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Thread: Faction Thread: The Scots

  1. #1
    DrIstvaan's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Faction Thread: The Scots

    Everything concerning Scotland should be posted here.

    You may want to take a look at my small mod, Like Orange in Black Chocolate.
    Under the patronage of Silver Guard

  2. #2

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    are we going to have a thread for every faction or just scotland?

  3. #3
    DrIstvaan's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    We have one already for the Swiss, and one for the Ottomans, and Hamish was advised by Sabre to apply for one for the Scots, thus I thought it was a good idea to open it.

    You may want to take a look at my small mod, Like Orange in Black Chocolate.
    Under the patronage of Silver Guard

  4. #4

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    highlanders no longer exist as clansmen, as shown in vanilla mtw2, they actually died out in the first century of the medieval ages, but they were still given the titles of certain troops as "highlanders".

    But they become much more professional now, such as "highland musketeers".

    that's just my guess, I just know they didn't stay primitive in the later ages like it's shown in vanilla.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    erm... AFAIK (and I'm no expert on the subject), the highlander Scots were organized in clans even up to the time of the battle of Culodden (sp???) in 1746 (the second jacobite rebellion). Only after that uprising were the clans "disbanded" (so to speak). So I guess that vanilla highlander could apply in our time period too... don't know for sure though

    Anyway, it's best that Hamish sort these things out - he's our Scottish expert, he should know

  6. #6
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    Well - they would need some better equipment....more "modern" kilts and so fourth....

  7. #7

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    oops.... i should have looked at the threads created while i was on vacation.stupid me.

    anyway ill add some stuff for scotland.

    James IV of Scotland, though initially on good terms with Henry VIII (and married to his sister Margaret), held firmly to the "Auld Alliance" with France. Henry, on the other hand, joined The Holy League against France. Even so, James and Henry remained on fair terms until 1513, when Henry invaded France at the head of a large force.
    Holding true to his alliance, James led an army into England. His intent was not conquest, but merely to cause a diversion which would bring Henry back from France.
    He was met at Flodden by an army of the north under the Earl of Surrey, a veteran of Bosworth Field. Flodden marks a watershed in military history, for it was the last major battle in which the longbow played a part, and one of the first in which artillery played a major role.
    According to the chivalrous practice of the time, James and Surrey set a time and place to fight. Much to Surrey's disgust, James set up his army in a good defensive position at Flodden Hill, rather than the agreed spot.
    Surrey boldly undertook a surprise march that put him between James and Scotland, and James responded by setting up a new position on Branxton Hill. After an opening barrage by artillery on both sides, the Scot Borderers charged down the hill. They initially pushed the English back, only to be repulsed by Surrey's cavalry. The bulk of James army then left their elevated position to join the attack.
    The Scots were undone as much by their choice of weapon as by the valour of their opponents; they used the long pike, a weapon introduced to the Scots only recently by their French allies. Though a fearsome weapon against cavalry, at close quarters the long pike was virtually useless, and the Scots were cut to shreds. King James and many of his lords were slain, along with perhaps 5000 of his men.
    In one stroke, Surrey and his men reduced the Scottish threat to a mere whisper. The Scots posed no further hindrance to the designs of Henry VIII for nearly three decades.
    though this is just about flodden it shows a lot about scotland at the time that can be useful for the mod. heres some:

    1.scots on good terms with french(either alliance or good relations)
    2.scots are defensive, rarely attack
    3.scots use artillery
    4.scottish unique units weak v.s. longbowmen
    5.scots use border calvary
    6.scots use long pike as well as their own traditional pike

    http://www.scotwars.com/html/narra_m...evolution.html

    heres the stuff from the article about scotland

    Scotland, threatened by a powerful and aggressive neighbor, relied on peasant levies armed with bow, spear and two-handed sword for defense.
    The cream of English light cavalry were Northerners--reivers from the volatile Anglo-Scots frontier who served in all of King Henry VIII's campaigns in France.
    reivers were also in scottish use


    from wiki
    After the death of James III in 1488, during or after the Battle of Sauchieburn, his successor James IV successfully ended the quasi-independent rule of the Lord of the Isles, bringing the Western Isles under effective Royal control for the first time. In 1503, he married Henry VII's daughter, Margaret Tudor, thus laying the foundation for the 17th century Union of the Crowns. James IV's reign is often considered to be a period of cultural flourishing, and it was around this period that the European Renaissance began to infiltrate Scotland. James IV was the last known Scottish king known to speak Gaelic, although some suggest his son could also.
    When James V finally managed to escape from the custody of the regents with the aid of his redoubtable mother in 1528, he once again set about subduing the rebellious Highlands, Western and Northern isles, as his father had had to do. He married the French noblewoman Marie de Guise. His reign was fairly successful, until another disastrous campaign against England led to defeat at the battle of Solway Moss(1542). James died a short time later. The day before his death, he was brought news of the birth of an heir: a daughter, who became Mary I of Scotland (or 'Mary, Queen of Scots'). James is supposed to have remarked in Scots that "it cam wi a lass, it will gang wi a lass" - referring to the House of Stewart which began with Walter Stewart's marriage to the daughter of Robert the Bruce. Once again, Scotland was in the hands of a regent, James Hamilton, Earl of Arran.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    Rightyho, Im here ...

    You beat me 2 it DrIstvaan!

    Firstly, ramtha unfortunatly justme is spot on ... the Highland Clan system existed right up to 1746 when the creme of the Highland Clan warriors charged to their deaths at Culloden Moor during the 45, the3rd and last Jacobite rebellion ... after that the Highland Clearances began ... and consequently my ancestors left 4 Australia ... technically the Highland Clans were the longest lasting tribal organisations in Europe.

    Hrimfar is also right ... by this time the Highlanders were still wearing the Great Plaid but were no longer exactly wild "savages" with long hair, no hats, bear chests and painted faces, we should also try and give justice to the wide variety of clan tartans being worn ant that time (and are still growing)

    afrisco this research you've done on Flodden and is good (albiet taking some of the wind out of my sails ) and demonstrates Scotlands role as balance between England and France (during that period) but if you want my advice as historian 4 Scotland then I would say for the purposes of the mod we should concentrate less on the conflict between the Highlanders, Lowlanders, Scotch Kings and Lords and more on the Auld Alliance versus the English and Scotlands role as a merc pool 4 powers like the HRE and Sweden (but thats a matter 4 a faction adding descussion)

    At the moment I'm quite happy with Scotlands position as a passive/aggressive faction (if that makes sense) but there is a pressing need to re-skin the Highland units to bring them up to date and we should also consider tweaking Scotland's unit line up as they seem a bit under-powered

    I'll get some research done on tactics and uniform and I also have some written sources heer at home on Scottish political and court intruige for the time written by reliable historians

    Id also like to put it out there that my area of expertise is not just Scotland, I also branch out into wider Gaelic (Scots-Irish) history and Celtic history including elements of mythology (Celtic, Greco-Roman, Norse) but mainly
    Gaelic stuff so if it is decided that we what to include Ireland into the game (which I think would be a good idea) I can help with research in that department as well ... what can i say, i like history

    Anyway, lets open up the floor now any suggestions there may be on the Scots

    Edit: if I remember correctly Flodden was mainly a Lowlander affair so I wouldent say that the Scottish unique unit, the Highlanders, were weak against the English entirely, I mean C'mon, just look at what happend to the English at Prestonpans against the Highlanders
    Last edited by Hamish of Clan Dickson; April 17, 2007 at 06:13 AM.






  9. #9

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    the3rd and last Jacobite rebellion ...
    oops... hehe missed one there

    we should concentrate less on the conflict between the Highlanders, Lowlanders, Scotch Kings and Lords and more on the Auld Alliance versus the English
    agreed


    Scotlands role as a merc pool 4 powers like the HRE and Sweden
    and France (of course )

    if it is decided that we what to include Ireland into the game (which I think would be a good idea)
    I wouldn't go so far as to make a faction of the fragmented Irish lordships of the time, but it sure would be nice to have some merc and unique units to be recruited in Ireland (in an AOR system)... they would also come in handy for composing the rebel armies in Ireland

  10. #10

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    my advice as historian 4 Scotland then I would say for the purposes of the mod we should concentrate less on the conflict between the Highlanders, Lowlanders, Scotch Kings and Lords and more on the Auld Alliance versus the English and Scotlands role as a merc pool 4 powers like the HRE and Sweden (but thats a matter 4 a faction adding descussion)
    nice! You took the words out of my mouth.

    At the moment I'm quite happy with Scotlands position as a passive/aggressive faction (if that makes sense)
    it makes sense.

  11. #11
    deRougemont's Avatar Yeoman
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    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    Will there be a unique Scottish names list created for this mod? The CNP has developed a Gaelic Scottish names list, but it could use more names, if any of your Scotland history buffs could help...






  12. #12
    finneys13's Avatar *Insert Generic Title*
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    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    Just saw your name there deRougemont in a Scots thread, so having a look.

    I have been doing the name list for the Scots, but it is a Gaelic only list, good for the first 200 years or so of vanilla, a very different names list would be needed for a Renaissance mod.

    Of course, if anybody has ideas for the namelist, follow the link to CNP.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    as far as i no the scots use mainly anglicanized names

  14. #14
    finneys13's Avatar *Insert Generic Title*
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    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    Probably the best option for the 16th Century.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    [/quote]and France (of course )[/quote]

    Of course, how could I forget

    [/quote]I wouldn't go so far as to make a faction of the fragmented Irish lordships of the time, but it sure would be nice to have some merc and unique units to be recruited in Ireland (in an AOR system)... they would also come in handy for composing the rebel armies in Ireland[/quote]

    Agreed ... I think we need to set up a system of Irish rebel factions to reflect the volatility of the area, because the Irish, as we know, were real trouble-makers 4 the English

    Yes!, thats it!, Area of Recruitment, this I think should be the major issue with Scotland as it is a well known fact that during this time the Scots provided a huge amount of mercs for the European powers, including the English. I reckon it would be imperitive to set up a AOR system ... I know if I was playing as another faction I would conquer Scotland sheerly for its vicious troops ... well pointed out justme

    [/quote]Will there be a unique Scottish names list created for this mod[/quote]

    [/quote]as far as i no the scots use mainly anglicanized names[/quote]

    Your right again afrisco! This time ( 1499 - 1550s ) was what we could say as the transition period where the Highlanders became more influenced by Anglo-Lowland culture and as such began to pair up Gaelic ( such as 'Mac' which means 'son of' in Scots Gaelic) with more Anglisized versions of Gaelic names such as Donald. Convieniently enough I have here at home a Highland Clan map and list of Clan names and septs (sub clans) which is dated from around the same period as this mod ... how about that!
    However, I've been to sites better more comprehensive lists of Scottish Clan and Clan Sept names and thier variations ... I'll go find them again and refer them to the CNP ... let me tell you, they'll have thier work cut out 4 them cause theres literally thousands of names on file on some of those sites

    you know afrisco ur pretty consistant with ur knowledge of the Scots ... i'm beginning to like how u think

    anyway, keep the think-tank going

    ps: oh!, can anyone tell me if a solution to the ctd game crash error has been found becuse currently I can't play the Renaissance because it keeps crashing ... I really need help

    Edit: ah crap!, freakin html dont wonna work 4 me!
    Last edited by Hamish of Clan Dickson; April 18, 2007 at 02:39 AM.






  16. #16
    finneys13's Avatar *Insert Generic Title*
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    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    No great need, I used Gaelic names from up to 1200 for CNP, that clan map would be far too late. How a look at my list though.

    For the quote tag, do:

    [quoteX] Text being quoted [/quoteX]

    Of course omitting the Xs.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    you know afrisco ur pretty consistant with ur knowledge of the Scots ... i'm beginning to like how u think
    i like how you think! (i had to use a different smilie)

    i dont know aht else to talk about for the scots. i think we have their units,names,and foreign relations all done. it seems scotland will be a complete success!

  18. #18
    DrIstvaan's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    So... Get Scotland rolling. That is, at least with the campaign part. Let's do something while Agronak is under suspension!

    You may want to take a look at my small mod, Like Orange in Black Chocolate.
    Under the patronage of Silver Guard

  19. #19

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    So... Get Scotland rolling. That is, at least with the campaign part. Let's do something while Agronak is under suspension!
    i think we have their units,names,and foreign relations all done. it seems scotland will be a complete success!

    heh... campaign-wise, Scottish foreign relations are already in place in the latest beta I had posted a while ago (the auld alliance at least, plus I had tweaked a bit the likes/dislikes standings for all factions - including the Scots )

    I could do with a timeframe-appropriate names list for the Scots, even though I think that the vanilla list is ok for now. So if anyone (eg Hamish ) cares to compile the list, I'll be happy to integrate it in the campaign (just a note - keep first names and last names apart, don't mix them please)

    Units are a bit more complicated, since I need a list of new and changed units implemented in the modeldb AND a consolidated version of the EDU before I can insert them in the campaign (both in the EDB roster and the starting armies of Scotland).
    This means that:
    A) RTR Fan or somebody else with modelling/skinning abilities will have to create the units (based on a consolidated Scottish units list from Hamish or Afrisco)
    B) Serious Samurai will have to declare the units in his EDU (along with any fixes he'll need to add in - eg the pikefix)

  20. #20

    Default Re: Faction Thread: The Scots

    could do with a timeframe-appropriate names list for the Scots, even though I think that the vanilla list is ok for now. So if anyone (eg Hamish ) cares to compile the list, I'll be happy to integrate it in the campaign (just a note - keep first names and last names apart, don't mix them please)
    It shall be done ... Ive got multiple sources ... how many names do u need justme? ... Do you want me to post them on this thread or directly to ur inbox?

    RTR Fan or somebody else with modelling/skinning abilities will have to create the units (based on a consolidated Scottish units list from Hamish or Afrisco)
    This sounds like the best option ... luckly 4 us the military traditions of the clans hasnt all died out (i.e. ScotWars) so there are plenty of sources 4 ideas

    Edit: Sorry guys but I have to ask again: has that ctd game crash error been solved becuse I cant play the mod ... its driving me crazy!!
    Last edited by Hamish of Clan Dickson; April 19, 2007 at 01:51 AM.






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