FACTION: The Kingdom of Georgia

[Beka]

Are these symbols accurate for the time? I've had three different people tell me three different things about the Georgian symbols. I am wary to change a set of shields unless you are sure that these should be present. Also bare in mind that many of the Georgian units are using kite or round shields with a big metal boss that sets in the center, this limits the use of such symbols.

show us the symbols you were told and we shall tell you if they are accurate

[Tadzreuli]

Are these symbols accurate for the time? I've had three different people tell me three different things about the Georgian symbols. I am wary to change a set of shields unless you are sure that these should be present. Also bare in mind that many of the Georgian units are using kite or round shields with a big metal boss that sets in the center, this limits the use of such symbols.



The Monaspa lancer unit is using the Tsars guard model already. Do you mean the unit, or the mount (horse)? I can change the mount no problem, but do we really want a super-heavily armoured cavalry mount like this? Or something a little lighter?



This was fixed long ago, but I think I didnt post a screenshot of the change.

Thanks again Tadzreuli, your information has been second to none.

Cheers

about sibols:

these heraldy, what I show you, are to late made, but the simbols are taken already from XII cen.

about the Monaspa Lancers:

Monaspa cavalry have also horse armor and I think Tsars Guard is good model for this. if "The Monaspa lancer unit is using the Tsars guard model already", OK, no problem, but I not sow on your scryns horse armor.

for Monaspa lancers we need only havy armored strong-charge cavalry !

[Tadzreuli]

titles for Georgia:

this is full title of Georgian kings:

"King od Kings of Abkhazians, Kartvels, Rans, Kakhs and the Armenian, Shah-An-Shah and Shirvan-Shah, Lord of all east and west, Sword of Mesiah."

I think this title can give Georgian king, if he able to Conquer all Caucasus ("...Abkhazians, Kartvels, Rans, Kakhs, Armenians, Shirvan-Shah), Trabizon (Lord of west), north Iran (Lord of east)and Khlat sultanat(Shan-An-Shah), and if Georgian king helped crusaiders in major battles against muslims ("Sword of Mesiah")

in history are meny sources, thet shows how Georgian king George IV Lasha prepared and planed to reconquer holy land and Jerusalem as Crusaders allies. Pope Honorius III send request letter to George IV Lasha for join to 5th Crusade and king planed to invide in Jerusalem, Damasc and Bagdad... but suddenly Mongols invision in Georgia 1220 ad, refused kings plan.

so I think we should give only Georgian kings option - called crusade! only Georgian kings, NOT Georgian ortodox patriarchs.

so, the Georgian full title wi can divided as small titles, like this:

I. MAJOR GEORGIAN TITLES

1. King of Kings
2. Shirvan-Shah (conquere Shirvan)
3.Shah-An-Shah (conquer Khlat Sultanat)
4. Sword of Mesiah (winn 3 major battles against muslims and liberated Jerusalem)
also we can give some generals and family members provincial titles too:

II. PROVINCIAL GEORGIAN TITLES

1. Eristavi - duke, gubernator of some Georgian province
2. Eristavt Eristavi - grand duke or head of major province.
3. Aznauri - nobleman
4. Raindi - knight

III. GEORGIAN MILITARY TITLES

1. Amirspasalari - minister of defence and Army chef, he had in battle major banner
2. Spasalari - general of 10 000 soldiers, he had also own deferent battle banner
3. Spaspeti - commander of 1000 soldiers, he had own battle banner
4. Asistavi - captain of 100 soldiers, he had small battle banner

IV. GEORGIAN ROAYAL ADMINISTRATION TITLES

1. Mtsignobartukhutsesi - "prime ministre" , "state chancellor"
2. Mandaturtukhutsesi - minister of police
3. Mechurchletukhutsesi - minister of finance
4. Amirejibi - head of royal cavalry stables
5. Mstovartukhutsesi - head of state security administration

V. GEORGIAN RELIGION TITLES

1. Catholicos-Patriarch - head of Georgian apostolic ortodox church, like pope...

2. Mtavarepiskoposi - head of episcophate
3. Mitropolit - head of episcophate cathedrall
4. Episkoposi - episcoph
5. Dekanozi - head of some chucrh
6. Diakvani - minor prist
7. Mgvdeli -prist
8. Ugumeni - head of monastry
9. Beri - monk

VI. GEORGIAN ROYAL ADMINISTRATION

1. Darbazi - royal court
2. Saajo Kari - royal justice

[Beka]

I looked throw georgian units and I found no crossbow units.
So I must say that there should be tow crossbow units one infantry and one medium cavalry, for the model you can use the one you used for svanian archers.

[stefanmg]

This is excellent!

I can't wait for this to be ready

I'd like top play with more Orthodox factions (I'm Orthodox myself)

[JERUSALEM]

The flag is said to have been used by early Georgian feudal states. A similar flag is shown in the Libro del Conoscimiento de todos los Reinos (XIVth century)for Sivas (Sebasteia). Sebasteia was the capital city of the former Byzantine province of Armenia Prima, and Sivas is today the capital city of the velyat of Sivas, in Cappadocia. The new flag of Georgia doesnt really have to be related with this historical banner.

However, I said something wrong when I said that the exact symbol the georgian flag has today is an ancient cilician symbol. But there actually is a very similiar ancient symbol that has a blue cross with 4 small blue crosses in each corner. Its hard to find sources on it online. I'll see if I can dig something up in some books

edit:* but you can gladly show me where the georgian flag does come from and its history

the Libro del Conoscimiento de todos los Reinos (XIVth century) this source relates not sivas but savasco which as some historians think means
sebastia(modern day sivas) but in fact there are some more ideas
1) that savasco means not sebastia but samts'khe which is region in georgia
2) and most accepted variant is that savasco simply means
sakartvelo (sakartvelo is Georgia in georgian languege)

anyway some european portolans (maps made for navigation) are putting this
5 cross simbol in the city of sebastia that is why this historians think that
savasco means sebastia but there is certain biass in this opinion as i said
but any way city of sebastia was conquered by coalition of
Ilkhan(mongol) and Georgian troops in 1315-1316 * when sultan of rum Muhammed Farvana had rebeld against Mongol occupation. and forses
of Great Emir Chupan(1304-1327) and Giorgi V the brilliant (1314-1346)
suppresed it by the use of arms they even distroed city of Ikonia the capital city of Sultanate Rum and turks were forsed to pay tribute again .
in this campaign Georgians(together with mongols) took the city of sebastia but we don't know
how long they holded it. anyway it was one big Ilkhan empire
maybe for 10 years maybe more or less. we still do not have any info but they took this city for sure .

i know there is very hard to find some sources or materials and if u try
to do this from books it is very good


* it was reign of Muhammad Khodabandeh or great khan OLjeitu(1304-1316)
and he sand this troops in minor asia.


respect

[JERUSALEM]

titles for Georgia:

this is full title of Georgian kings:

"King od Kings of Abkhazians, Kartvels, Rans, Kakhs and the Armenian, Shah-An-Shah and Shirvan-Shah, Lord of all east and west, Sword of Mesiah."

I think this title can give Georgian king, if he able to Conquer all Caucasus ("...Abkhazians, Kartvels, Rans, Kakhs, Armenians, Shirvan-Shah), Trabizon (Lord of west), north Iran (Lord of east)and Khlat sultanat(Shan-An-Shah), and if Georgian king helped crusaiders in major battles against muslims ("Sword of Mesiah")

in history are meny sources, thet shows how Georgian king George IV Lasha prepared and planed to reconquer holy land and Jerusalem as Crusaders allies. Pope Honorius III send request letter to George IV Lasha for join to 5th Crusade and king planed to invide in Jerusalem, Damasc and Bagdad... but suddenly Mongols invision in Georgia 1220 ad, refused kings plan.

so I think we should give only Georgian kings option - called crusade! only Georgian kings, NOT Georgian ortodox patriarchs.

so, the Georgian full title wi can divided as small titles, like this:

I. MAJOR GEORGIAN TITLES

1. King of Kings
2. Shirvan-Shah (conquere Shirvan)
3.Shah-An-Shah (conquer Khlat Sultanat)
4. Sword of Mesiah (winn 3 major battles against muslims and liberated Jerusalem)
also we can give some generals and family members provincial titles too:

II. PROVINCIAL GEORGIAN TITLES

1. Eristavi - duke, gubernator of some Georgian province
2. Eristavt Eristavi - grand duke or head of major province.
3. Aznauri - nobleman
4. Raindi - knight

III. GEORGIAN MILITARY TITLES

1. Amirspasalari - minister of defence and Army chef, he had in battle major banner
2. Spasalari - general of 10 000 soldiers, he had also own deferent battle banner
3. Spaspeti - commander of 1000 soldiers, he had own battle banner
4. Asistavi - captain of 100 soldiers, he had small battle banner

IV. GEORGIAN ROAYAL ADMINISTRATION TITLES

1. Mtsignobartukhutsesi - "prime ministre" , "state chancellor"
2. Mandaturtukhutsesi - minister of police
3. Mechurchletukhutsesi - minister of finance
4. Amirejibi - head of royal cavalry stables
5. Mstovartukhutsesi - head of state security administration

V. GEORGIAN RELIGION TITLES

1. Catholicos-Patriarch - head of Georgian apostolic ortodox church, like pope...

2. Mtavarepiskoposi - head of episcophate
3. Mitropolit - head of episcophate cathedrall
4. Episkoposi - episcoph
5. Dekanozi - head of some chucrh
6. Diakvani - minor prist
7. Mgvdeli -prist
8. Ugumeni - head of monastry
9. Beri - monk

brilliant information we can use it as well
very good to see GEORGIAN MILITARY groupes which is cool
we can add to this llist the Darbazi which is royal court

[JERUSALEM]

This is excellent!

I can't wait for this to be ready

I'd like top play with more Orthodox factions (I'm Orthodox myself)

good to see u brother of the same faith

we shall lobby for other Orthodox factions

especially for Serbia , Bulgaria and Trebizond Empire

[Tadzreuli]

ah, I forgot Darbazi.... sorry

I updated my post.

[Tadzreuli]

HISTORY

the most importent historical persons

about Georgian roayal family of Bagrationi read here brief history of dinasty:

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Georgia/georgia.htm

1) Bagrat III Bagrationi, first king of united Georgian kingdom (from 975 -1001 Princeps of Kartli and 1001 - 1014 as king). King Bagrat III expelled the Turks from the Eastern provinces, threw off his allegience to Constantinople and established his rule over the Abkhazis, Kartvelians, Ranians, Kakhetians and the Armenians, unifying all Georgia

2) David IV Bagrationi - "Agmashenebeli" the Builder) - 1089 - 1125. King of the Abkhazis, Kartvelians, Ranians, Kakhetians and the Armenians. b. 1073, only son of the Most High King Giorgi II Sevastosi, King of the Abkhazis and Kartvelians. Succeeded on the death of his father, 1089. He threw off alliegience to Trebizond, abandoned Byzantine titles, extinguished the independence of Kakheti in 1105 and unified all Georgia from the Black Sea to the foothills of Daghestan. Expelled the Turks from Somkheti in 1110, Tao and Klarjeti in 1116 and conquered Shirvan in 1117, Ispir and Ani in 1124. He was the first of his line to be styled "by the will of our Lord". Reconquered Tiflis and made it his capital, the city having been in Islamic hands for nearly four hundred years. m. (first) (div. 1107) H.M. The Most High Queen Rusudan, an Armenian princess. m. (second) H.M. The Most High Queen Gurandukt, daughter of Atraka, Prince of the Qipchaqs. He d. at Tiflis, 24th January 1125 (bur. St George's Cathedral, Gelati).

3) George III (d. March 27, 1184), of the Bagrationi dynasty, was king of Georgia from 1156 to 1184. His reign, and that of Tamar, are seen as the 'golden age' of Georgian history, the era of empire, diplomatic success, military triumphs, great learning, cultural, spiritual, and artistic flowering.


4) Quin Tamar the Great (Bagrationi), 1184-1210, read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamar_of_Georgia

5) Giorgi IV Lasha (1192-1223) from the House of Bagrationi, was king of Georgia in 1213-1223. son of Queen Tamar and David Soslani, he was declared as a coregent by his mother in 1207. He continued Tamar’s policy of strengthening of the Georgia feudal state. He put down the revolts in neighbouring Muslim vassal states in the 1210s and began preparations for a large-scale campaign against Jerusalem to support the Crusaders in 1220. However, the Mongol approach to the Georgian borders made the Crusade plan unrealizable. The first Mongol attacks were repulsed in 1221-1222. However, Georgians suffered heavy losses in this war and the King himself was severely wounded. As a result Lasha Giorgi became severely ill and died at the age of 31. He was succeeded by his sister Rusudan.


6) George V, the “Brilliant” (born 1286 or 1289 – died 1346) was King of Georgia from 1299 to 1302 and again from 1314 until his death. A flexible and far-sighted politician, he recovered Georgia from a century-long Mongol domination, and restored most of the country’s previous strength and prosperity.

7) Bagrat V, “the Great” Bagrationi (died 1393), was the son of the Georgian king Davit IX with whom he was co-ruler from 1355, and became king after the death of his father in 1360. A fair and popular ruler, also known as a perfect soldier, he was dubbed as “Bagrat the Great” by his multiethnic subjects. The Trapezuntine chronicler Michael Panaretos, who knew the king personally, calls him a “prominent and victorious general”. Early in his reign, the country was visited again by the Black Death which took the life of Bagrat’s first wife, Helena in 1366. Later he was an ally of the khan of Golden Horde, Tokhtamysh in his war with Timur (also known as Tamerlane). In late autumn 1386, a huge army of Timur attacked Georgia. Tbilisi was besieged and taken on November 22 1386 after a fierce fight. The city was pillaged and Bagrat V and his family were imprisoned. Taking advantage of this disaster, the royal vassal Duke Alexander of Imereti proclaimed himself an independent ruler and was crowned king of Imereti at the Gelati Monastery in 1387. In order to secure his release, Bagrat V agreed to become Muslim. Timur agreed to free Bagrat and sent him with the troops of 20,000 Mongols back to Georgia. However, with the secret aid from Bagrat, his son George completely destroyed a Mongol army and released the king. In the spring of 1387, Timur again invaded Georgia but could not force Georgians to submission. News from Persia (that had started revolt during the absence of Timur) and, more importantly from Azerbaijan (approach of Tokhtamish) forced Timur to leave the country. In 1389, on the death of Alexander of Imereti, Bagrat was able to reduce his successor to a vassal duke again.
Bagrat V died in 1393 leaving the throne to his son George.

8) George VII (died 1405 or 1407) was king of Georgia from 1393 to 1407 (alternatively, from 1395 to 1405). George was the son of the king Bagrat V and his first wife Helena of Trebizond (died of bubonic plague, 1366). In November 1386, King Bagrat was defeated and taken prisoner by the Mongol warlord Timur Leng. Prince George organized a successful resistance to the next Mongol incursion and released his father, who appointed him as joint ruler in 1369. In 1393, Bagrat died and George assumed full royal powers. He spent most of his reign fighting Timur who led seven more expeditions against the stubborn Georgian kingdom from 1387 to 1403 leaving the country in ruins. Finally, in 1403 George had to make peace with the fierce enemy recognising Timur as a suzerain and paying him tribute, but retaining the right to be crowned as a Christian monarch. He was killed in battle against the Turkmen nomads, apparently of the Kara Koyunlu clan.

9) Shota Rustaveli (Georgian: შოთა რუსთაველი), was a Georgian poet of the 12th century, considered by many to be one of the greatest representatives of the literature of the medieval world. He is author of the literary work The Knight in the Panther's Skin ("Vepkhistqaosani" in Georgian), the Georgian national epic poem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shota_Rustaveli

10) Beka Opizari - Georgian artist in XII c.
11) Konstantine Arsakidze - Georgian architect, built the great cathedral Svetitskhoveli in Mtskheta in 1014-1027.
12) George Mtsatsmindeli - Georgian scolar and theologist in Xi-XII c.
13) Arsen Ikaltoeli - Georgian scolar and historyan, foundet high scool and academy in Gelati and in Ikalto in 1100-1126 ad.
14) Grigol Bakurianisdze - Georgian general, great domestic of Byzantines army in XI c.
15) David Soslani - husbend of quin Tamar, famouse general, who meneged Georgian army in hes greates victory in battle of Basiani (1202) and battle of Shamkor (1195) against Rum Sultan Rukn'ad Din and against Atabag of Adarbadagan.

[Tadzreuli]

HISTORY

historycal events

1) 1001- unificed Georgia by Bagrat III Bagrationi.
2) 1089-1125, most greatest political figure in Georgian history - David IV Bagrationi's "the Builder" reighn.

3) 1121 ad, 12 august - The Battle of Didgori was fought between the Georgia and Seljuk armies at the place of Didgori sixteen kilometers northwest of Tbilisi, the capital of Georgia, on August 12, 1121. Known in the Georgian history as the Miraculous Victory (ძლევაჲ საკვირველი, dzlevay sakvirveli), it is generally considered as the greatest military victory of Georgian arms.

King David the Builder’s appeal to his warriors just before the battle (according to the French knight and historian, Galterius):

"...Soldiers of Christ! If we fight with abandon, defending the faith of our Lord, we shall not only overcome countless servants of Satan, but the Devil himself. I will only advise you one thing that will add to our honor and our profit. And raising our hands to Heaven we will all swear to our Lord that in the name of love to Him, we will rather die in the battlefield than run....”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Didgori

4) 1203 ad - The Battle of Basian was fought between the Georgians and the Seljuk Turks of Rüm at the place of Basian, 60 kilometers northeast of the city of Erzurum (in modern Turkey) in 1203. Alarmed by the Georgia advances, Sultan Rukn ad-Din of Rüm allied himself with the neighbouring Seljuk rulers and marched to the southwestern borders of the Georgian Kingdom. Queen Tamar of Georgia sent her husband David Soslani with approximately 90,000 men to meet the enemy in the Basian region. The Georgian vanguard repelled the Seljuks desperate attacks and counterattacked successfully, but had to retreat being outnumbered threefold by the Sultan's reserve forces. Ultimately, the Georgian main forces repulsed Rukn ad-Din's offensive and crushed him decisively. Both sides lost several thousand men killed and wounded. The Sultan himself fled to Erzurum.

5) 1195 ad - battle of Shamkor , see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shamkor

6) 1124 ad, Georgian king David IV ocupied Armenian capital Ani and David became as Armenian king too.

7) 1204 ad, Georgian army invided in Byzantine lands and capture citys Trabizond, Cerasunt, Cotyora, Sinope and all south-east branch of Black sea. here quin Tamar the Great established vassal state of Georgia - Trabizond Empire under rulle her cousine - Alexius Comnen.

8) 1210 ad, Georgian army invided in north Iran and captured a lot of castles and citys - Marand, Tabriz, Ardebil, Kazvin, Zenjan. this lands was incorporated in Georgian kingdom.

9) 1220 ad, firts the time the Mongols invided in Georgian empire and refused plan of George IV Lasha to re-conquer holy land and Jerusalem.

10) 1225 ad, The battle of Garni (or Garnisi) was fought between Georgians (numbering, according to the sources, some 60,000 men) and Khwarazmians (numbering, it was said, 200,000, but likely much less); the invaders were lead by Jalal ad-Din Mingburnu, the desperate last sultan of the Khwarezmid Empire who, driven from his realm by the Mongols, was trying to recapture it. Having his request of an alliance being rejected by the Georgians, he attacked them. In the battle at Garni Georgia was heavily defeated; as a result the royal court with Queen Rusudan (1223-1245) moved to Kutaisi and the country was left exposed to subsequent Mongol aggression.

11) 1226 ad, Tbilisi fallen under Jalal ad-Din Mingburnu attack. 100 000 christian Georgians killed by Khvarazmians for religiouse motive.

12) 1242 ad, Georgia became vassal of Mongols.
13) 1329 ad, king George V Bagrationi "the Briliant" re-united Georgia, defeated Ilkhanids and Georgia retrive old power and world prestige.
14) 1336 ad, in Tbilisi established episcopate of roman catholic church.

15) 1386-1403 ad, Tamerlan's invasions in Georgia. The peace treaty signed in 1403.

16) 1466 ad, Georgian kingdoms divided to 4 state: Kingdom of Imereti, Kingdom of Kartli, Kingdom of Kakheti and Princilaity of Satskhe.


_____________________________

Beka and Jerusalem, correct me, if I wrote some mistakes.

[Tadzreuli]

now I give you my new version of Tadzreuli unit and new description:



"Tadzreuli, on the Georgian verbatim indicates - "knight-templar". These are soldier, the servant of the holy apostolic church of Georgia. Georgian church as one of the rich classes in XII-XV c. centuries in the Georgian reign, subordinated the big enough number of small nobles – aznaurs, free mens and peasants. The servants of the church of aznaury protected church and faith, correctly served the tsar and the native land. Gradually, in the highly developed feudal society of Georgia, in XII-XIII c. explosives, tadzreuli became military class. To tadzreuli elite infantrymen by the Georgian of army, the knights of the honors, always ready life to return for the faith, the native land and for the tsar. They the well trained and well equipped, very experienced soldiers, strong by spirit, without are sorrowful to the enemies of Georgia and Christianity, but they are virtuous to the simple people, them all love and respect on this, and enemies feel trembling before their persistent view."

[Rex Armeniae]

Where do you find all that stuff... its darn hard to find so much about armenian medieval soldiers... sigh

[Beka]

He does not find them he paints them, based on historic facts

[Tadzreuli]

Where do you find all that stuff... its darn hard to find so much about armenian medieval soldiers... sigh

heh , Im artits frend, don't worry ...

[Tadzreuli]

Where do you find all that stuff... its darn hard to find so much about armenian medieval soldiers... sigh

and, I ask you, plz write about Armenian stuff and about Armenian soldiers in the Armenian topic, NOT here.

[Rex Armeniae]

Well have I written anything about armenian soldiers or anything? NO I HAVENT... need to use CAPS?

so I ask you, use your brain before you ask people things. plz

[Tadzreuli]

so I ask you, use your brain before you ask people things. plz

be correct men and stop this fluds !

[Tadzreuli]

now, I updated my description of units, see post #4

[Rex Armeniae]

be correct men and stop this fluds !

tell me how to be a correct men...:hmmm: what do u mean by correct men?
well lol, tell me that and I'll stop the fluds!