FACTION: The Kingdom of Georgia

[Rex Armeniae]

I've noticed both Armenian and Georgian churches look similar, which makes sense, so Khor Virap is a good example of that architecture.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Etchmiadzin is also a good example of this architecture:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yeah they are alike, its mostly because most of the "georgian" churches are armenian. And Etchmiadzin is the first church

But as the holy tadzruli said, lets keep this thread for Georgia.

[Tadzreuli]

Yeah they are alike, its mostly because most of the "georgian" churches are armenian. And Etchmiadzin is the first church

But as the holy tadzruli said, lets keep this thread for Georgia.

Arsen, cease to tell here fairy tales ! if you wish to argue on history, can write to another branch of a forum, only here to your aggressive attacks to address of the Georgians in particular, there is no place !!!

[JERUSALEM]

Yeah they are alike, its mostly because most of the "georgian" churches are armenian. And Etchmiadzin is the first church

But as the holy tadzruli said, lets keep this thread for Georgia.

which one just name them if u can

and

show the sources if u have it

[Giorgi I]

They are our churches

[Drtad]

I highly doubt that Armenia commisioned the building of the ancient churches of Georgia. They may have been Armenian influenced, but certainly not built by Armenians. I can see some slight differences in the style, especially when I take a look at Etchmiadzin (first cathedral in the world), and the church in Mtskheta. The Georgians have taken that as a base and have added their own flair to it, even if it is very subtle.

But enough of my critique of architecture, I have two questions. The Georgian king called himself Mephet Mephe, king of kings, and his son was called Mephe, which means king? Shouldn't he be the crown prince? Also, I noticed a lot of Armenian names in the Georgian list, is it because there were a lot of Armenians in the Georgian nobility of the time?

[Giorgi I]

and the church in Mtskheta.

which church???

Mephet Mephe

Giorgi sharp of mesia

[Drtad]

which church???

Sorry, it was the monastery that Tadzreuli posted.

Giorgi sharp of mesia

I don't understand.

[IrAr]

Drtad, there has been much diffusion between what we now call Armenians and Georgians, even to the point where the same family, called the Bagratuni in Georgia and the Bagrationi in Armenia, ruled over them.

[Tadzreuli]

But enough of my critique of architecture, I have two questions. The Georgian king called himself Mephet Mephe, king of kings, and his son was called Mephe, which means king? Shouldn't he be the crown prince? Also, I noticed a lot of Armenian names in the Georgian list, is it because there were a lot of Armenians in the Georgian nobility of the time?

Yes, it is a lot of names in Georgia not Cleanly Georgian, also as well as in Armenia likely. A little from them in Georgia have appeared from Persia or from other east countries, or from western, eats names and Jewish, for example: David, Tamar..., eats names and Greek, for example: George, Demetre..., but certainly eats also names cleanly Georgian, for example: Kakhaber, Gela, Beqa, Besiki, Iveri, Qartlosi, Zviadi..., can be eats also Armenian, is not present here what these strangeness, to that Georgia and Armenia lived in the neighbourhood in many centuries...

But it does not mean, what there can be some noblemen in Georgia were by origin Armenians, well and what? Let were, the question costs that all of them served at a court yard of the Georgian kings and the kingdom was Georgian. For example in the Byzantian Empire served on high posts and Armenians and Georgians and Slavs the life can, but Empire shouldn't Armenian, not Georgian and not Slavic..., and in Georgia was, in-current approximately 110-120 years Georgia covered the whole Caucasus, including Armenia, Shirvan, OSetia and even Iranian Adarbadagan, part of Asia minor. During king David IV "the Builder" Georgia already was empire, operated to many nationalities and various religions and it is not surprising if in service at the Georgian king Armenians, and Shirvanian, both Ossets and Greeks and Moslems served also.

On the account of crown prince I wished to name; it as "Uphlistsuli", but meaning complexity of a pronunciation of this Georgian word, have named "Mephe", besides the Georgian kings carried a title King of all Kings, or King of Kings. . .

[Irakli]

Dear users,
An opinion was posted before me stating that Georgian Kings are Armenian? (wtf??)

I want to express my knowledge about that matter and say that this statement is complete nonsense. The Georgian Royal Dynasty Bagrationi comes from noble family originationg from Sper, an land a little bit south-wet to the modern Georgian-Turkish border, which is know to be a ancient origin of some Georgian well-developed tribes. They are famous for introducing an metallurgy in the Bronze age and developing ways to melt and create metal crafts. REMEMBER the tale about Colchis land, and Golden Fleece? This is one famous prove to that opinion.

OK. Now I'll go back and therefore say that the nobles are Georgian of course and a lot of Georgians live in that lands untill now. Even number of Georgian churches, cathedrals and monasteries are preserved there.

Therefore, it is widely know, that Armenian Royal Dynasty is a late split from this noble family "Bagrationi", who became kings of Georgia much earlier.

Andsome words about similarity of Georgian and Armenian Cathedrals: a slight similarity can be seen on both churches of early chirstian period, because the canonic way to build orthodox chrches was not yet know not to Georgians and not to Armenians in the first period (IV Century),therefore most of the churches and cathedrals were built considering other major churches, like Aia-Sopia. However, I saw a lot of gergian ornaments, simbols of christianity on the early churches, which come from unique Georgian nature (not having observed similarity anywhere), therefore it can be pledged that Armenians had a quite modest part in building our churches. And in middle ages, architectural style is completly different as you can observe on pictures above.


That's all,
(c) Irakli

[IrAr]

No, I was saying that there were two branches of the family known by historians as the "Bagratids", the Bagratuni in Armenia and Bagrationi in Georgia.

The general architecture of early Churches is alike because at their respective zeniths, Georgian and Armenian kingdoms contained much of the Caucasus. King Arsen did go a little overboard, but let's keep this thread civil and research focused.

[John I Tzimisces]

Irakli, your grasp of history here is not entirely accurate. The Bagratuni/Bagrationi are indeed the same family, descending from the same Ashot Bagratuni, the Armenian leader who, in the 7th Century AD, basically usurped power from the Mamikoneans and was crowned by both the Caliph and Roman Emperor King of Armenia (King of Kings to the muslims, Prince of Princes and "Beloved son" to the Romans). Later on, the georgian branch of his family took the throne of georgia, and the armenian court at the time (still the dominant force in the caucasus) was bilingual, including both Georgians and Armenians, and a bit of a renaissance was going on. However, due to the issues concerning the Bagratunis first supporting the georgians in their endevour against the Prince of Abkhazia (10th century), but then deciding to favor the Abkhazian claim to his separatism, a schism grew and the family more or less stopped associating with each other. This is happening around the same time the Arcruni break away to form the Vaspurakan Kingdom, I think. The armenian bagratuni branch basically is completely wiped out after the abolishment of the bagratuni kingdom in armenia, along with the Arcruni and others, anyone with a royal claim is basically dead by 1100.

I would quote Hovanissian's work on this but it really isn't that pertinant to this mod, so let's all move on.

[Irakli]

John I Tzimisces,
I see that you are well educated in history, so I want to ask, is this genealogy right? as far as I know, Bagraton's genealogy is of that kind:
Vasak-> Ashot (blind) died 761 -> he had two sons:
1. Sumbat -> Ashor (msaker) and Shapuhi
2. Vasaki -> Adarnase I - this guy left the plead of Georgian Kings in heritage.


Which of these guys was Armenian king if youremember exactly? As far as I remember it was Ashor (msaker)?? Is this true?


* * *
Yes, I was right, but not completly. Armenian Kings emerged after three generations and emerged from Ashot Msaker, as far as I doubghted... Therefore Adarnase I, who is the representative of other branch ruled Tao-Klatjeti (King of Sper) and is theree generation older.


The genealogy of Armenian Kings looks that way:
Ashot Msaker (Meateater), son (804 - 824) -> Smbat Xostovanol (Confessor), son (824 - 855) -> Ashot, son (855 - 886, in 886 - 890 king) -> Ashot I (V) the Great, 885-890 - King of Armenia.

[John I Tzimisces]

Might take me a little while to get a response to you, I'm supposed to be studying Confucius right now :S

The first armenian bagratuni *king* is Ashot I who ruled as king from 885-890...


for now I'm going to just show this, although I am using Richard G. Hovanissian's book Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ers_of_Armenia

The lineage is insanely confusing to say the least.

[Drtad]

The first Bagratid was the general Bagrates of King Tigranes II of Armenia who created the Armenian Empire from the Caspian to the Mediterranean. However, what ethnicity he was is not mentioned, he may even be Jewish, as some Bagratids claim, since Tigranes did in fact reach Israel, conquer it, and took 10,000 Jewish people to help populate Tigranes's new capital, Tigranocerta. Knowing this, Bagrates could have been a Georgian as well, since the Kingdom of Caucasian Iberia was Tigranes's vassal I believe.

@Tadzreuli: Thanks for your response to my earlier questions. I asked it because I have never seen a Medieval Georgian noble with an Armenian name, but it could just be because I am ignorant on the subject.

[Miraj]

Kypchak mercenaries enter the Georgian highlands... (btw this is from the campaign map north of tbilisi/south of the caucusus)


An old roman ruin as the Caucusus mountains loom in the distance (north of tbilisi)

[Irakli]

BTW...who is working on the landscapes? he may need some help from us maybe...



And this screen also need to be edited, as far as one can seen Caucasian Snowy Mountains in a horizon nearly from any point of location in Georgia.

[Miraj]

BTW...who is working on the landscapes? he may need some help from us maybe...



And this screen also need to be edited, as far as one can seen Caucasian Snowy Mountains in a horizon nearly from any point of location in Georgia.

When you crack the vanilla hardcode for landscape generation, I will be happy to get your help.

The fact is that I made high alpine mountains in the caucusus. The landcape generation of how it shows up on the battlemap is mostly not up to me.

[Irakli]

When you crack the vanilla hardcode for landscape generation, I will be happy to get your help.

The fact is that I made high alpine mountains in the caucusus. The landcape generation of how it shows up on the battlemap is mostly not up to me.

OK... I nearly got it! But there is no way to intervene, isn't it? If we can somehow arrage generation of thin line of Caucasus alpine mountain ridge in distance, near the horizon; that would make this mod much colorfull and realistic...

As far as I get, something need to be cracked?? (wtf?)

[Miraj]

Look Irakli, this is what Tbilisi looks like on the campaign map...


The previous shot was one square north of Tbilisi.

Even if I made the mountains higher, you will never get snowcapped mountains except in winter - then everything is snow.