw in you post...tell your bro to change unerversity....or....mabye you should tell him to PAY ATTENTION ON CLASSES

[Racer X]

A lot of lecturers at unis still teach the gay Greek theory that really began to appear in education during the 1870s thanks to the likes of Walter Pater. Sad that even professionals are getting paid when they can't read Greek and are still trusting the same old translations.

I'm not going to say anything bad about your brother of course, but I think it'd be better time spent doing a course on learning Greek before doing classical studies.

[Praetorian Captain]

I did some looking up on the subject, and from what i can tell from some points of view the Greeks used the term 'Boy Lovers' as an insult to a certain group. Those who seemed to be pro Spartan and anti Athenian referred to them as boy lovers, while it was also the same for those Pro athenian and anti Spartan. Some historians probably read these and decided that it meant that they were actually boy lovers and that they were not just being insulted through this persons views.

[green tea]

Well, I am neither gay nor have I used my time machine to visit the ancient times (its next on my travel plan), so I don't know, of course. But this gay thing perhaps was not so immoral back then. Yes, strange for me also, but if those gay people are not called "pervert" or whatsoever, maybe it's okay- and fits in society. I have also heard very much of this stuff, not only in ancient greece, but also about the classic japaneese, and the very manly vikings. One possibility is of course, that this is a result of a conspiracy by a homosexual 130 years ago- another is that this statemant is false. Or, in other words- if so many people in ancient greece liked boys- would it make any difference?

[Sir Francis]

I think it's clear that most societies frown on homosexual relationships to some degree simply because it threatens the 'marriage' idea so necessary to perpetuating the tribe.

But the degree of acceptance is different at different times and places.

Judaeo-Christian society, which most of us are part of to some degree, is one of the least accepting of homosexuals (though this has been changing in the last century). The Greeks on the other hand were one of the more accepting societies - most people frowned upon it but it was seen as an inevitability to some degree.

Also, if women are excluded in day to day life in a society, then men often start (over perhaps several generations) to turn to one another for the expression of physical love, esp. when young and pumped with hormones and chemicals (so that boys' schools and monasteries for example sometimes became hotbeds of homo-eroticism even in times and places where it was highly discouraged).

This is modified by the acceptance of 'professional' women in society; if going to a whorehouse was common and accepted then there will be easy ways to fulfil physical desires.

Greek women were largely (but not as largely as commonly thought) excluded from daily life, esp amongst the middle classes. But to counter this, pornoi (prostitutes) and hetairoi (courtesans) were accepted, very much so in fact. The latter was less true of Sparta, but then the former was also less applicable there.

[El Muerte]

If you are making up and inserting homosexuality by force in myths, making up events and customs in some societys makes lot of difference.
First of all that makes you a lair.
Second you missguide and disinform other people by making up things and twisting some customs in societys and historical events.

It is obvious that many people are trying to "insert homosexual behavior" in history and therefore illustrate it as perfectly regular and normal thing.By force they are trying to display it as totaly acceptable and widespread thru entire history.
Im sry but it doesen't work that way.
Like Sevents said......many societys were totaly intolerant towards homosexuality and that is a FACT.
And what i hate the most when they are trying to represent Sparta as society puerly based on homosexual relationships.
I hate when someone is ......agressivley inserting all those things, making them up.
Im sry but im not tolerant toward agressivnes.
I have nothing against homosexuals, (i always say : more homosexuals - less competition when i meet a girl ) but i hate when they are trying to show themselfs as perfectly "normal" and moral people.But lately im sensing very agressive behavior....
Im sry but they are not that "normal" neither they are moral.....psihology studies have shown that over 80% of homosexuals were malested as children or thay had some form of other trauma while they were kids.
My friend studies psihology...so i picked up couple things from him.
If homosexuality is so normal and natural then nature would make us that way so we can choose wich sex we wanna be...male or female.....like in that SF novel The Left Hand of Darkness.
Once again i don't wanna sound insulting or homofobic, but pleaseeeee don't lie ourselfs.