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Thread: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

  1. #161

    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Anyway, enough of albanian fantasies. It was funny, but now some serious sources and problems.


    Demographic Explosion in Kosovo :

    Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1973, Vol 13, Page 479
    (quote):
    Kosovo-Metohija (Kosmet), an autonomous region of Serbia, Yugoslavia. Population (1961) 963,988, of whom the majority are Albanian-speaking Shqipetars.
    (End quote)

    Collier's Encyclopedia, Edition 1993, Vol 23, p 726
    (qoute):
    Kosovo, also known as Kosovo-Metohija..., an area on the south of the Republic of Serbia, southern Yugoslavia. Densely populated, Kosovo had 1,954,747 inhabitants in 1991.
    (end quote)

    We are talking here about THE HIGHEST BIRTH RATE IN EUROPE and one of the highest on Planet Earth. The population DOUBLED in thirty years. In other words it will be TENFOLD in a century!!!

    Interesting, just imagine illyrians with this birth rate! Probably entire world should populated with illrians by now
    Last edited by arthuros; April 14, 2007 at 05:16 PM.

  2. #162
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    grobar said that cro prepaired for the war for some time...
    wrong.. just look with what weapons did cro fight in 1991

    an aromred tatra truck wtf??

    and aven more scary ... an armored traktor.... (images from "Museum of homeland war" in Turanj)
    if you have any knowledge you will see that these are a desperate inprovisations

    and serbs had m-84 tanks, bvp apc-s, dora howitzers...

    this are films of actual combat and i must warn you there are allso dead bodies shown,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1MedaSZDsc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jow7ZwskYDo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP8w92_bL4w

    croats did not have tanks (except a few captured) in 1991, not a single plane, no heavy artillery. look at the camo olive-green in yna camo and used by serbian forces, uniforms that serb use are allso yna. in fact regular yna units were involved in the sige of vukovar. you will not find a single photo of cro tank in the battle of vukovar, because there wasnt any.

    so who attacked who? was stjepan mesic, a cro on the position of president of presidency of yugoslavia in control of yna forces? he ordered them to stop their attack they didnt listen to him, why? who was in command of yna then?
    try to answer on these questions

  3. #163

    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by arthuros View Post
    Anyway, enough of albanian fantasies. It was funny, but now some serious sources and problems.


    Demographic Explosion in Kosovo :

    Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1973, Vol 13, Page 479
    (quote):
    Kosovo-Metohija (Kosmet), an autonomous region of Serbia, Yugoslavia. Population (1961) 963,988, of whom the majority are Albanian-speaking Shqipetars.
    (End quote)

    Collier's Encyclopedia, Edition 1993, Vol 23, p 726
    (qoute):
    Kosovo, also known as Kosovo-Metohija..., an area on the south of the Republic of Serbia, southern Yugoslavia. Densely populated, Kosovo had 1,954,747 inhabitants in 1991.
    (end quote)

    We are talking here about THE HIGHEST BIRTH RATE IN EUROPE and one of the highest on Planet Earth. The population DOUBLED in thirty years. In other words it will be TENFOLD in a century!!!

    Interesting, just imagine illyrians with this birth rate! Probably entire world should populated with illrians by now
    Hmmm so for that you needed to make a genocide for ? NAUGHTY NAUGHTY

  4. #164
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    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Leopoldk said;
    So, in one single thread you went from stating that Croatia was totally unprepared for the coming war to admitting that weapons were being smuggled in. Why should the Croats covertly import weapons unless they planned to wage a secession war?


    what i tried to say is that even if there was smuggling it could be only for defensive purposes..
    unlike many on this thred i can not say for sure what happened because I am not prepared to make empty comments based on who knows whose version of the truth..
    maybe there was smuggling and maybe there wasn't, but in any case it could be only for defencive purpose..
    but the fact is that croatian army had no real weapons to face JNA, even less to attack serbia. see what matko posted..
    and I was wondering where matko was..

  5. #165

    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by Magik View Post
    Hmmm so for that you needed to make a genocide for ?
    Yup, its real 'genocide' with more albanians after than before it
    And you didnt say anything about illyrians this time? No more quotes from wiki?

    But Madik & co i've answered your question, but still no answer from you. Guess ill have to repeat my question (or you just cant find that answer in wiki, probably because it doesnt exist):

    Quote Originally Posted by arthuros
    "When was KosovO Serbian?"
    Lets see, how about always
    There was no Kosovo before Serbs, and there were no Serbs before Kosovo. From time we come in Balkans, Kosovo WAS AND STILL IS OURS.

    i'll show you some simple map (its CIA factbook maps, not serbian):


    So you see?

    And when Kosovo was albanian???
    And?

  6. #166
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    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by arthuros View Post
    Anyway, enough of albanian fantasies. It was funny, but now some serious sources and problems.


    Demographic Explosion in Kosovo :

    Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1973, Vol 13, Page 479
    (quote):
    Kosovo-Metohija (Kosmet), an autonomous region of Serbia, Yugoslavia. Population (1961) 963,988, of whom the majority are Albanian-speaking Shqipetars.
    (End quote)

    Collier's Encyclopedia, Edition 1993, Vol 23, p 726
    (qoute):
    Kosovo, also known as Kosovo-Metohija..., an area on the south of the Republic of Serbia, southern Yugoslavia. Densely populated, Kosovo had 1,954,747 inhabitants in 1991.
    (end quote)

    We are talking here about THE HIGHEST BIRTH RATE IN EUROPE and one of the highest on Planet Earth. The population DOUBLED in thirty years. In other words it will be TENFOLD in a century!!!

    Interesting, just imagine illyrians with this birth rate! Probably entire world should populated with illrians by now
    Actually it's 20 years. And what's your point? Underdeveloped countries tend to have a higher birthrate.

    what i tried to say is that even if there was smuggling it could be only for defensive purposes..
    unlike many on this thred i can not say for sure what happened because I am not prepared to make empty comments based on who knows whose version of the truth..
    maybe there was smuggling and maybe there wasn't, but in any case it could be only for defencive purpose..
    but the fact is that croatian army had no real weapons to face JNA, even less to attack serbia. see what matko posted..
    and I was wondering where matko was..
    I thought this was common knowlidge. And i don't see what's wrong with it. If Croatia foresaw that there wouldn't be a peaceful break-up, why not army yourself?

    EDIT: ****, been gone for 1 freakin' day and already can't follow what's going on...

  7. #167
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    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Macedonian people has a holy, moral and national obligation to praise, glorify and honour its national tribune, statesman and hero, the duke Georgija Kastriot - Iskender

    WHO WAS GEORGIJA KASTRIOT - SKENDERBEG (ISKENDER)?

    Written by Petar Popovski

    Georgija was not an Arnaut, but a thoroughbred Mijak. He had never been
    Skender or a bey. In the old written sources he is mentioned only by the title the Duke of the Mijaks, that is the Duke of Arvatia and the Duke of Epirus. The noun supplement Skenderbeg is a pure forgery. His real noun supplement is Iskender, which according to the eastern tradition means Alexander. He was named Iskender after the severe battle with the Turks in 1455 when with his fellow tribesmen - the Mijaks; he captured the town Belgrade (now Berat) from the Turks. Then the sultan Mohammed II who participated in that battle called him "The Second hero Alexander The Great", that is "the second Alexander the Great". He was given the name for the heroism and bravery he proved as well as for the extraordinary strategy and tactics he used in the battle. Not without reason, because his armies were not composed of Arnauts (Gego-Mirdits) as some quasi-historians are trying to prove, but of Macedonians, his fellow tribesmen-
    the Miaks.

    ___________________________

    Recently, in the commission for culture in the Assembly of the Republic
    of Macedonia, at the debate for celebrating holidays referring the history of the Macedonian people, the members of the Parliament of the so called Albanian block suggested to insert the anniversary of Georgija Kastriot-Skenderbeg (1405-1468) on the schedule for celebrating significant dates and events. This suggestion was not supported and was rejected by the members-Macedonians.

    But if one had had a good knowledge of the history, in this actual case,
    the name, life and deed of Georgija Kastriot, this suggestion should have been accepted. Maybe, this opinion would have negative sense, however if we take into consideration the historical exactitude, historical facts and written testimonies, the Macedonian people has a moral, namely national obligation to celebrate and glorify his name. In fact, Georgija Kastriot was not a Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) great man, as presented by the gego-albanian science and some uninformed western quasi-historians, but thoroughbred Miak, of Macedonian-Miak origin, or Macedonian hero and duke as called in history. It is scientifically confirmed and proved. If Georgija Kastriot knew that one day he would be proclaimed as Gego-Mirdit, that is Arnaut, he would turn over in his grave. History teaches us that a people without its own history, historical events and persons, encroach on other people's ones in order to become people in the true sense of the word. It is a common characteristic for the Balkan people.

    Besides the Greeks and the Bulgarians, the Arnauts(today sqip-albanians) as well encroached on the Macedonian people - it is a people's tribal group, known in science, as "wild gang of people the world had never born". In this context it is sufficient to present only the statement of the sultan Selim (1789-1807) from 1795 and to see what kind of people it was. Actually, he wrote:" it is a gang of people gifted with wild and violent character who even in their mother's womb is imbued with bad intentions to make brutal murderers of peaceful people as well as thefts and disorders". And not without reason the Turks called them Arnauts, which literally means evil people, criminals. Therefore it is illusory to think that such a people, of whom the worst is written, would give birth to such a national tribune and a great man.

    Another explanation: here we are not speaking of the Shgipetars that is the Tosks we should respect and honour as a people's group
    characterized by strong moral qualities but of their supposed comrades
    Gego-Mirdits, who now under the protection of the USA, NATO and the European Union, mistreat the so called Slavic peoples in the Balkans.
    The Macedonian people have already become immune to encroachment on its history and maybe because of that it does not react to these and similar situations. But to tell the truth, Georgija Kastriot was neither Mirdit (Geg) nor Shgipetar (Tosk), but born Mijak-Macedonian. And the reason that "the Albanian science" glorifies him as its hero is because, above all, except with famous bandits, murderers, killers and criminals-monsters, it does not have its own historical person to praise with to the world. Its "scientists", if can be so called at all, including the "Macedonian Albanian"- the quasi-historian Nevzet Bejta, do not know very well the history of their native country, even less the history of the person Georgija Kastriot. And history, fortunately, tells everything - who is who and to which people one belongs.
    ____________________________________________________________
    In order not to be misled, we shall briefly describe the personality of
    Georgija, of course, based on relevant historical sources. The family (descent) Kastriot, whose descendant is Georgija Kastriot, originates from the Mijak tribal group Kastrates. Today there are two assumptions for his birthplace. By ones, Georgija was born in the village Simona, north of the town Kroja (now Kruja), by others in the village Rostusha, Debar region. The Kastriot family was famous even in the first half of the XIV century when his grandfather Konstantin Kastriot became a head of the Macedonian (Miak) population in the region of Matka (now Mat) and Mala Les (now Malesia, that is Male Zi), Northern Albania. Formerly Konstantin was one of the greatest salt traders with Dubrovnik. After his death his son Ivan, who accepting the vassalage of the Turks succeeded to protect that part of today Albania from the Ottoman slavery, inherited him. Ivan's father left more written documents testifying about the Macedonian (Mijak) character of the Kastriot descent. On this occasion we shall cite only a part of the charter written by the hand of Ivan to the Monastery of Hilendar, on Sveta Gora, from 1426.

    In this document, written in Old Church Slavic language
    the following is written.

    "According to the unspeakable mercy of my ruler Christ, I, sinful and
    unworthy, must not be mistaken to my Jesus Christ, Ivan Kastriot and my sons Stanisha and Riposha and Konstantin and Georgij. have contributed to the Holy monastery great Prechista of the ruler Lavri of Hilendar and I contributed the village Rodostushe and the church St.Prechista Bogorodica, also in that village Rodostushe and the village Trebishte.

    The writing is confirmed with a seal with the name of Ivan Kastriot,
    written in Cyrillic alphabet (See documents in: St.Novakovich, Legal
    monuments./fifth book, pg. 467).

    From the correspondence with the Dubrovnik Republic, having political,
    military and trade relations, three letters have been saved written also in
    Cyrillic alphabet. His Macedonian-Christian spirit and character is clearly seen from the letters. This spirit is mostly expressed in the letter from 25 February 1420, sent to the landowner Petar from Dubrovnik, which says:

    "My faith in Christ as well as the faith of my sons Reposh, Stanislav,
    Konstantin and Georgija. My Gjorgjian country, extending from Konjuh (now Elbasan) to Prizren, is maintained and cultivated by me, Mr. Ivan and my sons."

    As it can be seen here, Ivan Kastriot calls his landowner's territory "Gjorgjian", that is "Gjorgjian land", after the name of his grand-grandfather Gjorgjia, he had inherited it from. These records deny all theses, lies, forgeries and speculations for the supposed Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) that is Albanian character of the Kastriot family.
    A testimony for the Macedonian (Mijak) origin of Georgija is the
    personal names in the descent of the Kastriot family. Namely, in this Macedonian ancient family we meet the most archaic and most characteristic Slavic biblical names like: Branislav, Pavle, Nikola, Gjorgjija, Konstantin - all ancestors of Georgjija. His parents, his father Ivan and his mother Voislava, had four sons - Reposh, Stanislav, Konstantin and Georgija and five daughters - Radislava,
    Marija, Vlajka, Angelina and Mamica. Georgija's sons were named after their ancestors: Ivan and Pavle, which is a common characteristic of the Mijak descendants. None of the names here can be identified with the Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) element.

    A testimony for the Macedonian character of this family, above all, are the ancient so called Slavic noun suffixes - Slav and slava, like
    in the names Brani(slav), Stani(slav), Rado(slava) and Voi(slava) identifying their Macedonian (Slavic) origin. (Compare to: F.Barishik, and the origin of the Slavics.CXLII).

    Such characteristic Macedonian (Slavic) names before Ivan and
    Georgija, within their time and after, had all other landowners in the areas of today Albania, which was completely understandable, because the Mijak element since ancient times populated the whole territory of today Albania. (See documentary with: Mussachi, Lejean, Karl Hort, Arni Boue, Seiner, Hahn, MacCenzi, Irby, Pankville, Treimer etc.etc.). Georgija had never called himself Gjergj. We do not meet him under such name in no written document. Neither in the narrative nor in the epigraphic. And that the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) call him by such name is an unbelievable historical forgery.

    Some historians, with little knowledge of the history of Albania and the
    genesis of the Shgipetars (Tosks) and the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), today- the Albanians, make a big mistake naming Georgija with the noun supplement-Skenderbeg. He had never been Skender or Bey! In the authentic historical sources we met him only and solely with the title Macedonian (Mijak) duke, that is the Duke of Arvatia and the Duke of Epirus. (Compare with same sources).

    The noun supplement Skenderbeg is a pure historical forgery. His real noun supplement is Iskender, which according to the eastern tradition means Alexander. Since the Arnautian "scientists" do not read the history, let us say why Georgija got the noun supplement Iskender (Alexander)? As it is known, in the period of 1448-1468, Georgija waged a few fierce battles with the Turks, not allowing them to conquer his native country-Arvatia, named so after the ancient Macedonian (Slavic) tribal group Arv'n. He got the noun supplement Iskender in 1455 when with his fellow tribesmen- the Mijaks, captured for the second time the town Belgrade (now Berat) from the Turks. It was named so from the sultan Mohammed II personally (1451-1481) who took part in the battle he, excited by what he had seen and experienced. (Compare with: Paganel, Bajron, Marinus
    Barletius). Because of the heroism, bravery and the military tactics he used in that battle, the Turks called him "The second hero Alexander the Great", that is "the Second Alexander the Great". (See with: Bajron, Paganel and Baletius).

    Not accidentally, because the armies of Georgija were not composed of Arnauts, as some writers and quasi-historians are trying to distort and forge the history, but of native Macedonian (Mijak) population. Namely at his time, at the time of Georgija, the Gego-Mirdits (Arnaurs) were not present in those areas. The Turks brought them even after about more than hundred years, after 1570 from the district Antalia in Turkey, with a purpose to protect its northern border with one-religion Muslim population. It is an unbeatable historical fact.

    It is recommended to the "historian" Bejta and all other "scientists" not to deal with various lies but to look over the official censual documents of XIV, XV and XVI century (The Skadar Katastich of 1416 and the Turkish censual books of the XV and XVI century) to see that at that historical period they did not exist in the areas of today Albania. Even if one would accept the assumption that the Gegs (the Arnauts) were in the Arvanite areas, there was no reason for them to rebel against the Turks, since from their coming in the Balkan regions they were the most privileged ethnic group as well as collaborators in the government, keeping
    the Macedonian element obedient by terror and violence.

    The best expert in the life and revolutionary deed of Georgija Kastriot,
    the Skadar priest-humanist Marinus Barletius, whose study about Georgija was published in 1493, only 26 years after his death, had never used the term Albanians and the country Albania for the population in then Arvania, but Macedonian that is Macedonia (See: Marinus Barletius, Historia de vita.pg. 22, 23, 27, 31, 68, 136, 157, 241, 259, 301, 331, 334, 337 and so on).

    Only at some places we meet the term Tribal, which also means Macedonian (Slavic) population. This record testifies that at the time of Georgija Kastriot the term Albania was unknown as well as the term Albanians, not only in this part of the Balkans but in the entire civilized Europe.

    Albania got its name later by the strangers- Anglo Saxons who gave the name Albania to all mountainous regions in Europe. (British Albanian, Belgian Albanian, Avstrian Albanian, that is Alpian etc.) which by the Celtic forms Alb, Alp, that is Albanik, means Mountain (See documentary and wider with: Leon Dominian's, Friunters of Language.192).

    So mistaken are all today Albanians who think that the name Albania has some national ethnical or people's meaning. Namely the name Albania is a simple geographical notion. If this historical record is unknown to the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), then it is to be known that their real name is-Mountaineers and not some exalted forms and fixed idea, the artificially
    imposed name Albania i. e Albanians looking at them as if some national omen not knowing its real etymological meaning. So, not accidentally, their supposed comrades - Shgipetars (Tosks), categorically deny that name, keeping its ancient national people's name. - Shipnija. I. e. Shiptar, so that the Gego-Mirdits (the Arnauts) looked at it irreconcilable and with contempt.

    In order to count all arguments, which reject, as groundless, the romantic thesis of the Gego-Mirdits for the supposed Arnautian origin of Georgija we shall need much more space.

    First and basic is that all scientists without exception, who wrote about Georgija, more than 220 studies have been written so far, state and prove with arguments that he had "Slavic" and only "Slavic" i. e. Macedonian - Mijak origin.

    Second, so far the Mijaks have written over 3200 strophes for Georgija,
    his bravery and heroism, out of which 17 epic songs and ballads. A part of those songs praise the Kastriot family, his wife Maria Andronika, better known as Banovica for whom a special ballad was written, as well as the state wisdom and capability of the Duke Georgija.

    And the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) did not write any song for "their hero"! No need of any further comment about this.

    Third, Georgija was not a Muslim but a faithful Orthodox Christian. He was born and died in a Mijak Orthodox Christian family, evidence are the charters of his father Ivan for the Hilendar monastery. In 1431 his elder brother Reposh was buried in the Hilendar monastery, evidence is the inscription in Old Church Slavic in the narthex of the Hilendar Cathedral with his name and year of his death. This is a sufficiently convincing record about the Kastriot family ties with this ancient Macedonian religious center.

    Fourth, in the fierce battles with the Turks, Georgija was not fighting under the flag of "the Eagles", as the Arnautian "scientists" and quasi-historians of Bejta type like to say, but under the Mijak holy flag known as "A flag with a cross", with the symbol of ancient Macedonia on a red field-the Lion! According to a legend in the villages Gorno Melnichani and Pareshe there were about 14 houses of descendants of Georgija' sons, Ivan and Pavle, who kept close family relations with their relatives in the village Simona and in the town Kroja and they visited each other.

    All of them" under the pressure of the wild Gegi bandits" during the Balkan wars migrated in Sophia, Salonika and Constantinople. (Kosta Zunguloski, Chronicle notes.2

    The name of Kastriot Georgija is related to another very significant
    event for the history of the Macedonian people.

    Namely, after his death in 1468, over 200.000 Macedonians, members of the Mijak ethnic group, fearing possible revenge from the Turks, through the Rodon Gulf, at the town Leska (now Lesh), migrated, a part of them in Dalmatia and in the Venice Republic and a part in South Italy in the districts - Apulia, Calabria and Sicilia. The native Italian population called the Prishels from Arvania- Galabardnos, that is Golobrdjans (in dialect Golobrzdans), which was understandable, because a great part of those migrators originated from the district Golo Brdo, then from the bottom of the mountain Mokra and the region Chermenika, all of them in now Central Albania. (See with: K.Treimer.Lingvistisch-kultur-historische.447).

    Before the end of the XIV century, in those districts, the new immigrated Macedonian population formed its own Orthodox Church municipalities and already at the beginning of the XVI century, in the heart of the Catholic Church the Macedonian orthodox eparchy was formed, known as "Italian orthodox eparchy", its first archbishop was the metropolitan Timotej. Almost three centuries that eparchy was under the Ohrid Archbishopric-Patriarchy at the time when it was the biggest church in the Christian world. Its diocese, consisted of 32 eparchies, extended from Sicilia on the west to Ukraine on the east. (See documentary, chronologically and wider with: I.S.Palamov], New documents.1-31, with: E.E. Golubinskiq, Kratkiq ocherk].120-139 and with Ier.Arseniq, Destiny of the Orthodox Church.80-91).

    In order to count all merits by which the duke Georgija Kastriot
    obligated Macedonia and the Macedonian nation we shall need much wider space. But the above said is enough to see who was Georgija Kastriot and how great was his real historical role, dimension and significance.

    So, based on the presented documents and evidences it can be said that the Macedonian people has holy, moral and national obligation to praise, glorify and honour his national tribune Georgija, not as arnautian Gjergj Kastrioti - Skenderbeg, since such person did not existed, but as Macedonian Georgija Kastriot - Iskender, who as original historical person, existed in a complex historical period in areas which at his time were a constituent part of Macedonia, inhabited by Macedonian native population. From there is our obligation to Georgija as to a person who is Macedonian national pride and glory!
    Last edited by Maced0n; April 14, 2007 at 06:37 PM.

  8. #168
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    some serbian propaganda, but they are caught lying:
    situation- year 1991 the sige of dubrovnik. yna and serbaina nad montengrian forces are encircle dubrovnik and deployed heavy artillery. croatian forces are only in possesion of lighter weapons nad are defending the city.

    you will need knowledge of one of southslavic languages to understand this, no subtitles.
    they (serbs) are saying that croatians themselves destroyed the city in the faction fighting between cro militias. and the black smoke is from burning tyres
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbdYZovA5fE
    and what really happened
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU0JPXUmg44
    as you can see dubrovnik was shelled by serbian heavy artillery.

  9. #169

    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by xxax View Post
    Actually it's 20 years. And what's your point? Underdeveloped countries tend to have a higher birthrate.
    ...
    Not really, from 1961 to 1991, but quotes are from editions of '73 and '93

    Whats my point? "Underdeveloped country" in the middle of Europe, with huge economic investments from entire former Yugoslavia?

    Well, my point is (if u cant see this by yourself) that is something wrong when a one ethnic community doubled its population in a very short period, and all others declined by half? Maybe it shows exact nature of albanian policy towards Kosovo and not just Kosovo, but MAcedonia, Montenegro and Greece also.
    Last edited by arthuros; April 14, 2007 at 06:34 PM.

  10. #170

    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by Maced0n View Post
    Macedonian people has a holy, moral and national obligation to praise, glorify and honour its national tribune, statesman and hero, the duke Georgija Kastriot - Iskender

    WHO WAS GEORGIJA KASTRIOT - SKENDERBEG (ISKENDER)?

    Written by Petar Popovski

    Georgija was not an Arnaut, but a thoroughbred Mijak. He had never been
    Skender or a bey. In the old written sources he is mentioned only by the title the Duke of the Mijaks, that is the Duke of Arvatia and the Duke of Epirus. The noun supplement Skenderbeg is a pure forgery. His real noun supplement is Iskender, which according to the eastern tradition means Alexander. He was named Iskender after the severe battle with the Turks in 1455 when with his fellow tribesmen - the Mijaks; he captured the town Belgrade (now Berat) from the Turks. Then the sultan Mohammed II who participated in that battle called him "The Second hero Alexander The Great", that is "the second Alexander the Great". He was given the name for the heroism and bravery he proved as well as for the extraordinary strategy and tactics he used in the battle. Not without reason, because his armies were not composed of Arnauts (Gego-Mirdits) as some quasi-historians are trying to prove, but of Macedonians, his fellow tribesmen-
    the Miaks.

    ___________________________

    Recently, in the commission for culture in the Assembly of the Republic
    of Macedonia, at the debate for celebrating holidays referring the history of the Macedonian people, the members of the Parliament of the so called Albanian block suggested to insert the anniversary of Georgija Kastriot-Skenderbeg (1405-1468) on the schedule for celebrating significant dates and events. This suggestion was not supported and was rejected by the members-Macedonians.

    But if one had had a good knowledge of the history, in this actual case,
    the name, life and deed of Georgija Kastriot, this suggestion should have been accepted. Maybe, this opinion would have negative sense, however if we take into consideration the historical exactitude, historical facts and written testimonies, the Macedonian people has a moral, namely national obligation to celebrate and glorify his name. In fact, Georgija Kastriot was not a Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) great man, as presented by the gego-albanian science and some uninformed western quasi-historians, but thoroughbred Miak, of Macedonian-Miak origin, or Macedonian hero and duke as called in history. It is scientifically confirmed and proved. If Georgija Kastriot knew that one day he would be proclaimed as Gego-Mirdit, that is Arnaut, he would turn over in his grave. History teaches us that a people without its own history, historical events and persons, encroach on other people's ones in order to become people in the true sense of the word. It is a common characteristic for the Balkan people.

    Besides the Greeks and the Bulgarians, the Arnauts(today sqip-albanians) as well encroached on the Macedonian people - it is a people's tribal group, known in science, as "wild gang of people the world had never born". In this context it is sufficient to present only the statement of the sultan Selim (1789-1807) from 1795 and to see what kind of people it was. Actually, he wrote:" it is a gang of people gifted with wild and violent character who even in their mother's womb is imbued with bad intentions to make brutal murderers of peaceful people as well as thefts and disorders". And not without reason the Turks called them Arnauts, which literally means evil people, criminals. Therefore it is illusory to think that such a people, of whom the worst is written, would give birth to such a national tribune and a great man.

    Another explanation: here we are not speaking of the Shgipetars that is the Tosks we should respect and honour as a people's group
    characterized by strong moral qualities but of their supposed comrades
    Gego-Mirdits, who now under the protection of the USA, NATO and the European Union, mistreat the so called Slavic peoples in the Balkans.
    The Macedonian people have already become immune to encroachment on its history and maybe because of that it does not react to these and similar situations. But to tell the truth, Georgija Kastriot was neither Mirdit (Geg) nor Shgipetar (Tosk), but born Mijak-Macedonian. And the reason that "the Albanian science" glorifies him as its hero is because, above all, except with famous bandits, murderers, killers and criminals-monsters, it does not have its own historical person to praise with to the world. Its "scientists", if can be so called at all, including the "Macedonian Albanian"- the quasi-historian Nevzet Bejta, do not know very well the history of their native country, even less the history of the person Georgija Kastriot. And history, fortunately, tells everything - who is who and to which people one belongs.
    ____________________________________________________________
    In order not to be misled, we shall briefly describe the personality of
    Georgija, of course, based on relevant historical sources. The family (descent) Kastriot, whose descendant is Georgija Kastriot, originates from the Mijak tribal group Kastrates. Today there are two assumptions for his birthplace. By ones, Georgija was born in the village Simona, north of the town Kroja (now Kruja), by others in the village Rostusha, Debar region. The Kastriot family was famous even in the first half of the XIV century when his grandfather Konstantin Kastriot became a head of the Macedonian (Miak) population in the region of Matka (now Mat) and Mala Les (now Malesia, that is Male Zi), Northern Albania. Formerly Konstantin was one of the greatest salt traders with Dubrovnik. After his death his son Ivan, who accepting the vassalage of the Turks succeeded to protect that part of today Albania from the Ottoman slavery, inherited him. Ivan's father left more written documents testifying about the Macedonian (Mijak) character of the Kastriot descent. On this occasion we shall cite only a part of the charter written by the hand of Ivan to the Monastery of Hilendar, on Sveta Gora, from 1426.

    In this document, written in Old Church Slavic language
    the following is written.

    "According to the unspeakable mercy of my ruler Christ, I, sinful and
    unworthy, must not be mistaken to my Jesus Christ, Ivan Kastriot and my sons Stanisha and Riposha and Konstantin and Georgij. have contributed to the Holy monastery great Prechista of the ruler Lavri of Hilendar and I contributed the village Rodostushe and the church St.Prechista Bogorodica, also in that village Rodostushe and the village Trebishte.

    The writing is confirmed with a seal with the name of Ivan Kastriot,
    written in Cyrillic alphabet (See documents in: St.Novakovich, Legal
    monuments./fifth book, pg. 467).

    From the correspondence with the Dubrovnik Republic, having political,
    military and trade relations, three letters have been saved written also in
    Cyrillic alphabet. His Macedonian-Christian spirit and character is clearly seen from the letters. This spirit is mostly expressed in the letter from 25 February 1420, sent to the landowner Petar from Dubrovnik, which says:

    "My faith in Christ as well as the faith of my sons Reposh, Stanislav,
    Konstantin and Georgija. My Gjorgjian country, extending from Konjuh (now Elbasan) to Prizren, is maintained and cultivated by me, Mr. Ivan and my sons."

    As it can be seen here, Ivan Kastriot calls his landowner's territory "Gjorgjian", that is "Gjorgjian land", after the name of his grand-grandfather Gjorgjia, he had inherited it from. These records deny all theses, lies, forgeries and speculations for the supposed Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) that is Albanian character of the Kastriot family.
    A testimony for the Macedonian (Mijak) origin of Georgija is the
    personal names in the descent of the Kastriot family. Namely, in this Macedonian ancient family we meet the most archaic and most characteristic Slavic biblical names like: Branislav, Pavle, Nikola, Gjorgjija, Konstantin - all ancestors of Georgjija. His parents, his father Ivan and his mother Voislava, had four sons - Reposh, Stanislav, Konstantin and Georgija and five daughters - Radislava,
    Marija, Vlajka, Angelina and Mamica. Georgija's sons were named after their ancestors: Ivan and Pavle, which is a common characteristic of the Mijak descendants. None of the names here can be identified with the Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) element.

    A testimony for the Macedonian character of this family, above all, are the ancient so called Slavic noun suffixes - Slav and slava, like
    in the names Brani(slav), Stani(slav), Rado(slava) and Voi(slava) identifying their Macedonian (Slavic) origin. (Compare to: F.Barishik, and the origin of the Slavics.CXLII).

    Such characteristic Macedonian (Slavic) names before Ivan and
    Georgija, within their time and after, had all other landowners in the areas of today Albania, which was completely understandable, because the Mijak element since ancient times populated the whole territory of today Albania. (See documentary with: Mussachi, Lejean, Karl Hort, Arni Boue, Seiner, Hahn, MacCenzi, Irby, Pankville, Treimer etc.etc.). Georgija had never called himself Gjergj. We do not meet him under such name in no written document. Neither in the narrative nor in the epigraphic. And that the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) call him by such name is an unbelievable historical forgery.

    Some historians, with little knowledge of the history of Albania and the
    genesis of the Shgipetars (Tosks) and the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), today- the Albanians, make a big mistake naming Georgija with the noun supplement-Skenderbeg. He had never been Skender or Bey! In the authentic historical sources we met him only and solely with the title Macedonian (Mijak) duke, that is the Duke of Arvatia and the Duke of Epirus. (Compare with same sources).

    The noun supplement Skenderbeg is a pure historical forgery. His real noun supplement is Iskender, which according to the eastern tradition means Alexander. Since the Arnautian "scientists" do not read the history, let us say why Georgija got the noun supplement Iskender (Alexander)? As it is known, in the period of 1448-1468, Georgija waged a few fierce battles with the Turks, not allowing them to conquer his native country-Arvatia, named so after the ancient Macedonian (Slavic) tribal group Arv'n. He got the noun supplement Iskender in 1455 when with his fellow tribesmen- the Mijaks, captured for the second time the town Belgrade (now Berat) from the Turks. It was named so from the sultan Mohammed II personally (1451-1481) who took part in the battle he, excited by what he had seen and experienced. (Compare with: Paganel, Bajron, Marinus
    Barletius). Because of the heroism, bravery and the military tactics he used in that battle, the Turks called him "The second hero Alexander the Great", that is "the Second Alexander the Great". (See with: Bajron, Paganel and Baletius).

    Not accidentally, because the armies of Georgija were not composed of Arnauts, as some writers and quasi-historians are trying to distort and forge the history, but of native Macedonian (Mijak) population. Namely at his time, at the time of Georgija, the Gego-Mirdits (Arnaurs) were not present in those areas. The Turks brought them even after about more than hundred years, after 1570 from the district Antalia in Turkey, with a purpose to protect its northern border with one-religion Muslim population. It is an unbeatable historical fact.

    It is recommended to the "historian" Bejta and all other "scientists" not to deal with various lies but to look over the official censual documents of XIV, XV and XVI century (The Skadar Katastich of 1416 and the Turkish censual books of the XV and XVI century) to see that at that historical period they did not exist in the areas of today Albania. Even if one would accept the assumption that the Gegs (the Arnauts) were in the Arvanite areas, there was no reason for them to rebel against the Turks, since from their coming in the Balkan regions they were the most privileged ethnic group as well as collaborators in the government, keeping
    the Macedonian element obedient by terror and violence.

    The best expert in the life and revolutionary deed of Georgija Kastriot,
    the Skadar priest-humanist Marinus Barletius, whose study about Georgija was published in 1493, only 26 years after his death, had never used the term Albanians and the country Albania for the population in then Arvania, but Macedonian that is Macedonia (See: Marinus Barletius, Historia de vita.pg. 22, 23, 27, 31, 68, 136, 157, 241, 259, 301, 331, 334, 337 and so on).

    Only at some places we meet the term Tribal, which also means Macedonian (Slavic) population. This record testifies that at the time of Georgija Kastriot the term Albania was unknown as well as the term Albanians, not only in this part of the Balkans but in the entire civilized Europe.

    Albania got its name later by the strangers- Anglo Saxons who gave the name Albania to all mountainous regions in Europe. (British Albanian, Belgian Albanian, Avstrian Albanian, that is Alpian etc.) which by the Celtic forms Alb, Alp, that is Albanik, means Mountain (See documentary and wider with: Leon Dominian's, Friunters of Language.192).

    So mistaken are all today Albanians who think that the name Albania has some national ethnical or people's meaning. Namely the name Albania is a simple geographical notion. If this historical record is unknown to the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), then it is to be known that their real name is-Mountaineers and not some exalted forms and fixed idea, the artificially
    imposed name Albania i. e Albanians looking at them as if some national omen not knowing its real etymological meaning. So, not accidentally, their supposed comrades - Shgipetars (Tosks), categorically deny that name, keeping its ancient national people's name. - Shipnija. I. e. Shiptar, so that the Gego-Mirdits (the Arnauts) looked at it irreconcilable and with contempt.

    In order to count all arguments, which reject, as groundless, the romantic thesis of the Gego-Mirdits for the supposed Arnautian origin of Georgija we shall need much more space.

    First and basic is that all scientists without exception, who wrote about Georgija, more than 220 studies have been written so far, state and prove with arguments that he had "Slavic" and only "Slavic" i. e. Macedonian - Mijak origin.

    Second, so far the Mijaks have written over 3200 strophes for Georgija,
    his bravery and heroism, out of which 17 epic songs and ballads. A part of those songs praise the Kastriot family, his wife Maria Andronika, better known as Banovica for whom a special ballad was written, as well as the state wisdom and capability of the Duke Georgija.

    And the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) did not write any song for "their hero"! No need of any further comment about this.

    Third, Georgija was not a Muslim but a faithful Orthodox Christian. He was born and died in a Mijak Orthodox Christian family, evidence are the charters of his father Ivan for the Hilendar monastery. In 1431 his elder brother Reposh was buried in the Hilendar monastery, evidence is the inscription in Old Church Slavic in the narthex of the Hilendar Cathedral with his name and year of his death. This is a sufficiently convincing record about the Kastriot family ties with this ancient Macedonian religious center.

    Fourth, in the fierce battles with the Turks, Georgija was not fighting under the flag of "the Eagles", as the Arnautian "scientists" and quasi-historians of Bejta type like to say, but under the Mijak holy flag known as "A flag with a cross", with the symbol of ancient Macedonia on a red field-the Lion! According to a legend in the villages Gorno Melnichani and Pareshe there were about 14 houses of descendants of Georgija' sons, Ivan and Pavle, who kept close family relations with their relatives in the village Simona and in the town Kroja and they visited each other.

    All of them" under the pressure of the wild Gegi bandits" during the Balkan wars migrated in Sophia, Salonika and Constantinople. (Kosta Zunguloski, Chronicle notes.2

    The name of Kastriot Georgija is related to another very significant
    event for the history of the Macedonian people.

    Namely, after his death in 1468, over 200.000 Macedonians, members of the Mijak ethnic group, fearing possible revenge from the Turks, through the Rodon Gulf, at the town Leska (now Lesh), migrated, a part of them in Dalmatia and in the Venice Republic and a part in South Italy in the districts - Apulia, Calabria and Sicilia. The native Italian population called the Prishels from Arvania- Galabardnos, that is Golobrdjans (in dialect Golobrzdans), which was understandable, because a great part of those migrators originated from the district Golo Brdo, then from the bottom of the mountain Mokra and the region Chermenika, all of them in now Central Albania. (See with: K.Treimer.Lingvistisch-kultur-historische.447).

    Before the end of the XIV century, in those districts, the new immigrated Macedonian population formed its own Orthodox Church municipalities and already at the beginning of the XVI century, in the heart of the Catholic Church the Macedonian orthodox eparchy was formed, known as "Italian orthodox eparchy", its first archbishop was the metropolitan Timotej. Almost three centuries that eparchy was under the Ohrid Archbishopric-Patriarchy at the time when it was the biggest church in the Christian world. Its diocese, consisted of 32 eparchies, extended from Sicilia on the west to Ukraine on the east. (See documentary, chronologically and wider with: I.S.Palamov], New documents.1-31, with: E.E. Golubinskiq, Kratkiq ocherk].120-139 and with Ier.Arseniq, Destiny of the Orthodox Church.80-91).

    In order to count all merits by which the duke Georgija Kastriot
    obligated Macedonia and the Macedonian nation we shall need much wider space. But the above said is enough to see who was Georgija Kastriot and how great was his real historical role, dimension and significance.

    So, based on the presented documents and evidences it can be said that the Macedonian people has holy, moral and national obligation to praise, glorify and honour his national tribune Georgija, not as arnautian Gjergj Kastrioti - Skenderbeg, since such person did not existed, but as Macedonian Georgija Kastriot - Iskender, who as original historical person, existed in a complex historical period in areas which at his time were a constituent part of Macedonia, inhabited by Macedonian native population. From there is our obligation to Georgija as to a person who is Macedonian national pride and glory!
    Why do you even bother changing world history, thats a mystery to me.

  11. #171

    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by arthuros View Post
    Yup, its real 'genocide' with more albanians after than before it
    And you didnt say anything about illyrians this time? No more quotes from wiki?

    But Madik & co i've answered your question, but still no answer from you. Guess ill have to repeat my question (or you just cant find that answer in wiki, probably because it doesnt exist):



    And?
    Simple, always !

  12. #172
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by arthuros View Post

    Well my point is, if cant see this by yourself, that is something wrong when a one ethnic community doubled its population in a very short period, and all others declined by half? Maybe it shows exact nature of albanian policy towards Kosovo and not just Kosovo, but MAcedonia, Montenegro and Greece also.
    policy in what way. they were ordered to have more children? a some kind of evil master plan to conquer the world by procreating?

  13. #173
    hellbard's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    make love not war..

  14. #174

    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    policy in what way. they were ordered to have more children? a some kind of evil master plan to conquer the world by procreating?
    No, matko evil plan was to slaughter 600.000 Serbs and Jews in Jasenovac concentration camps.

    Maybe you heard something about that? No ustases crimes in your history books?

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...66011464565164
    Last edited by arthuros; April 14, 2007 at 09:52 PM.

  15. #175
    xxax's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    the great albanian conspiracy to keep reproducing until they conquer the world... or what?

    I cannot see. Is this one of those New World Order things?

    Plan? So it didn't happen? What has this got to do with the Jugoslav war?
    Last edited by xxax; April 14, 2007 at 06:47 PM.

  16. #176

    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Leopold, if Aisha was underage, what was she doing as nurse at Battle of Bedru?Laws at that time state that no girl under age of 15 was allowed to participate and heal wounded...Yes, wikipedia kicks ass...

    Talk about morality, hehe thank you, see no one likes their faith in any way to be attacked...every serb refer to me as muslim,you muslim this, you muslim that, I am Bosnian, keep my faith outside,but have it your way, serbians wernt known in former Yu for their manners...You attack not me than, but my faith..if extremist exist in now...serbians with that kind of attitude are making them.

    As for Bogumils, who you claim first had to be of ortodox faith to become bogumils is redicilous.Just becouse a small otodox sect from Bulagria started relegious movment doesnt make all who later joined ortodox Bogumils(as Matko said they called themself Dobri Kristjani, good christians).What about paternes, catars, they were not near ortodox, yet they belonged to same religious movment as Bogumils.(Bogumils simply means, dear to God) By your logic you are simply saying that only ortodox southslavs are defacto serbian.
    So only Serbians were ortodox, Serbian King or to claim crown had to be ortodox?This is odd, becouse Bosnian Kings who claimed Serbian crown and rulership of serbs were catholics officially(remeber the Pope ) Also same were Byz and Hungarians doing, they are serbians as well than?Your logic is flawed...
    Fighting with the Wisdom, the Bosnian Kingdom

  17. #177

    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by xxax View Post
    the great albanian conspiracy to keep reproducing until they conquer the world... or what?
    I cannot see. Is this one of those New World Order things?
    Plan? So it didn't happen?
    EDIT: And it is a Serbian documentary....
    Hm, you are trying to be funny, but your posts are really more tragic than funny, you know...

    Other from that, dont know what you are talking about, and personally i dont care about you stupid, little provocations. And "if you dont see", buy glasses, ok?

    BTW it is yugoslavian documentary, if you know the difference, which i doubt.

    Or maybe Wiesenthal center is also 'serbian':
    http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenth...11/xm1103.html

    "Murder of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies

    Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasa regime. The number of Jewish victims was between 20,000 and 25,000, most of whom were murdered there up to August 1942, when deportation of the Croatian Jews to Auschwitz for extermination began. Jews were sent to Jasenovac from all parts of Croatia - from Zagreb, from Sarajevo, and from other cities and smaller towns. On their arrival most were killed at execution sites near the camp: Granik, Gradina, and other places. Those kept alive were mostly skilled at needed professions and trades (doctors, pharmacists, electricians, shoemakers, goldsmiths, and so on) and were employed in services and workshops at Jasenovac. The living conditions in the camp were extremely severe: a meager diet, deplorable accommodations, a particularly cruel regime, and unbelievably cruel behavior by the Ustase guards. The conditions improved only for short periods - during visits by delegations, such as the press delegation that visited in February 1942 and a Red Cross delegation in June 1944."

  18. #178
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    totally of topic.
    i dont want to open this jasenovac theme again. but if you wish to discuss that lets start.
    this is not theme about jasenovac. and im studying history so know a lot abiut ww2. and besudes the history books i have been reading original documents about that subject.
    why did you bring this subject anyway we were talking abiut events from 1989 till present times. maby you have problems differentiating todays republic of croatia and ww2 independent state of croatia. that are totally different things.

    and my opinion of ndh is:
    N.D.H. = Nudimo Dupe Hitleru
    and dr.Pavelic is worst criminal in ours history.
    but this "playing" with numbers of people killed in jasenovac is allso shamefoul.
    todays estimate (by slavko and ivo goldstein -cro histotians that are actually jews is about 100.000/60.000 killed -even the israelis agreed to this number check the new info. and that is a terribly high number -a whole zadar city killed in one place, terrible). but this 600.000 number is not correct. as you might know there are no phorensical evidences or documents that will support that number. and number of 1.700.000 dead in whole yugoslavia is allso incorect. a communist yugoslav researchers were able to find "only" about 500.000 confirmed dead in whole yu.
    see what goldstein is got to say- and you should know that part of his family was killed there.
    http://ssla.oneworld.net/article/view/84506/1/2304

    uor first president - tudjman tried the oposite - to underestimate the number and was very wrong about that.
    Last edited by Matthæus; April 14, 2007 at 07:02 PM.

  19. #179
    xxax's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by arthuros View Post
    Hm, you are trying to be funny, but your posts are really more tragic than funny, you know...

    Other from that, dont know what you are talking about, and personally i dont care about you stupid, little provocations. And "if you dont see", buy glasses, ok?

    BTW it is yugoslavian documentary, if you know the difference, which i doubt.

    Or maybe Wiesenthal center is also 'serbian':
    http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenth...11/xm1103.html

    "Murder of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies

    Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasa regime. The number of Jewish victims was between 20,000 and 25,000, most of whom were murdered there up to August 1942, when deportation of the Croatian Jews to Auschwitz for extermination began. Jews were sent to Jasenovac from all parts of Croatia - from Zagreb, from Sarajevo, and from other cities and smaller towns. On their arrival most were killed at execution sites near the camp: Granik, Gradina, and other places. Those kept alive were mostly skilled at needed professions and trades (doctors, pharmacists, electricians, shoemakers, goldsmiths, and so on) and were employed in services and workshops at Jasenovac. The living conditions in the camp were extremely severe: a meager diet, deplorable accommodations, a particularly cruel regime, and unbelievably cruel behavior by the Ustase guards. The conditions improved only for short periods - during visits by delegations, such as the press delegation that visited in February 1942 and a Red Cross delegation in June 1944."
    And all the doctors told me i have 10/10 vision... I was only remarking on the fact that 600.000 people did not die at Jasenovac ok? I am a total partisan fan (both grandfathers were partisans, one was held till the end of the war on Rab) but that number is fabricated. The reason i said the documentary is Serbian is that you tend to exaggerate a bit...

    And actually i do know the diffirence from Serbia and YU since I lived in YU... But in the last years you did have a problem telling them apart...
    Last edited by xxax; April 14, 2007 at 07:11 PM.

  20. #180

    Default Re: Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    totally of topic.
    i dont want to open this jasenovac theme again. but if you wish to discuss that lets start.
    this is not theme about jasenovac. and im studying history so know a lot abiut ww2. and besudes the history books i have been reading original documents about that subject.
    why did you bring this subject anyway we were talking abiut events from 1989 till present times. maby you have problems differentiating todays republic of croatia and ww2 independent state of croatia. that are totally different things.

    and my opinion of ndh is:
    N.D.H. = Nudimo Dupe Hitleru
    and dr.Pavelic is worst criminal in ours history.
    but this "playing" with numbers of people killed in jasenovac is allso shamefoul.
    todays estimate (by slavko and ivo goldstein -cro histotians that are actually jews is about 100.000/60.000 killed -even the israelis agreed to this number check the new info. and that is a terribly high number -a whole zadar city killed in one place, terrible). but this 600.000 number is not correct. as you might know there are no phorensical evidences or documents that will support that number. and number of 1.700.000 dead in whole yugoslavia is allso incorect. a communist yugoslav researchers were able to find "only" about 500.000 confirmed dead in whole yu.
    see what goldstein is got to say- and you should know that part of his family was killed there.
    http://ssla.oneworld.net/article/view/84506/1/2304

    uor first president - tudjman tried the oposite - to underestimate the number and was very wrong about that.
    Oh, really: slaughter of 600.00 serbs are offtopic and irrelevant. Maybe is your ustasas president Tudjman and his nazi ideology more relevant? Maybe it was irrelevant to the Serbs back in 1990. seeing croatian nazi ideology rising again? I dont know how should Jews would react if some nazi president assume power in Germany?

    Or Simon Wiesenthal center is not correct, because it is their site i quoted? maybe they lied, but ustase telling the truth?

    It is shamefull matko, you as croat should be very ashamed, not acting like this. But im not surprised. Not from you, and your albanian allies.

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