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Thread: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

  1. #81

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Thanks for the suggestions Shadowcry. The ideas on waves are very good, to give a different feeling behind each invasion.

    A few things to remember though:

    Each mesh is a set of 3-5 bodies and textures which remain relatively similar, but not the same. They need to have a generally similar armor type (Not clothed guys amongst well armored guys, for instance). So for example, the Russian mesh would have to work for both spearmen, Druzhina, and Kazakh horsemen. If you look at other factions, you'll see a single mesh/texture set used for more than one unit: For example in Egypt, the Ajnad mesh is used by Maghrebi marines, Harafisha Infantry, Jund Spearmen, and Ajnad Horsemen.

    So when you suggest a mesh, it will need to be utilized by more than one unit with the same texture and appearance. Now, that being said, for Mongolian Auxilia which would exist on our map before their arrival (Such as any Russian, or Turkish units), we can just make these existing units into AOR of the Mongols.

    For the Chinese units, we need to have some information showing that the Mongols used a good deal of Chinese Auxilia at least in Central Asia and Iran. We are not too much sticklers for absolute accuracy, and while I love Chinese armor and styles, I would like to make sure that they (Or the Koreans) warrant inclusion as soldiers in the Mongols in this part of the world.
    Last edited by Ahiga; June 25, 2007 at 04:43 AM.

  2. #82

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahiga View Post
    For the Chinese units, we need to have some information showing that the Mongols used a good deal of Chinese Auxilia at least in Central Asia and Iran. We are not too much sticklers for absolute accuracy, and while I love Chinese armor and styles, I would like to make sure that they (Or the Koreans) warrant inclusion as soldiers in the Mongols in this part of the world.

    I should be able to supply that info Ahiga. Give me a day or so to put it all together. But one thing I can recall off the top of my head is that when they took Baghdad, the Mongol leader spit his forces in two, and a Chinese general commanded the second half. The main artillery units, which were in the Chinese General's army, were themselves Chinese. (the rest were Muslim).

    As for the armor, after Genghis invaded and took control of northern China, he adopted the Chinese armor style for all his troops, as it gave much better protection than the hide and leather armor of the Mongols, and the Chinese were able to make these armors rather quickly and cheaply.

    More after I grab my resources and scan some pics and pages for you.
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  3. #83
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    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Here's one thing you can pull together for me CP: The generals and detailed path of mongol conquest in Khwarezmia (central asia) and later into baghdad and syria (culminating in the battle of ain jalut).

    I've almost finished scripting the crusades and need the groundwork laid out for the mongol invasions. I plan at least 2 phases.

    1st Phase:
    Genghis Khan's invasion of Khwarezm and central persia. I need a list of all his generals, family members, senior commanders that were involved in the invasion of central asia. I've already wiki searched the basic ones. I just need some more characters and details that I wouldn't know already.

    2nd Phase:
    This is basically the invasion of Georgia/Azerbaijan, the sack of Baghdad, the invasion of Syria and the assault on egypt. I know Hulagu is instrumental in this. But other names and generals and details of movements on the BC map of mongol armies after the establishment of the Ilkhanate will be very useful for me.

    These will all be spawned armies that will do these things.

  4. #84

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage41 View Post
    Here's one thing you can pull together for me CP: The generals and detailed path of mongol conquest in Khwarezmia (central asia) and later into baghdad and syria (culminating in the battle of ain jalut).

    I've almost finished scripting the crusades and need the groundwork laid out for the mongol invasions. I plan at least 2 phases.

    1st Phase:
    Genghis Khan's invasion of Khwarezm and central persia. I need a list of all his generals, family members, senior commanders that were involved in the invasion of central asia. I've already wiki searched the basic ones. I just need some more characters and details that I wouldn't know already.

    2nd Phase:
    This is basically the invasion of Georgia/Azerbaijan, the sack of Baghdad, the invasion of Syria and the assault on egypt. I know Hulagu is instrumental in this. But other names and generals and details of movements on the BC map of mongol armies after the establishment of the Ilkhanate will be very useful for me.

    These will all be spawned armies that will do these things.
    You got it Boss! Will take a couple of days to reread and scan in the info, like I told Ahiga, but will give you all I have on the subject.
    J/K
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  5. #85

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    oh ya, CA made a BIG mistake, Mongols aren't muslim! Even IF they are now, they weren't before. I don't even think they believed god at all!
    May I suggest some of the unit skins? It doesn't have to be anything complicated, as long it matches the unit card with the black armor i'm happy with it , then again, it's just a suggestion

    +rep for me if you agree with me , i might give it right back to you

  6. #86
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    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    You can suggest away to you hearts content. Though, as usual, be aware we may not implement any suggestion, not for BC 1.0 anyways. But it might help us in the future .

  7. #87

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    I know, you already mentioned that, the reskin and everything wil be done in the second version. The suggestion was meant for the future versions

    +rep for me if you agree with me , i might give it right back to you

  8. #88

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike13531 View Post
    oh ya, CA made a BIG mistake, Mongols aren't muslim! Even IF they are now, they weren't before. I don't even think they believed god at all!
    Actually, while you are correct they weren't Muslim to begin with, they were far from Athiests. Most were Pagan, with a number of various Gods (some historians state they were infinate, as they were based on Nature and Natural events), but their main one was the God of Fire who they believed protected them (it was taboo to ever pass a knife through a fire, least they cut off the head of the fire, and lose the protection it afforded them). Many other Mongols were Christian, of the Nestorian branch. Others converted to the Tao or Buddhism. It wasn't until well into the Il-Khanate's existance that a Mongol leader converted to Islam.
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  9. #89

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticPagan View Post
    I should be able to supply that info Ahiga. Give me a day or so to put it all together. But one thing I can recall off the top of my head is that when they took Baghdad, the Mongol leader spit his forces in two, and a Chinese general commanded the second half. The main artillery units, which were in the Chinese General's army, were themselves Chinese. (the rest were Muslim).

    As for the armor, after Genghis invaded and took control of northern China, he adopted the Chinese armor style for all his troops, as it gave much better protection than the hide and leather armor of the Mongols, and the Chinese were able to make these armors rather quickly and cheaply.

    More after I grab my resources and scan some pics and pages for you.
    Very cool stuff Celtic, if it's true that they were using lots of Chinese troops and chinese armor, then all the better - I love that stuff.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticPagan View Post
    Actually, while you are correct they weren't Muslim to begin with, they were far from Athiests. Most were Pagan, with a number of various Gods (some historians state they were infinate, as they were based on Nature and Natural events), but their main one was the God of Fire who they believed protected them (it was taboo to ever pass a knife through a fire, least they cut off the head of the fire, and lose the protection it afforded them). Many other Mongols were Christian, of the Nestorian branch. Others converted to the Tao or Buddhism. It wasn't until well into the Il-Khanate's existance that a Mongol leader converted to Islam.
    Was Temujin not Shamanists who worshipped the God of the sky who was supposed to be based on some nearby mountain peak?
    I believe many of Temujin's close allies were Christian, too. Few were Muslim early on. The Mongols were not bound together by religion, nor by blood, as most of the nations at the time were.

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  11. #91

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Ahiga when you create these meshes can you take like the skin of one unit and add it to another to create a unit/mesh?

    If so then you could make the Chinese units similiar but with slight variation.

    Ex The primary skin you can base the Chinese units off of can be The Chinese Halberdier. Then you could give the other units a different twist like make the Song Guardsmen chest skin slighlty more armored or using lamellar. Which can be stolen of the mongol units chests I think lol

    And the other units would be like an amalgation of Chinese skins and Mongol skins so I hope it doesn't seem wasteful.

  12. #92

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcry View Post
    Ahiga when you create these meshes can you take like the skin of one unit and add it to another to create a unit/mesh?

    If so then you could make the Chinese units similiar but with slight variation.

    Ex The primary skin you can base the Chinese units off of can be The Chinese Halberdier. Then you could give the other units a different twist like make the Song Guardsmen chest skin slighlty more armored or using lamellar. Which can be stolen of the mongol units chests I think lol

    And the other units would be like an amalgation of Chinese skins and Mongol skins so I hope it doesn't seem wasteful.
    AD can speak on behalf of skinning and modeling, but I would say that you should not really expect that. The reasoning is that we didn't apply it to units indigenous to our playable factions, so it seems unfair or illogical to do it for units which the unplayable (Except in custom battles) mongols will have, and probably have in a bit more limited force. You'll see more mongolian light horse mesh, I imagine, than heavy Chinese mesh.

    For the Mongols, we basically want to do the best possible representation without spending too much time on them. That sounds bad, but the truth is that time may be better spent on playable factions than an unplayable one. We don't want to be cheap with the Mongols, but we don't want to be over-the-top.

    And if a unit will be an amalgation of Chinese and Mongol meshes/skins, we'll need to set it out to be an Amalagation (We can't merge two existing meshes into a single unit). So for instance, if we wanted to do that, it'd have to be like:
    1. Mongolian Light
    2. Mongolian Medium
    3. Mongolian Heavy
    4. Chinese Auxilia [Medium or heavy armor]
    5. Conglomerate Auxilia - 1 Turk, 1 Mongolian, 2 Chinese, 1 Kypchak Mesh. [Light or medium]


    Now that I think about it, unless we have information about wholly or largely made up by Chinese Infantry or cavalry or archer units, it might just be best to put them in amongst a mesh with Turks or Mongolians, so for instance, 1-2 bodies are Chinese, 2 are Turks, and 1 is Mongolian.
    Last edited by Ahiga; June 26, 2007 at 12:25 AM.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    If nothing else, maybe the Mongolian siege engineer skins can be Chinese.

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  14. #94

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by IrAr View Post
    If nothing else, maybe the Mongolian siege engineer skins can be Chinese.
    Actually, there should be two meshes for the siege artillery troops. The Mongols used both Chinese and Muslim engineers, as they had no skill at the use of such machines themselves.

    Per the question about Mongolian Shaman-ism, yes, some were, or to put it more accurately, they were Animists with Shamans to aid them. Like Native Americans, everything in Nature was either a spirit or a god (or sometimes both), hence the reference to them having infinite Gods. Think of it as sort of a mainland Asian Shintoism

    @ Ahiga, You forgot the Koreans LOL

    Last edited by CelticPagan; June 26, 2007 at 12:18 PM.
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  15. #95
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    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    It's interesting to note that as long as the mongols were pagans, they were allies of Cilician armenia, and helped them defeat...the mamluks i think? Upon their conversion to islam, they betrayed the armenians, and slaughtered a delegation sent to them (king who had abdicated to a monastary life and others). It was kinda downhill from there.

  16. #96

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    dam, i'll have to check up on that... converted?? to muslim , ya right..

    +rep for me if you agree with me , i might give it right back to you

  17. #97

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike13531 View Post
    dam, i'll have to check up on that... converted?? to muslim , ya right..
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

    Turks were originally pagan too, but then converted to Islam (A few converting to Judaism, the Khazars, or Christianity, the Kypchaks).

  18. #98

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    So Ahiga a mesh is like a group of skins which are used interchangeably amongst the units?

  19. #99

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcry View Post
    So Ahiga a mesh is like a group of skins which are used interchangeably amongst the units?
    Kind of. A mesh is the body or model, the skin is what is applied on top of it. Look at Egypt's roster:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88823

    You see how the Nubians all have the same skin/texture, or how despite the change in arms, the Harafisha, Ajnad, Jund, and Maghrebi all have the same texture and model? That's because they all share the same base mesh and texture. There's up to five bodies in a mesh (The elites tend to have down to 3, as there are less of them and the need not the same diversity as lower class meshes), and five skins for them in 1 texture file, along with skins for the heads and such. Weapons and shields have a different texture file.

    So for instance, let's say we did a Light Mongolian set. There'd be 5 different meshes or bodies, each with a different texture on it. Faces and helmets could alternate amongst the unit, but the body model and body texture would remain the same.

  20. #100

    Default Re: FACTION: The Mongol Empire

    Dont get your hopes up for a Mongol re-work. Due to being emergent they are unplayable, and to me that drops them from about 7th, to about 12th or 13th on the list of factions I want to create.

    Cheers
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