How shall we choose surnames for starting family members in MTW2?

[deRougemont]

The title says it; how shall we choose surnames for starting family members in MTW2? Or should we bother?

As everyone knows by now, most starting families in MTW2 have no surnames. In the near future we may want to change this so starting families won't bore us to death by only having first names. However, after looking into the possibilities for one faction - England - I realized this could be a daunting task. So I'd like advice from anyone who can give it about the following:

What time-frame parameters should we make for choosing names? Using England as an example, William the Conqueror didn't have a surname. His sons had three different ones which were actually more like nicknames: Curthose, Beauclerk and Rufus. The first important royal English surname is Plantagenet, which began 40 years after the start of the game. Should we step into the future a bit a pre-select the surnames?

We should come up with possible surnames for each Western faction that doesn't already have one. Please post any and all ideas below. Also keep in mind, that we can ultimately only have one surname for each faction's starting family. Because of the way the descr_strat.txt file is built, whatever surname the faction leader has will also be automatically given to his children.

[Black Francis]

Hmmmm,
I would go with giving the game a push in the right direction personally and name the English Plantagenet. The families were related so I dont see much of a problem.

With my beloved Kingdom of Sicily the name should obviously be Hauteville which I believe in the new Italianate form in which Sicilian Vespers has worked over the list is Altavilla (or somesuch).

[deRougemont]

I was thinking of Plantagenet as well for the English.
Definitely Altavilla for Sicily.
Most likely von Hohenstaufen for HRE. Though they came a bit later, the game starts during the dying Salier dynasty. You know Heinrich's son in the game? Yeah, he died, no children, and that was it for the Saliers.
The others I have no clue!

[Manji]

Hmmm... Portugal is tricky for some reasons...

First of all, from it's inception up until circa 1580 we were ruled by three different "houses" or "families", namely:

The House of Burgundy: (our first King, Afonso Henriques, was son of Henrique (Henry) of Burgundy, which was son of the Duke of Burgundy. This House ruled up until Fernando I.

The House of Avis, from D. João I to Cardeal Henrique (Cardinal Henry).

The House of Habsburg (also called the Philippine Dynasty, seeing as we were united with Spain and under rulership of the spanish King's from Felipe I to Felipe III).

So far, from what I've read, there was no accepted royal surname beside "Of Portugal".
D. Afonso Henriques, the first king, had all his sons named ".... of Portugal" and the tradition remained.

I might be wrong though but I'll try to gather some more information.

[Black Francis]

The others I have no clue!

I guess we wait until other "faction fanatics" give us some pointers.

[deRougemont]

So Gil, wouldn't the surname "Henriques" be the way to go? He's your first king; we could assume the line continued successfully after that. Or choose one of the surnames that encompasses the idea of Portuguese greatness (my reason for choosing von Hohenstaufen)

@Black Francis

Merry 1,000 posts! (in advance)

And yes, I'm hoping the armchair-historians will stumble in and give their 2 cents.

[Manji]

Hmmm... not really.
See, "Henriques" is merely a patronymic, meaning "Son of Henry".

Afonso Henriques was his "prince" name, once he became king he was "King D. Henrique"; his sons by his queen were all dubbed "... de Portugal" but his bastard sons or "natural" sons were all named "... Afonso".

The second king, with the princely name "Sancho de Portugal" became King D.Sancho I, all his sons "... of Portugal" but his natural/bastard sons were named "... Sanches", which is a patronymic for "son of Sancho".

All the royal princes were "of Portugal", only their non-royal offspring got a patronymic surname.

This never changed, if i'm not mistaken, up until the late 17th century when all roayl princes began having huge composite names with several first names and surnames.
(for example, King-consort Peter III, born Pedro Clemente Francisco José António de Bragança hence of the House of Bragança).

[deRougemont]

Hmmm... not really.
See, "Henriques" is merely a patronymic, meaning "Son of Henry".

Afonso Henriques was his "prince" name, once he became king he was "King D. Henrique"; his sons by his queen were all dubbed "... de Portugal" but his bastard sons or "natural" sons were all named "... Afonso".

The second king, with the princely name "Sancho de Portugal" became King D.Sancho I, all his sons "... of Portugal" but his natural/bastard sons were named "... Sanches", which is a patronymic for "son of Sancho".

All the royal princes were "of Portugal", only their non-royal offspring got a patronymic surname.

This never changed, if i'm not mistaken, up until the late 17th century when all roayl princes began having huge composite names with several first names and surnames.
(for example, King-consort Peter III, born Pedro Clemente Francisco José António de Bragança hence of the House of Bragança).

First of all, I like the avatar you had 45 minutes ago better.

Secondly, from what you just said, it seems de Portugal would be best. I wonder if this became a tradition after Afonso's line was removed from the scene? It doesn't seem like another king could accept anything but this "surname" since it carries such heavy territorial weight to it...

[Manji]

I think it might stem from Afonso Henriques' staunch claim at kingship; the fact that he named his sons, royal princes "de Portugal" just seems to emphasize the claim "Portugal exists and is independent, not a mere county".
"de Portugal" still exists today as the official name of all royal Princes, even while being of the present House, the House of Bragança.

More, if for game purposes all members of the royal family (Princes and Princesses) are "de Portugal" it's both perfectly credible historically sound.
They should drop the "de Portugal" once they are King though.

[deRougemont]

Just did a quick check for Spain and France...

Seems the Capetian House ruled France throughout the period of the game. So, surname should probably be Capet for them.

Spain's would probably be "de Castilla".

Is it just me, or does it seems like doing this would add a lot of color to the game; look at the big named character that will be included which these factions if we confirm them:

von Hohenstaufen
Capet
de Portugal
de Castilla
de Altavilla
Plantagenet

So much better than being surnameless, I think. This way it will be easy to track your direct line all the way through a campaign.

[finneys13]

Just looking at wiki, the forebear of the Plantagenets was Geoffrey V, Count of Anjou, who was only born in 1113.

Maybe just call the King of England William de Normandie?

As Gaels didn't use surnames in that way, they should be exempt from having this family name list, Máel Coluim mac Donnchada is the King of Scotland in 1080, but his son was Donnchad mac Maíl Coluim, ie. Donnchad the son of Máel Coluim.

You need the randomity for the Scots, it is up to you if the king is called King Máel Coluim or King Máel Coluim mac Donnchada.

[deRougemont]

The problem that arises with "de Normandie" is that was more of a title rather than a name. Plus, all his sons and daughters will automatically get that name as well which will carry on throughout the game. Plantagenet is only one generation away from William I, so very close. It is also a house or family name which would be intended to carry down the line of all direct descendents (I think). We'll see what others think. Honestly we could do it either way...

As for the Scots, that's ok if we leave them with just first names. I would however prefer Mael Coluim over the other version, just because the latter would be impossible to mod. It would have to be Mael Coluim or Mael mac Donnchadad (omg, such strange creatures those gaelic names are!).

[Kingmaker]

I agree with Finneys, I think the king of England should be either William 'of Normandy' or possibly 'de Normandie'. Although the dynasty has retrospectively been called the Plantaganets, it wasn't adopted formally as a surname until Richard III signed it as his name in 1483 - and he was the last Plantagenet king. The name wasn't used at all until the time of Henry II.

[Black Francis]

I think for the Kingdom of England we should either go with Plantagenet or plain old of England.

[Gorrrrrn]

FWIW I'd favour a simple "of England" or equivalent for all starting royal houses. That way it's easy to distinguish them amongst all the factions - not everyone will recognise the surnames for countries they're not familiar with.

Anyway surnames were adopted in an uneven fashion.

see wikpedia article on family names to see how complicated the situation is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name

[chgo]

FWIW I'd favour a simple "of England" or equivalent for all starting royal houses. That way it's easy to distinguish them amongst all the factions - not everyone will recognise the surnames for countries they're not familiar with.

Anyway surnames were adopted in an uneven fashion.

see wikpedia article on family names to see how complicated the situation is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name

That "of England" stuff is some great idea , i would vote for it.
Though this can be used for some factions, still there are factions for whom we can't use it like for the Turks: "of Turkey". In this time period no one would have talked about the word Turkey

by the way the surname for HRE could be Beckenbauer

[Odovacar]

Good idea. For Hungary, task woulf be easy.
Save one problem. In Hungary the kings till 1300 were of the Árpád dynasty, who conquered Hungary for our people.
However, there were no family names yet.
So a king was called like Béla from the Árpád dynasty. How would we put this into the game?
Árpád? Árpádinian?

[deRougemont]

Good idea. For Hungary, task woulf be easy.
Save one problem. In Hungary the kings till 1300 were of the Árpád dynasty, who conquered Hungary for our people.
However, there were no family names yet.
So a king was called like Béla from the Árpád dynasty. How would we put this into the game?
Árpád? Árpádinian?

Hmmm... most of the other countries would say "somone OF something". For example, Heinrich VON Hohenzollern (i.e., of the hohenzollern family). could this method be used for the hungarians?

[finneys13]

FWIW I'd favour a simple "of England" or equivalent for all starting royal houses. That way it's easy to distinguish them amongst all the factions - not everyone will recognise the surnames for countries they're not familiar with.

Anyway surnames were adopted in an uneven fashion.

see wikpedia article on family names to see how complicated the situation is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name

But as William was from Normandy, not England, William 'of Normandy' or 'de Normandie' would be only right, not 'of England' or 'd'Angleterre'.

Him and his immediate descendants were of Norman blood, that should be shown.

[Odovacar]

For some reason I edited the post instead of replying to it. My mistake! -deRougemont

In Hungary's case the proper family name must be put after the name.
István from the Árpád-genus would be the correct translation, which is too long. So I advise you to use 'István Árpádházi'
(Árpádházi means: from the House of the Árpáds)

So this begs the question... are there other "house names" we could add to the Hungarian names list?

EDIT.
For the question regarding english kings.
The best solution would be: William de Normandie (since they used french language)
and creating a character in the family line, with the name Plantagenet.
Plantagenet should inherit he crown by some trigger, gameplay mechanics, etc. Only problem is it is not possible currently. So...We should
1,either accept the possibility that it is an altered history and the Norman dynasty may never die out, or if it dies out not necessarily Plantagenets inherit England.
2, or name (very unhistorically) William as Plantagenet
3, or as a third possibility use 'Of England' as a dynastical name, uniting the two dynasties.

This is a tough one. I would like to name William plantagenet, even though it is unhistorical (but only by two generations). Thus we would have a proper family name rather than a locative byname... If not, I will got with "de Normandie" instead. We seem split over this.