FACTION: The Mongol Empire

[CelticPagan]

As Mirage has noted, this is not a faction we plan on for the first release of BC. However, I am very interested in this faction personally, and am working on getting all the needed info for future releases or as a mini-mod for this mod. Quite frankly, I am not happy with the implementation of this faction in the Vanilla M2TW version, and while I applaud the efforts of other moders, such as the DLV team, to include this faction, I still see a great need to balance it and make it more interesting, given all of the ethnic groups that went into making up a Mongol army.

@ The Mongol - the Halberdiers is an idea I took after reading of these Chinese units in the C.J.Peers' book, Soldiers of the Dragon. After the invasion of Chinese territories, the Mongols pressed many into service for their armies (failure to join meant death) and these soldiers were a big component of Chinese armies since before the Waring States Period. I simply extrapolated that they would be added to any Mongol army, especially after the foundation of the Yuan Dynasty in China by Genghis Khan. It is know that Chinese soldiers took part in many Mongol attacks on the Muslims, and that the Chinese General Gou Kan took part in the Siege of Baghdad.

I simply want to let all the other Mongol faction lovers know I am not forgetting you, but you will need to be patient for the release of this faction being re-skinned and made playable. So please consider what I have posted as just something to whet your appetite, and feel free to continue post your ideas, as I will keep them in mind for the future.

Lastly, I'd like to thank Mirage for indulging me in this side project. I know, when this project does go live, it will be the most professionally done addition to any mod, just as this mod, IMHO, is the most professionally done Mod to date.

[The Mongol]

Great idea with the minimod CelticPagan, it should be, no doubt, amazing with the knowledge you possess. I'd help but it seems you know more about me on the subject

As for the Chinese Halberdiers, another great idea. I knew they had absorbed Chinese forces but I just assumed they would be turned into the typical Mongol unit, who knows, maybe they did carry their equipment over. It looks like the Koreans did from what I've seen.

Also didn't know a Chinese general took part in the Siege of Baghdad, very interesting.

Thanks for the info.


EDIT - Durrr, didn't bother to check the last page. A Mongol Invasion expansion would be absolutely incredible! Hopefully things will go smoothly and we can see one. Good work on the mod any who guys, you rock.

[Shadowcry]

I was wondering for when the Mongols invaded, they conquered quite a large portion of the map . If based upon history many of the factions up to syria would be owned by the mongols. So how would this be represented in game?

[Miraj]

I was wondering for when the Mongols invaded, they conquered quite a large portion of the map . If based upon history many of the factions up to syria would be owned by the mongols. So how would this be represented in game?

Well the mongols invasions that will be spawned north of samarqand will be enormous. Moreso than vanilla. The game is not about repeating history but we will aim to try to give the mongol spawn a good momentum - at least enough to take over persia.. we might have to test this to make sure that they at least have a good momentum. But we're not going to be precise as to have them take over syria by X date or anything like that.

[Shadowcry]

When the Mongols begin conquering, could they attack first only the Khwarisam shah and attempt to conquer its regions in its AOR. Then at a later date proceed into Persia and so forth? So it would give like a window to prepare for the Mongols if say you are the Ghazni or Seljuks for example?

And when the Mongols are cutting through lands will they settle like vanilla or conquer one city then proceed to conquer the next subsequently? Or will they be using a more vassalizing stratergy to subdue other nations?

[Miraj]

When the Mongols begin conquering, could they attack first only the Khwarisam shah and attempt to conquer its regions in its AOR. Then at a later date proceed into Persia and so forth? So it would give like a window to prepare for the Mongols if say you are the Ghazni or Seljuks for example?

And when the Mongols are cutting through lands will they settle like vanilla or conquer one city then proceed to conquer the next subsequently? Or will they be using a more vassalizing stratergy to subdue other nations?

Each mongol stack will be given an order and a city to take. After they "settle" I will probably have scripts set up to monitor their size and perhaps spawn another invasion that will head for the heart of persia. Their specific path is still a WIP. I can't really direct what their "strategy" will be.

[The Mongol]

I'm currently reading a book on the Mongol Warlords (Genghis, Kublai, Hulegu and Tamerlane). It has some nice information on their Arms & Armor as well:

"Almost all sources agree that the Mongol soldier wore a fur cap with earflaps, a fur-lined or felt coat, thick stockings and soft leather riding boots. Those who possessed armour might have a hardened leather or iron helmet and a lamellar cuirass, usually of hardened leather pieces laced with rawhide thongs. Only the elite would own iron lamellar laced with silk thread. An armoured flap that protected the right arm would, according to some contemporary observers, be unlaced while shooting so as to not encumber the man as he pulled his bowstring. Swords were again reserved for the elite. They were not always curved sabres, as is so often thought, though even straight swords would normally be single-edged. A decorated cap and sword belt were worn as insignia of rank or command. Small battle-axes and maces were used by some Mongols, while many spears had hooks to unhorse a foe. Lassos of horse-hair rope were widely employed, but the main weapon remained, of course, the bow." (I didn't know the Mongols used battle-axes prior to this, probably not that widely, but still, interesting)


I also thought of something while reading this book last night, would it be possible for the Mongols to get an "Absorb Forces" option after they have defeated the foes army? I have a feeling this is hardcoded, but it won't hurt to continue the idea now will it?

The Mongols weren't to keen on letting their foes go so it could be "Ransom", "Absorb" and "Exterminate". Opposed to the default "Ransom, Release, Exterminate" options.

They obviously wouldn't gain half of the foes army after defeating them, but they could possibly gain 3 units in random low numbers to account for the casualties in the unit. An example being, they beat the Khwarezmians and gain a chunk of 62 Daylamis and 52 Persian Archers or...

Do you just give them a generic bonus unit that would be attached to each faction. I.e. beat the Ghorids and you gain one unit of Ghazis or Pashtuns. Beat the Indians and you gain a unit of Spearmen or Javelinmen.

Anyways, just some ideas I had while reading this book if you ever get to the Mongol Invasions expansion later on.

Hope it's helpful.

[The Mongol]

Bump.

Some interesting info about Hulegu's army who fought largely in the Middle East.

"In addition to Mongols, Turks and vassals, the Il-Khans employed a few Western mercenaries. The Mongols had an obvious respect for European military prowess, despite having defeated a number of Western armies. A few armoured knights may have been recruited, but greater interest was shown in European crossbowmen, whom the Mongols, like all lightly armoured horse-archers, greatly feared. Genoese crossbow-armed marines are even said to have been enlisted by Hulegu's gransdon Arghun."

It doesn't seem like they were widely used, but nonetheless, very interesting.

[Shadowcry]

Yeah maybe a mercenary unit could be easily made exclusively from the Mongols from just copying the Venetian or Genoese crossbowman skins. So when the mongols conquer near Iraq or Syria they would begin employing more mercenaries in their armies.

[The Mongol]

While it wouldn't be all that accurate for a Mongol army to employ half an army of Genoese crossbowmen, some rare mercenaries here and there could be interesting.

What do the devs think of my Absorb Forces idea anywho? You guys are still reading this thread right?

Don't mean to be pushy but it was just being dug down the last day or two.

[Miraj]

Don't worry Mongol, I read your idea.

In one word: HARDCODED. Its not possible.

But its a good idea nonetheless.

[The Mongol]

Damn, I had a feeling it was hardcoded.

They sure leave you modders in the dark, although it seems like it's improved from Rome.

Or maybe they gave you guys more to work with but not the tools needed to

[Babur]

I guess the Mongol trebuchet is the counterweight trebuchet such as was used against Xiangyang by Kublai Khan where it was known as the "hui-hui pao" i.e. "the Muslim Catapult" because it was believed Persian engineers built it and like this I guess:

[Sinan]

New siege engines would be a very unique addition (if that's possible at all).

[Babur]

More info on the Mongols:






Organization

The organization of the Mongol army was also an old tradition of the steppe: the decimal system. The army was built upon a squad of ten (arban). Ten of these would then compose a company of a hundred (jaghun ). The next unit was a regiment of a thousand (mingghan). Most of the commanders listed in the contemporary sources were leaders of a mingghan. The equivalent of the modem division was a unit consisting of ten thousand (tumen).

The organization was simple, but sensible. The system could also easily be applied to new conscripts from vassals, or even forcibly conscripted troops from among the conquered. Yet, it is one thing to have organized units, but quite another to have them operate with any amount of efficiency. This is why the discipline of the Mongol army was such a key factor. The tactics that the Mongol army used, such a caracole technique in which the soldiers advanced, shot, then wheeled back in order for the next rank to fire, demanded unit integrity. Unit integrity was achieved through the battue, or hunt. During the battue, the army would form lines which often stretched for miles. These ranks would then begin to envelope an area, forcing the game into the ring. The Mongols would then tighten their ranks, so that the circle continued to shrink. The objective of this was not to allow any animal to escape. An incredibly high degree of organization, communication, and cooperation was necessary for this task. Without it, points of rendezvous could not be established, gaps would eventually appear in the ranks, and inevitably, confusion would result.

Only a disciplined army, with a high degree of unit integrity and command structure could accomplish this task.


Dr. Timothy May
Assistant Professor of History
Young Hall
North Georgia College and State University

I would like to add that:
According to Tamerlane:Sword of Islam,Conqueror of the World by Justin Marozzi the Mongols had for example: the tarkhan, a position which was offered to the most senior officers and this allowed them to keep their spoils,made them immune from criminal prosecution.Also the tovachis arranged provision for the army.Obviously there was a right wing,left wing,centre and the advance guard in a typical formation.One must not forget that Turkic peoples were a crucial component of the Mongol army(After all the Mongol population was small in comparison to their vassals and conquered peoples)

[The Mongol]

@Sinan: Siege weapons are a no go, I made a thread about it a while ago.

The animations would take too much time I'm guessing.

[Sinan]

Cool.

[Babur]

I don't mind it was only a suggestion

[Sinan]

What I dislike about these proferssors and other "historians" is that they often do not source their information.
For example, Mr. May gives no source for any of his information (or maybe I missed it ?). Where and how did he find that out ?

When making prefessional disclosure it's, professional, to credit your sources.

[Babur]

yes it's very important.here is a historiographical example,yes I know this is partially unrelated to the Mongols but it's to back up Sinan's point:But a historian called Ibn Arabshah who wrote about the Timurids really despises Timur(it shows in his writing) but he doesn't appear to give much evidence from what I have read of his works