[OLD DEV THREAD] FACTION: The Eastern Roman Empire

[Sinan]

Manuel do you speak Greek, after all ?

[jermagon]

PLEASE POST FACTION SPECIFIC MATERIAL IN THE FACTION THREADS, THANKS
-MIRAGE


The byzantines

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[IMG][/IMG]

byzantine emperor bassil II.





The byzantines 2


klipanophoros




[/code]

[Manuel Komnenos]

I don't understand why mamluke sultanat armor is in byz thread. And Mirage, please resize pictures or delete them. It's very image heavy, and this thread has become badly laid out.

[Sinan]

You should put them in Spoiler tags. You can do this by *[SPOLIER] [/SPOLIER]* without the *. The images are good for artistical inspiration. I suppose the Arab armor is meant for another thread.

[Manuel Komnenos]

they're from Osprey, and are very good but are simply to big. Put them into spoiler please.
And for Sinan, unfortanetly not, but I'm looking to learn it, when I will have more time.

[Manuel Komnenos]

Great news indeed. Disgrundled goat has given us his permission, so we can use his skins of byzantine army in this great mod!
See this site and enjoy!
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93544

[CelticPagan]

He's done some fantastic work with the Byzantines. I'm extremely happy to hear he's helping us out. A Shout Out (+ rep) to those who got his permission also. Great work guys!

[Miraj]

Thanks for taking care of this Manuel. We'll be thrilled to use DG's fantastic work.

[Sinan]

Excellent news.

[Manuel Komnenos]

One more time in name of all of the team I'll thank DG for his great contribution. Also I'm looking forward to merging of DG and this great Byzantine overhaul minimod.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...t=92118&page=7

[Hansa]

I am no expert on the Byzantine military, but all these unit pics seem pre 1071 to me. I am not sure if the Byzantines in these pics are correct for a past-Manzikert empire.

[Manuel Komnenos]

pics of jermagon, you think? Yes they're mainly before komnenian army, I think that we can use two pics for representation; but this isn't important because DG has done all, and he skinned army exact from Osprey.

[Randarkmaan]

I just have a suggestion for the Byzantines. I know that you have now got pretty good skins from another modder to work with, but you will still change the stats of their units, right? Well, I've read some about the Byzantines and it seems to arrive to the conclusion that the Byzantines usually relied on foreign mercenaries (who were often equipped and trained by the Byzantines) and that their native troops often were very unreliable, one historian described them as "the laughing stock of the world, whose only goal was to run away from the battle as quickly as possible", the Crusaders in the fourth crusade often experienced that the Byzantines would run away as soon as the battle went against them even if they had superior numbers.
I'm not suggesting anything as extreme as this, but what I do suggest is something like this: You remember the "Byzantine infantry" unit from the first medieval total war? Well they had relatively good stats, good armour, high numbers and the disciplined trait, but they had poor morale. This meant that as long as the situation was under control and the Byzantine army held the advantage they would fight well, but when things started to go awry they would quickly flee. I think most of the Byzantine native troops should be like this, it would coincide with what often was written about them in history and it would encourage the player to rely on mercenaries, and it would perhaps encourage a specific style of playing when a player uses an army mostly of such native troops as he must be careful to keep the situation under control or his troops will abandon him, they would also be more easily affordable compared to troops with similar stats (except morale) because of their lower morale, which will let them use numbers as an advantage to overcome the relatively low morale of their troops. In addition (or compensation) you could give the elite Byzantine units (Kataphraktoi, Varangian guards) a morale boosting ability similar to the Milanese carrocio standard, so that if these are present in the army the common soldiery will also be more reliable.

So to sum up this would mean that Byzantine armies will be able to include a large numbers of 'professional' soldiers with relatively good stats than other factions' armies, they would be cheaper because of the low morale, but as long as the army is kept together rather than spread out and their morale is complemented with either the presence of elite units (maybe even an officer unit?) or superior numbers (or both) the lower morale of the common soldiers will not be a major problem.

[Manuel Komnenos]

We're looking to change stats of byzantines ofcourse. For example make more powerful catapracht. But I think that this will come at the end of mod ''creation''.
For mercenaries, you must know that this is the time of great emperor Manuel Komnenos (in the mod begginig), and he again introduced theme system in the empire army, so he have powerful homeland army(something like before Manzikert) and mercenaries too. This make possible ambitious conquest like Balkans(Serbia, Croatia and even part of Hungary), Cilicia, Antiochia and even south Italy(only temporarely). He even dreamed of reconquest of Roman Empire. In his army we have last appearance of mighty native byzantine army(for example recruiting of powerful athanatoi and cataprachts in Lycus thema).

[AnthoniusII]

Yes but in that time there were no cataphracts in the empire.The last ones were with Romanus IV Diogenes and died even as unit in 1071.The dynasty of Komneinoi created an other type of heavy cavalry the Pronoiarioi.Pronoiai where military lands given to someone to help him manage the cost of his armour and horse...The main diferance between kataphracts and pronoiarioi was that the 1st ones were prof units under the emperor's order but the2nd ones prof units (mostly esquires) under the land owner's order.The empire choose a system like feudalism (not the same) at a whrong time...Pronoiarioi (1 is pronoiarios) were heavy armored but with western style of armors and weapons of medetaranian european countries...

[Randarkmaan]

We're looking to change stats of byzantines ofcourse. For example make more powerful catapracht. But I think that this will come at the end of mod ''creation''.
For mercenaries, you must know that this is the time of great emperor Manuel Komnenos (in the mod begginig), and he again introduced theme system in the empire army, so he have powerful homeland army(something like before Manzikert) and mercenaries too. This make possible ambitious conquest like Balkans(Serbia, Croatia and even part of Hungary), Cilicia, Antiochia and even south Italy(only temporarely). He even dreamed of reconquest of Roman Empire. In his army we have last appearance of mighty native byzantine army(for example recruiting of powerful athanatoi and cataprachts in Lycus thema).

Yeah, but that's only for the beginning of the mod, myself I would actually find it interesting to not make Byzantium have as uber units as everyone wants it to have (at least that is the general opinion that hits me everywhere), its just not supposed to survive... I wasn't suggesting a weak army, I was suggesting a powerful army with disciplined soldiers, but it suffers from a loyalty/morale problem and an over use of foreigners and neglection of its native troops. This is not necessarily how it starts out historically at this point, but in the mod's duration this is how it is most of that time.

[Roman-Byzantium]

"Not supposed to survive"

Funnily enough, every "empire" and "Kingdom" in this game are 'not supposed to survive', all of them get wiped out at some point or another. Why not remain the game "Ottoman: Total War" then? Because the Ottomans basically crushed and absorbed almost the entire region completely at some point or another.

[Randarkmaan]

True enough... but you get what I was saying.

[Miraj]

"Not supposed to survive"

Funnily enough, every "empire" and "Kingdom" in this game are 'not supposed to survive', all of them get wiped out at some point or another. Why not remain the game "Ottoman: Total War" then? Because the Ottomans basically crushed and absorbed almost the entire region completely at some point or another.

You make a good point and thats why the TW game is all about not simulating history. But the Ottomans were not the ones that really absorbed the current factions, they reached their height after this mods end date. It was the Mongols and the Timurids that pretty swiftly wiped out and massacred most of the factions in this mod - save for the Egyptians.

[Ahiga]

Yeah, but that's only for the beginning of the mod, myself I would actually find it interesting to not make Byzantium have as uber units as everyone wants it to have (at least that is the general opinion that hits me everywhere)

They won't. No faction will, really, and no faction will really get nerfed for the sake of nerfing (The Ghorid's will be weak in defensive infantry, but have great light and heavy cavalry to make up for it). I agree that I have had some issues with the many mods which feature them getting every single unit they could want, but those are kind of undeniably centered on the author's favoritism of that faction, so it's to be expected.

Byzantine Cataphracts will probably be the heaviest in the West. Not the Best, but that's because I don't want to say any particular cavalry unit is the best. Crusader Knights will outdo the Cataphracts in the charge, more lightly armored horsemen in speed, and Byzantine Cataphracts in armor. The rest of their army might be worked on in the future, but rest assured, they will not be a jack of all trades, master of all, nor will they be weakened for the sake of being weak. We'll find some niche for them to fill that makes them different from their neighbors but effective.

We'll just approach them like we would any other faction. That is to say with both a historical and a gameplay lens - we're not going to base ourselves entirely on their history, but we won't disregard it. We didn't pump up the factions which we had as our favorites, so we won't artificially pump up or down Byzantium.