Faction Names

[Antagonist]

This is an issue which has been discussed before but I'd like to get it finalised. As finneys pointed out in one of the threads, the policy of faction names is kind of inconsistent - some have names in national languages while others are anglicized etc. We really need to get a consistent policy on this.

Additionally there is the issue that if we do go for "local" names, in many cases there is more then one possible "correct" name based on variations of spelling, dialect, orthography etc. In these situations we'll likely just have to make a decision, possibly based on a vote.

So I'd like to hear people's views on what they think the policy should be. Should we use Modern English names, Modern names in the local language, "anglicizations" of the old name, or try to get as accurately as possible the original name for the faction in their own language?

Personally I favour the latter idea as being closest to accuracy, but it has it's issues, both academic (different ideas about what it should be and spelling etc.) and practical (there is an argument that too much old language can intimidate players and turn them off the mod) This second issue can be admirably addressed (IMO) by having original names and then translating them in brackets for things like units and buildings, but we can't really do that for the actual Faction Name.

Antagonist

[finneys13]

Another question is should the region and city names be in Modern English, Modern Native Language or as close to the original language as possible?

Personally I would like the factions in their original languages, as close as possible, I don't think it is that much bother for a new player, once there are good descriptions with the English name of the faction to get them started, most names are recognisable enough.

I think the Picts are the only faction that we would have trouble getting a name for, but we can improvise there. Also the Carolingian Empire would probably have to be in Latin, as it was so multilingual, we can't pick one language.

[Sanskrit_Bandit]

id vote for modern native, although i would support the last option as well, however it'd be extremely hard to implement for certain factions, I'm thinking of the Slavic ones here. We have no written documents from among the northern Slavs in their own language from this period,and I'm not sure how early on the glagolitic alphabet was used either.

[Antagonist]

id vote for modern native, although i would support the last option as well, however it'd be extremely hard to implement for certain factions, I'm thinking of the Slavic ones here. We have no written documents from among the northern Slavs in their own language from this period,and I'm not sure how early on the glagolitic alphabet was used either.

The issue is really "native languages v. English" in a nutshell. It would be nice to have accurate language from the period where available, but whenever that's not possible a more modern equivalent can be used.

Antagonist

[finneys13]

And what about the region and city names, it's not just faction names?

[Athokas]

Native would be nicest IMO. If we can't find the native, we just use the closest we can find

[Beiss]

Yeah. How about, let's aim for the native names and settle for less if we have to. We should at least have the ambition to get the names right. If we don't succeed, well, too bad.

[Kahju]

Native names are the best, and if some weakling is afraid of them, so what? It's not like you are going to lose sales or anything.

[GodlyAvatar]

Afraid of names? Cool, irrational fear of names! :p

Sales? THe closest to that is download numbers.

Back on topic, I really think we should aim for the native names, as said already.

[Lord Cunami]

I'm eagerly awaiting your mod and I would like to see native names as well.
It makes the game more immersive and the experience more real and engaging.

[Manuel Komnenos]

Native names ofcourse, this mod is realistic, so the names must be historical. For Roman Empire, as I stated in my thread - Basilea ton Rhomaion.

[Antagonist]

Well, the consensus seems pretty clear, not sure if it's worth the trouble putting it to a vote. Could people mention faction names that need to be translated?

Antagonist

[Kahju]

Well, the consensus seems pretty clear, not sure if it's worth the trouble putting it to a vote. Could people mention faction names that need to be translated?

Antagonist

Tavastians, for one.

"Tavastia" is Häme in Finnish, and "tavastians" is hämäläiset.

[Beiss]

Where does the name "Tavastia" come from anyway? And would "Häme" be accurate for the time period? Who called them "Häme"? They themselves, or someone else?

[Kahju]

Where does the name "Tavastia" come from anyway? And would "Häme" be accurate for the time period? Who called them "Häme"? They themselves, or someone else?

I don't know the exact etymology and I couldn't find one, but as far as I know the word Tavastia is derived from Swedish Tavastland - the land of the tavasts. No idea where "tavast" comes from, though. The Finnish word Häme is, according to the most widely-accepted theory, derived from the baltic word zeme, which roughly means "land". Therefore, "Häme" shares the etymological roots of the words "Suomi" (Finland) and "Saame" (Sami).

The word is probably quite old. I've read some linguistic stuff concerning this, but I can't remember any details. In any case, It would have most definitely existed in the viking age. We don't have any hard evidence concerning the usage of the word, but it is the most probable option - not that we have much options, anyway.

[Beiss]

Interesting. Strange how the "z" became "h" and also "s"... hehe. Well, sounds good enough to me.

[Kahju]

Interesting. Strange how the "z" became "h" and also "s"... hehe. Well, sounds good enough to me.

There were various phases, of course. This is how they say it went:

"zeme" <- "sheme" <- "shäme" -> Häme <- "shaame" -> Saami <- "Soomi" <- "Suomi"

[finneys13]

These three should have Latin names, I'm no Latin expert, so grammar may be wrong:

Asturias -> Asturicum
Carolingian Empire -> Francorum or Imperium Francorum or Imperium Carolus/Carolum (a choice here, like the last one personally)
Lombards -> Langobardi

In native tongues:

Saxons -> Sachsen - seems to be an old word
Brittany -> Breizh - can be checked
Wessex -> West-Seaxna
Northumbria -> Northumbria - the same by the looks of it
Dál Riada -> Dál Riada
Gwynedd -> Gwynedd
Munster -> Muma

And then we have the Picts:

The name by which the Picts called themselves is unknown. The Greek word Πικτοί (Latin Picti) first appears in a panegyric written by Eumenius in AD 297 and is taken to mean "painted or tattooed people" (Latin pingere "paint"). This may, however, be due to early folk etymology and the term likely has a Celtic origin, perhaps Pehta, Peihta (meaning "fighters").[1] The Gaels of Ireland and Dál Riata called the Picts Cruithne, (Old Irish cru(i)then-túath), presumably from Proto-Celtic *kwriteno-toutā. There were also people referred to as Cruithne in Ulster, in particular the kings of Dál nAraidi.[2] The Britons (later the Welsh and Cornish) in the south knew them, in the P-Celtic form of "Cruithne", as Prydyn; the terms "Britain" and "Briton" come from the same root.[3] Their Old English name gave the modern Scots form Pechts.[4]

I guess we want Asturias instead of the Kingdom of Asturias, etc.

Those names should be okay for the West, if any mistakes, say so.

[Antagonist]

Seems okay although I'm not an expert either. Personally I'd be against giving the names "titles" (Kingdom of etc.) with the exceptions of Franks and Romans etc.

The Picts are the big problem here certainly, we have commonly-used names from cultures hostile to them (the Romans and the Gaels) and the Britons, who they probably weren't on the best terms with either. I doubt there is really an answer here (ATW just gave up and called them Picts for example, and we have revised the names of others several times for the best accuracy) I'd probably go with Pehta or Peihta, but it's just preference really, Academia seems to be at a total loss.

Antagonist

[NikeBG]

One question, btw: Would all names be written on the Latin alphabet? Or, f.e., "Basilea ton Rhomaion" would be written in Greek etc.?