Do we want to extend the end date past 1400?

[Ahiga]

After getting to like the guns in Vanilla, I've started to wonder if we couldn't, or shouldn't, just up the end date past 1400 to a later date. One advantage with the middle east over Europe is that generally things were a little bit slower, or a little less dramatic, in it's change. I've seen Indian armor from the 18th and possibly 19th century which features metal armor, and seen Iranian armors from the 19th century which seemed to include mail. Obviously we'd not go that far ahead, but what about up to 1453, the fall of Constantinople? Or even to maybe some time in the very early 1500s?

There's only one real reason that I'm suggesting it, and that's gunpowder units. http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm Tells us that gunpowder hand-weapons, more accurately hand cannons, existed since the 1300s in Europe. It may have a presence as early as 1281.

We also see that by 1400, it starts to steadily improve:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Technical improvements and new strategies meant that, by 1400, infantry armed with crossbow and handgonne could begin to challenge the supremacy of the mounted knight. Four main improvements turned the gun into a mobile and effective weapon:
i) the slow match, a cord dipped in saltpeter and dried which burned at a steady rate and which freed gunners from having to be close to a fire in order to operate,
ii) corned, or grained powder, which meant that powder did not have to be prepared immediately before use, thus speeding the rate of fire and preventing misfires, as well as making the powder more powerful and less hygroscopic,
iii) the serpentine, the most basic of firing mechanisms, which freed the gunner to take a proper aim instead of firing by volley (or guestimate),
iv) a pan on top of, or increasingly to the side of, the barrel, to take a larger quantity of priming without weakening the barrel wall.
From http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm

Take a look at this image, for instance. And I don't know what the deal is up with that guy's orange beard.



Both mameluke's are pretty much already in the game. Their helmets are, their mail and plate is. and the #2 guy is still using a bow. #1's arms on the ground are the same. #3 is a handgunner whose got mail on, along with his gun, which is pretty much the one from Vanilla. Now all three are from the 1510s, with it possible to fib that date to something a little sooner (I'd prefer to end at 1500, since I dunno what comes afterwards that would require it's extension).

That's egypt. The Turks as we know have a good reputation with firearms. Only problem is that from osprey, it says:

"Janissary regiments trained regularly and in the early days their weapons included bows, slings, crossbows and javelins. Some hand-guns were adopted during the wars against the Hungarians (1440-43), and more Janissaries were given firearms after the defeat by the Mamluks in Cilicia (1485-91), but not until the end of the 16th century did the majority have tufek matchlocks."

So we see that at least by 1440 were hand guns being used, and by at least 1485 would the Mamlukes probably have the arms that African gunner has.


As we look further for historical detail, the question of gameplay and appeal comes into mind. Would we want gunpowder infantry to play a role in later era warfare? Would it require very little work, likely just modeling a firearm in for certain infantry meshes, perhaps making one or two new ones?

Would it find a way to be acceptable for factions which were eliminated by this time? Egyptians used them, Turks would have, and I have read (Not in osprey) that the Afghans really took off with the gun (Giving them a distinct advantage against the horsemen that once forced them to take to the hills), so the Ghaznavids and Ghorids would be likely to adopt them. India too. But what about the Abbasids? Georgians? Armenians? Byzantines? KoJ?

[Miraj]

We could have multiple gunpowder dates for different types.

The end date is flexible. But most of the core factions were wiped out by the mongols. So 1400 is kind of stretching it as it is.
Edit: sorry thought i was in the rajput thread (im on a pda)

[Ahiga]

Well since handcannons seem to be in use in the 1300s, it might be fine to keep the date around 1400. As for the factions dying out, sadly that's an issue we'd face that the European mods wouldn't (Since with some exception, none of the kingdom's really disappeared). However, history is about changing things, so whether our key factions were there or weren't doesn't totally matter. The KoJ was wiped out in 1291, and Transoxanians/Ghaznavids even earlier (The latter might have ended as early as 1187, though lingering in Ghazni not as an empire but as a people), so even 1300 could be pushing it. Not to mention the dynasty change of Ayyubid-Mameluke.

However, upping it past 1400 (And I'd imagine the fall of Byzantium would pretty much be as far as we can go, except maybe a decade or two later) would need to be done for a reason. There's also the headache of plate armor, though we already see that with an end date of 1400 (And only the KoJ offer it, and well, it wouldn't be impossible they'd be a bit behind the times of European arms) It seems that handcannons are a legit feature to add, but matchlocks (Which the arquebusters/sudanese gunners use) seems to be an invention of around 1400 AD, or further on by a decade or two.

So we could:

A) Keep it at 1400. Feature handcannons and cannons, no arquebuster/matchlock
B) Extend from 1400 to somewhere between there and 1453, feature the matchlock.
C) Keep it at 1400, and be a little liberal with the dates the handcannon, cannon, and arquebust are used. Gameplay over accuracy, not forcing people to wait until practically the end of the game to use them.

[PartyElite]

option C) seems the best?

[Miraj]

Here's why I chose 1400:
1400 - 1175 = 225 yrs = 450 turns
Yes, I like nice numbers.

My suggestion is we just go crazy give everyone basically the same types of gp units after around 1300.

And we could extend the date to 1450 or more. Its not a big deal to me.

[Ahiga]

You both are right. Historical accuracy is kind of a buzz word nowadays, and while it's still valued and is still applied, the fact is people like what's fun and what looks cool. Historical canon is still important, but it's more taking an honest approach and strong inspiration from it, than having to be rigidly orthodox to it. Many didn't like Burrek's helmets, although they were accurate (And some had the audacity to tell him they weren't). So we can really just keep it at 1400 and give every faction gunpowder weaponry that would fit in that general period of 1300-1400s that we want, so long as it's got a strong semblance of history.

Let's keep it at 1400 and just tackle gunpowder last, maybe not in the first release.

I suppose I just wanted to field me some Nubian gunners with awesome red bushy hats.

[The Mongol]

I'd sacrifice historical accuracy for some fun gunpowder action.

I'd love to see those Nubians too Ahiga

[AlphaDelta]

Personally I'm against extending the ending date. 450 turns is enough time to complete the reasonable set of goals we will assign to each faction.

Hand gunners are completely crap in vanilla, they cant hit the broad side of a barn and I cant say I ever bothered to recruit any in the campaign. I found that with the vanilla campaign it was way too easy to get musketeers and such straight after gunpowder was invented. Also the best cannons can take down walls with a single shot, it's just not right.

Lets keep the goals tight, the focus narrow and work to the best of our abilities to meet the challenge. If we keep extending and expanding we'll never finish.

Cheers

[Miraj]

I agree, as for now this is not in our "to-do list". Scope.. it all about scope.. the difference between a failed modification and a successful one.

[iudas]

I agree with indian_boy. Option C is the best, especially because we aren't going to be history nerds with this mod.

P.S.: Arquebuster?

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I don't care honestly, since I wont ever play 450 turns on one campaign anyways. Since you can continue to play after the end date, I would give everyone some gunpowder weapons at 1400 and let people keep playing if they want to.

PS: I like your sig SirPaladin, as you can prob. tell

[Ahiga]

Well that seems fine. No gunpowder, at least with it limited only to cannons, helps keep the medieval and perhaps even keep the Middle Eastern feel. Including them tends to make you feel like the world is rushing towards the renaissance and losing it's medieval touch and theme. Though cannons and handcannons do fall under our period, from what you two said I assume they are a little frowned upon. That's alright, and perhaps when everything is done we can touch back on the issue and for now they will be omitted.

But the Bushy-hatted Nubians shall live on in our memories!

[CelticPagan]

I also agree with Indian_boy that choice C seems best to me.

[Lord LeRey]

Also the best cannons can take down walls with a single shot, it's just not right.

Cheers

Completely agree with you. While its fun and make it faster (bringing the latest levels of walls down with trebuchets and catapults is nearly impossible)...it makes me shudder to thing i will have to play as Byz (my fav faction always) and having to face all those crazy cannons and muskets and such.....with nothing like that on my side..firearms werenbt still that massively used back then..... Bombards shouldnt be that strong at that point of the game neither, i mean, even the one the turks had on the fall of constantinople wasnt able to bring down the wall (byz always repaired the damage done by the cannon...)

although im glad that thsi mod wont have aztecs...im latin and yet just keep wondering why? whtas their point? they should leaved them for the expansion....america is not medievalistic, its reinassance!

while its nice to finish the game in 1453 (symbolic date, if yo

[gaius valerius]

@ Ahiga (& everyone )

- gunpowder became indeed spread through the middle east from the 13th(mongols introducing it)/15th century(first handguns), but there is an important exception: the mamelukes NEVER deployed gunpowder units (at least gunners) on the field. while the ottomans were quick to adept the powerful weapon within their ranks (jannitsaries), the mameluke sultans never succeeded (cause they did try) in this, because the mamelukes themselves refused to fight with such dishonourable weapons. guns didn't soot the mameluk who still mainly relied on close combat with horses. this is one of the main reasons they went down against the ottomans.

historically its perfectly valable, since the mamluke sultanate only ceased to excist in 1517, so in fact they should have NO gunpowder units. the empire btw should normally have ceased to excist in 1412 but at that time nobody was around to deal them the finishing blow so they lived on another 100 years, nevertheless they were from then on a classic medieval state in what was becoming the modern age... kinda sad isn't it

[Beauchamp]

Ill speak for the Omani's: if gunpowder could be introduced, then it would allow them to bloom during the 1500's, seeing as they have little to no real good missile units during the 1300-1400 time period. They would have a great musketeer unit that they could get through the trade routes and an even stronger navy.

It would also be cool for the Mamluks and Yeni-Cheri of the Ottomans.

[gaius valerius]

to get back to the outdated attitude towards gunpowder the mamelukes had: when in the 15th century the portuguese suddenly started to threaten the mamluke sultanate from where they least expected it, being the south , the ottomans had to bail them out cause the mamelukes had no adequate navy (gunpowder!) to deal with it. the ottomans in the 15th century really became a real naval power, their capability of absorbing 'western' developments really made them surpass the mamelukes who were mentally still stuck in the classic medieval times

though i can understand that some ppl would like to see the mamelukes have gunpowder cause of the aspect 'fun', rather than see it being stripped because of the aspect 'history', i say the mamelukes should nevertheless have a clear disadvantage concerning gunpowder, perhaps only through merc's or whatever. historically seen they never succeeded in it so...

[Eraser]

It would be nice in my opinion to see some eastern gunpowder units but think that this should be addressed at a later stage in the production of ur mod after the initial release mayb

[Slaxx Hatmen]

to get back to the outdated attitude towards gunpowder the mamelukes had: when in the 15th century the portuguese suddenly started to threaten the mamluke sultanate from where they least expected it, being the south , the ottomans had to bail them out cause the mamelukes had no adequate navy (gunpowder!) to deal with it. the ottomans in the 15th century really became a real naval power, their capability of absorbing 'western' developments really made them surpass the mamelukes who were mentally still stuck in the classic medieval times

Ermmm....."Bail them out"? The Otttmans CONQUERED the Mamlukes! When the Portuguese cut off their spice monopoly in India, Selim I defeated the Mamluke forces and then marched on Cairo and established a "puppet" governer in the Mamlukes place. I wouldn't exactly call that "Bailing them out".

[gaius valerius]

the conquering happened in 1517, but shortly before the ottomans went in their and bailed them out against the portuguese showing up around yemen and such. cuz the mamelukes were to weak to deal with it themselves before 1517, sorry for not being specific enough.