Faction Thread: The Ottoman Empire

[Soulghast]

Everything concerning the Ottoman Empire should be posted here.

[TWoxy]

This is a good idea, on RTR Fan's part, having a whole thread just for Ottoman History. Ah well, better get started. I'll publish my writings and pictures on this thread for the team to use. And anyone is welcome to post, I need all the help I can get !

[TWoxy]

Here are some pcitures to help with skinning along with their descriptions.
The 1st one is a Sipahi from the Renaissance period, and although most of the picture is accurate, I doubt the flamboyant plumeage would have been worn in battle.
The 2nd picture is an unfortunately small one, but details well the Kesici Silkharda Musellah musketeer (centre), the Zhirli Nefer halberdier (left) and the Solak guard archer (right), although I believe the Solak's garb would have been slightly more regal.
The 3rd is an illustration of some Kesici Silkharda Musellah arquebusiers, detailing the colourful uniform of the Janissaries. The figure in the middle, bearing the large headress and plumeage is, I believe, none other than the Sultan Murad himself.
The 4th features a colourful water colour of a Kesici Silkharda Musellah trooper, without his arms which makes it difficult to discern which Janissary in particular he is. I believe, due to the rather regal-looking robes he is wearing, he is a member of the elite archer guards, the Solaks.

[TWoxy]

Another excellent water-colour by Haydar Hatemi, this time detailing a high-ranking Ottoman army officer, discernible from his colourful garb and notable headress.

[Axe-Battler]

One thing they DEFINITELY need is superior artillery and gunpowder.

They perhaps in mtw2 vanilla have the weakest gunpowder artillery which is obsurd I think.

I'm not saying they need the best, but they need some of the best.

[TWoxy]

I agree with you ramtha, but at the moment I'm focusing on the infantry and Janissaries.

[Icefrisco]

i think the ottomans are reasonably porttrayed in rtw other then a few things.

1.needs to be recoloured red. i think rtr fan was doing this but hes gone.

2.needs to rename levy/militia units to something else, e.g. muslim fuedal levy or arab fuedal levy. they also need to be changed to be extremely cheap but extremely weak, this would help to create the huge but weak ottoman armies.

3.constantinople needs to become their capital

thats it for now.

-arfrisco

[TWoxy]

I had sent a few long essays of mine on how the Ottoman troops could be implemented in game to RTR Fan, but as you say, he is gone(we did get round to discussing it somewhat). And I did advise him about the new unit types that could be implemented.

P.S Not sure I agree with you on 2. The rank-and-file Janissary, or Kesici Silkharda Musellah, was, at the time, one of the most well-trained and disciplined soldiers in Eurasia, equipped with the best equipment possible. Being recruited via the devsirme meant the Janissaries were trained from a young age in the ways of war. Therefore, the Ottoman army was anything but extremely weak.

[Icefrisco]

excuse em, i wasnt clear. i meant the large but weak levy forces. the ottomans had either A) janisarries(can spell) who were some of the best soldiers in the world or B)levies who were sucessfully used as cannon fodder because they were very weak and illdisciplined yet took many blows meant ofr the elite janissaries.

janissaries only made up a small part of the ottoman army. most of it were spear armed levies.

[justme]

i think the ottomans are reasonably porttrayed in rtw other then a few things.

1.needs to be recoloured red. i think rtr fan was doing this but hes gone.

2.needs to rename levy/militia units to something else, e.g. muslim fuedal levy or arab fuedal levy. they also need to be changed to be extremely cheap but extremely weak, this would help to create the huge but weak ottoman armies.

3.constantinople needs to become their capital

thats it for now.

-arfrisco

1. I think the Ottoman uniforms were not only red, but had various colors, like in the plates Sabre657 posted (red of course is one of those colors, but there's also blue, yellow, white...)

2. see further down

3. Already done in the latest campaign beta I posted some time ago

I had sent a few long essays of mine on how the Ottoman troops could be implemented in game to RTR Fan, but as you say, he is gone(we did get round to discussing it somewhat). And I did advise him about the new unit types that could be implemented.

P.S Not sure I agree with you on 2. The rank-and-file Janissary, or Kesici Silkharda Musellah, was, at the time, one of the most well-trained and disciplined soldiers in Eurasia, equipped with the best equipment possible. Being recruited via the devsirme meant the Janissaries were trained from a young age in the ways of war. Therefore, the Ottoman army was anything but extremely weak.

the banning of RTR Fan was truly a major drawback for our mod

excuse em, i wasnt clear. i meant the large but weak levy forces. the ottomans had either A) janisarries(can spell) who were some of the best soldiers in the world or B)levies who were sucessfully used as cannon fodder because they were very weak and illdisciplined yet took many blows meant ofr the elite janissaries.

janissaries only made up a small part of the ottoman army. most of it were spear armed levies.

You may have a point here, but I have to say that my impression about the Ottoman army of the time is that it was one of the strongest - if not THE strongest - army in the Eurasian and African region. Not only did they destroy the Mameluks of Egypt in the space of a year and push back the Safavids, they could even sustain (almost-)concurrent wars on multiple fronts in Europe, Asia and Africa with considerable success... After all, our timeframe coincides with the height of Ottoman power and its maximum expansion.

So, even if Janissary (elite) units would be relatively "few" (and probably only recruitable in certain regions - eg Constantinople), the rest of the Ottoman army seems to have been quite strong in its own right and not just cannon-fodder levies...

also, Ottoman armies should be gunpowder-heavy - they seem to have had some of the best artillery in the world at the time

[Icefrisco]

the rest of the Ottoman army seems to have been quite strong in its own right and not just cannon-fodder levies...

they were quite strong because they had so much cannon fodder and a few extremely strong soldiers. just think of the russians in ww2. they had so many conscrips and then they had a few extremely powerful guard divisions. i hope that comparison can help!

also, Ottoman armies should be gunpowder-heavy - they seem to have had some of the best artillery in the world at the time

good point.

I think the Ottoman uniforms were not only red, but had various colors, like in the plates Sabre657 posted (red of course is one of those colors, but there's also blue, yellow, white...)

they werent only red but red appears to be the main color.

[Ahiga]

From what I have read, the Turk's had and continued to have a very strong and very large cavalry arm. In their infantry, the Azabs would be what arfrisco has mentioned. Cannon fodder meant to absorb the attack, not to carry the fight. However, reading further, their infantry seems a bit deeper than just levies meant to absorb the damage. They do not have really anything in the form of heavy infantry save the Janissaries, but they do have some interesting units.

Their Cavalry is noted to be the real fearsome and numerous thing, not the Janissaries. However it notes that the Sipahis chaffed at the increasing focus on muskets by European Infantry, and that it took them awhile to adopt the use of such unchivalrous weapons.

Some notes from Osprey's book on it.



Getting infantry info now.





One of the few armored infantry they'd have is the Voynik, which were Balkan Christians.

From the mid 1500s onward, firearms gets to be more common in the non military classes. They tried to combat it, but accepted the inevitable and began to enlist armed Turkish Peasants, Christian Huntsmen of Dalmatia, Albania, and Bosnia by the 17th century. What I would do is perhaps make the Ottomans have to wait to recruit the cheap 'levy gunners', which Europeans would have easy access too. Where they might start to recruit such cheap gunpowder-armed infantry perhaps from the get go, Ottomans would have to wait until closer to the Mid 1500s. Prior to that, they'd have to rely on Janissaries to fulfill the role, and stick with bow-armed infantry.

Depending on how far you advance into the Renaissance, there is also the Tufekcis, which seem to be more honorable and disciplined, of relatively small units armed with quality arquebuses and muskets. There is nothing really in the form of good battle line infantry. Everything is more light, more guerrilla, not meant to sit and duke it out

[TWoxy]

I'm glad my Ottoman thread is getting such a great response! Especially from Ahiga, thanks for the info. I have to stress that the perception of the Janissaries as being an "Old Guard" of the Ottoman army has to be banished. They were used to extensively in the battle-line, and the levies (Azabs will be included in R:TW, and in reality they were a lot more competent than vanilla suggests) were used as support, such as on the wings. Ahiga mentions Voynuks and Tufenki; both were featured in the latter of our time period, the Voynuks being Christian heavy infantry and the Tufenki being arquebusiers, of lower quality than the Janissaries. By the time period covered by our mod, I believe the only Janissaries armed with bows were the elite Solak guard archers; the rest of the Janissaries having adopted firearms. The Janissaries as portrayed in the plates were unarmoured, polearmed troops in the main (I hope to soon upload some more pictures), the Zhirli Nefer being heavily armoured assault Janissaries, designed to assault entrenched positions. I intend to post my messages that I sent to RTR Fan a while ago; it would be more useful if everyone could see them.


P.S Here's some interesting info, the devsirme (the infamous child levy) not only raised soldiers, but raised a large part of the Ottoman civil service. And the janissaries were not only combat troops, but consisted of several arms, the combat divisions being but one of them. The Saka (translating as Water Carriers, literally - an ambulance and sanitary corps), the Bostanci (Gardeners, literally - comprising the palace guard and elite artillerists), the Topcu (Field artillerists), the Cebeci (Armourers), the Baltaci (Woodcutters, literally - an engineer and woodcutter corps). Mehmet II added the Arabacilari (Wagons and transport) and Lagimcilar (Miners and sappers) corps to the system. Another interesting fact, the officer cadre of the janissaries were called according to kitchen terms; the colonels being Asci Ustasi (master cooks), senior sergeants being Asci (cooks) and the quartermasters being Asci Basi (chief cooks). Janissary unit banners were supplemented with large brass kazans (soup pots - no, really) carried by two Karakullukcu (scullions - essentially sergeants) accompanied by a third soldier who carried a huge ladle over his shoulder. Far from being a mere symbol, this kettle was actually used to feed the orta (regiment). Losing the regiment's soup pot was akin to losing a regimental standard in Napoleonic-era Europe; a shame that would haunt that would haunt a regiment until they were able to redeem themselves.

[TWoxy]

Right, I have found this excellent picture in one of my modelling books (Vlad the Impaler, by Warhammer Historical, as a matter of fact). The foreground depicts Kesici Silahkharda Musellah, armed with polearms. The middle of the picture depicts the Balkan Christians in Ottoman service, heavy infantry armed in the western style. And the background depicts the Zhirli Nefer janissaries, the assault troops. I hope this helps the skinners. EDIT: I had to resize it so I could upload it; this has left it somewhat small, so I think you'd have to use Microsoft Picture Manager to get it back to standard size. in the mean time, I'll try to get a larger version.

[Ahiga]

Right, I have found this excellent picture in one of my modelling books (Vlad the Impaler, by Warhammer Historical, as a matter of fact). The foreground depicts Kesici Silahkharda Musellah, armed with polearms. The middle of the picture depicts the Balkan Christians in Ottoman service, heavy infantry armed in the western style. And the background depicts the Zhirli Nefer janissaries, the assault troops. I hope this helps the skinners. EDIT: I had to resize it so I could upload it; this has left it somewhat small, so I think you'd have to use Microsoft Picture Manager to get it back to standard size. in the mean time, I'll try to get a larger version.

I'd suggest uploading to imageshack to get it to retain it's proportions.

http://www.imageshack.us/

[TWoxy]

Thanks, I'll do that.

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

Is it possible to add to Ottoman Empire this band?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-qzTVBu4HU
I notice some christian factions have cross and bells to add moral.Perhaps Mehter band can act in similiar fashion.
Also if you choose to change music in mod, consider implementing Mehter band.

[Cadmium77]

Is it possible to add to Ottoman Empire this band?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-qzTVBu4HU
I notice some christian factions have cross and bells to add moral.Perhaps Mehter band can act in similiar fashion.
Also if you choose to change music in mod, consider implementing Mehter band.

That is very cool. Thanks.

[TWoxy]

TBH, I had come across the Ottoman military band several times whilst reading books and once again whilst researching this mod. I put a bit thought into how they could be implemented in-game, but gave up, as I thought it was impossible with the current game engine. However, I never considered changing the actual Ottoman music within the game. It is a great idea, which I'm sure will be implemented in a future release. Thanks +rep

[TWoxy]

Reading the Hungarian faction thread, I noticed that a short list of Hungarian units had been written up. I hope, in the next few days, that I will be able to get one written up for the Ottomans as well.