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Thread: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

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    Lord Condormanius's Avatar Artifex
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    Default NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    This thread will be used to discuss the different aspects of the Serbian faction. This post is only a placeholder and will be updated.
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

  2. #2

    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    This is the faction that i really want to see and will play first.

    Just a few questions i have.

    How many regions will Serbia begin with? Secondly, What will be their unit Composition? Thirdly, will you give the Serbs a Patriarch trait to one of their bishops either as an anciliary or as a trait?

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    Lord Condormanius's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadking View Post
    This is the faction that i really want to see and will play first.

    Just a few questions i have.

    How many regions will Serbia begin with? Secondly, What will be their unit Composition? Thirdly, will you give the Serbs a Patriarch trait to one of their bishops either as an anciliary or as a trait?
    1. Wow! um...let's see. They will probably begin with only one region, Raska (settlement is Kotor) Maybe two, if we decide to give them Ragussa. They are surrounded by several rebel regions and wil have plenty of options...likely facing off with Hungary, Venice, and The Byz. They would probably due best to take Sarjeveo in the north first.

    2. Since they have recently been included in the faction list, this is not concrete as of yet. Generally speaking, they will likely have all of the Serbian Merc units, as well as a mix of some Russian/Polish types and some Byzantine types. Probably a lot of Cavalry, spears, and javelin types...heavy cavalry and and heavy infantry in the late game.

    3. The trait will be in the game, but it is linked to territories (i.e. Patriarch of Constantinople, P. of Jerusalem, etc.).

    Serbia is in a tough spot. They will be Orthodox, but there will be a large Catholic population as well...not to mention those pesky crusaders always trampling across your lands.

    LC
    Last edited by Lord Condormanius; March 17, 2007 at 03:08 AM.
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

  4. #4

    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Sounds excellent. The more i hear the more trust you will do a good job.

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    Lord Condormanius's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadking View Post
    Sounds excellent. The more i hear the more trust you will do a good job.

    ..it's funny...I started making this mod because I wanted an Irish faction (it expanded into this project), but the more I look at this Serbian faction...they look pretty cool (on paper, they aren't reasy to play yet).

    Thanks again for your interest.

    LC
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

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    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    is your goal historical accuracy or gameplay?
    if it is historical accuracy than you shouldnt give ragusa to duklja (as starting region) because ragusa was never in its long history controlled by dukljans or serbs (or any other faction -except byzant (early period) being vassals of venice for a short time).
    but if you think that ballance is more important, than you might do that to make duklja stronger.
    and duklja is a south slavic state (like hum, and pagania), but it is not entierly correct to call it serbia. raska was s proto-serbian state and not duklja.
    and you know that it is absurd to talk about idea of national identity in early medieval period (and especially in the balkans).

  7. #7

    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Hello Lord Cordomanius...nice looking mod.

    About Serbia, maybe you should PM DukeofSerbia.He is currently making a mod heavily focused on Serbia.He was also history researcher for MTWR.He might help you when it comes about unit names, regions etc...anyway, good luck with mod and keep up good work *thumbsup*
    Fighting with the Wisdom, the Bosnian Kingdom

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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    is your goal historical accuracy or gameplay?
    if it is historical accuracy than you shouldnt give ragusa to duklja (as starting region) because ragusa was never in its long history controlled by dukljans or serbs (or any other faction -except byzant (early period) being vassals of venice for a short time).
    but if you think that ballance is more important, than you might do that to make duklja stronger.
    and duklja is a south slavic state (like hum, and pagania), but it is not entierly correct to call it serbia. raska was s proto-serbian state and not duklja.
    and you know that it is absurd to talk about idea of national identity in early medieval period (and especially in the balkans).
    Mihailo Voislav captured Ragussa in 1077. So, yes they did.

    LC
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

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    Lord Condormanius's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazi Husrev-Beg View Post
    Hello Lord Cordomanius...nice looking mod.

    About Serbia, maybe you should PM DukeofSerbia.He is currently making a mod heavily focused on Serbia.He was also history researcher for MTWR.He might help you when it comes about unit names, regions etc...anyway, good luck with mod and keep up good work *thumbsup*
    Perhaps I will contact him. Thanks fo the info.

    LC
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    and duklja is a south slavic state (like hum, and pagania), but it is not entierly correct to call it serbia. raska was s proto-serbian state and not duklja.
    Under Mihailo Voislav, Duklja was also known as the Kingdom of Serbia. The Pope had given him the title "Ruler of Tribals and Serbs".

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    and you know that it is absurd to talk about idea of national identity in early medieval period (and especially in the balkans).
    Although nationality had not developed to anywhere near its present state, I don't think I would say the idea is absurd.

    LC
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

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    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Condormanius View Post
    Mihailo Voislav captured Ragussa in 1077. So, yes they did.

    LC
    no he didnt !
    i dont know where you got this (please write source). Mihajlo Vojislav controlled Ston peninsula but never the city Dubrovnik/Ragusa itself.

    about nations in this period in balkans thats "slippery terrain". not even our best historians arent sure.... of course that many serbs lived in his kingdom but allso large proportion of people were just "slavs".
    anyway the pope Gregorius VII calls him (Mihajlo) "King of the Slavs".
    but it is your mod do as you wish.i dont want a fight over this subject, but since im able to read serbian and croatian (and even bosnian and montenegrian -ha ha ha ha) i have acces to more and better sources.

    you should ask DukeofSerbia about this faction. he could help you.

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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    no he didnt !
    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    i dont know where you got this (please write source). Mihajlo Vojislav controlled Ston peninsula but never the city Dubrovnik/Ragusa itself.

    about nations in this period in balkans thats "slippery terrain". not even our best historians arent sure.... of course that many serbs lived in his kingdom but allso large proportion of people were just "slavs".
    anyway the pope Gregorius VII calls him (Mihajlo) "King of the Slavs".
    but it is your mod do as you wish.


    Here is a quote (let me see if I can find the actual source):

    "In early 1077, the Serbian King Mihailo from the House of Voislav assaulted the Byzantine enclave of Ragusa and conquered it. It became the ecclesiastical center of the Kingdom of Duklja, but Mihailo's heir, King Constantine Bodin of the same House of Voislav of Duklja and Dalmatia lost it as it was annexed by the Normans from the Kingdom of Two Sicilies. King Bodin managed to reconquer it soon, and build a fortress in it which became known as the Tower of Constantine Bodin."

    This one is from Wikipedia (I don't like Wikipedia much, but it helps in a pinch):

    "In 1077 Mihailo Voislav captured Ragusa. The same year he was crowned King of Slavs by emissaries of Pope Gregory VII, accepting the supreme rule of the Papacy. Mihailo soon raised the little Church of Saint Michael in Ston - as a component part of his Royal seat, where he depicted himself with a Papal crown on a fresco. His realm was known as the Kingdom of Serbia, and Mihailo wore the title Ruler of Tribals and Serbs . . . . The highest faction in his Kingdom was the Bishopric of Ragusa . . . . Throughout the 11th century Doclea's population were classified as being Serbs."

    "According to the "Chronicle of Pop Dukljanin" king Bodin (1081 – 1101) waged war against Ragusa and occupied it because his rivals in the dynastic struggles in Duklja fled to it for protection. Dubrovnik soon seceded from the authority of Duklja and made great progress in its development."

    -from http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/chapter4.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    i dont want a fight over this subject , but since im able to read serbian and croatian (and even bosnian and montenegrian -ha ha ha ha) i have acces to more and better sources.


    I must admit that I am not primarily a historian of the Balkans. I do, however, have some colleagues who are. I will run this information past them, when I get a chance. But, I must also say that I have seen the same or similar information in several different places.

    I also do not want to (and will not) fight about this subject. Although I have to admit that your approach to this subject is a positive one and I do appreciate your input. Discussion is the purpose of this forum. This is how we all learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    you should ask DukeofSerbia about this faction. he could help you.
    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post


    I have already sent a PM to him, asking for help. He has not yet responded.

    LC
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

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    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    -about nationality of "old" dukljans. this is actually irrelevant for this mod. so maybe you could skip the entire debate and leave things as they are. you know my opinion. but you will allso find that we on balcan dissagree about this (and many other questions) -meaning srebs will tell that they were serbs, montenegrians that they were montenegrians, and so on ... there is too much politics in our historiography.

    but this about dubrovnik/ragusa requires a debate.
    -"chroniche of pop dukljanin" is a fairy tale. it has a huge amount of incorrect information. because it was not written as historical work but as a propaganda for Voislavovići dinasty. its sole purpose is to give a historical background for ruling elite in Duklja, even as it means falsifying, forgeing and manipulating. no serious historian (cor or serb) takes it seriously any more.
    examples: all croatian rulers names are wrong (Selimir, Svetopelek -this guys never existed -Svetopelek is actally Svatopolk of moravia that lived 870-894- and had nothing to do with cro. and the legend that cro king zvonimir was killed by his own pople is allso not true. dukljans says that he was killed because he wanted croats to join the crusade and cro dissagreed, but there is a problem- zvonimir died in 1089 -before the first crusade, of natural reasons).
    - he allso called hungarian leader Arpad -Atilla showing total lack of knowledge
    -but this is only "tip of the iceberg"-if you need more examples i can provide them.

    heres the whole cronicle -
    pop dulkjanin chronicle -unfortunatley not in english (sorry)
    http://www.montenegrina.net/pages/pa..._redakcija.htm
    http://www.montenegrina.net/pages/pa..._redakcija.htm

    if you can read latin-
    http://www.montenegrina.net/pages/pa..._latinskom.htm

    and Vojislav did capture byz strategos from Ragusa (but outside the city walls), maybe that got you confused.
    - and wiki is crap. i mean there is a lot of usefoul info, but parts about balcan history are awfoul. ive seen so maly mistakes that it made me sick....

    BUT--
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihailo_Voislav
    see -no mentions of Duklja occupying Ragusa/Dubrovnik. in this example wiki si right.
    blah, blah blah.... He left us St. Michael's Church in Ston, north of Dubrovnik, a small church following mostly an early Byzantine style, which contains the oldest known fresco portrait of a Balkan Slavic ruler

    from http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/chapter4.htm -dont use this. a lot of mistakes.
    (never existed-THE DIET OF DUVNO 753 A.D. or this Budimir guy -no such pearson, or this "Croatian national diet that in all probability was held on the plain of Duvno in the heart of his state." - based in wrong translation, or this "Croatian Duklja" - ha ha ha -well im a croatian patriot but this is just too much , oooo i can write pages of corrections ) -and you will give Dukeof Serbia a heart attack . ha ha ha ha
    Last edited by Matthæus; March 25, 2007 at 02:38 PM.

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    Lord Condormanius's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    matko-

    We obviously have conflicting information. I will run it past some of my colleagues in the History Department and see what they have to say about this.

    and Vojislav did capture byz strategos from Ragusa (but outside the city walls), maybe that got you confused.
    I am not confused. I know exactly what I am talking about and the references I have pointed to (regardless of whether or not you think they are correct) support what I have said.

    blah, blah blah....
    What is this?
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

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    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    i was thinking about the name... and this is the best.
    name the faction Duklja (Zeta).
    zeta=second name of the state used in XII century.
    and then in description you can write that it was inhabited by the Slavs, of wich large part were Serbs (montenegrians will dissagree).

    i will check my sources again... maybe im wrong, but i havent encountered any information about Mihajlo controlling Dubrovnik. hopefully we will sort things out.

    in the meantime heres something to read
    http://www.montenegrina.net/pages/pa...slavljevic.htm
    again no sign of controlling Dubrovnik.
    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MONTENEGRO.htm
    Last edited by Matthæus; March 26, 2007 at 12:29 PM.

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    Sir Nicholas Altman's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Well I wanted to say I support matko. Think it would be best if you renamed the country in Raška what is serb proto medieval state. Montenegro these days holds Duklja as there proto state.
    But I think it would be best if you changed Serbia with Croatia and gave us a chance to save our freedom against Hungary which was lost 1102.
    So 1080 we would have 22 years of consolidation and hope that king Dmitar Zvonimir would have a proper heir!
    BTW is there a download?
    When will this mod be avalible for download?

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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Nicholas Altman View Post
    Well I wanted to say I support matko. Think it would be best if you renamed the country in Raška what is serb proto medieval state. Montenegro these days holds Duklja as there proto state.
    i agree with the first part, Lord Condormanius if you want a Serbs as a nation to be represented, then you need Raška/Serbia not Dukja in your mod. and it will make your life easyier because there is a lot more information about Raška/Serbia.
    for instance you will have serious problems with Dukljan units (lack of sources).
    And Duklja is gone in the 12. th century while Serbia lasts to 1459.

    Sir Nicholas Altman- if you want Croatian faction check "Medieval: Wraith of the Norseman" mod. they have cro faction and im cro historian/advisor.

    **edited**
    to Lord Condormanius
    i just bought a book:TOMISLAV RAUKAR: HRVATSKO SREDNJEVJEKOVLJE - its about croatia in medieval times but includes some maps where western borders of Duklja are visiable

    about the author:
    http://www.hazu.hr/Akademici/TRaukar_biogr.html

    map 1: second half of 11. century


    dukljanska država= dukljan state
    i put a red circle around dubrovnik/ragusa. note the city is not part of duklja.
    but i will try to find more info so we can solve this once for all.

    and sources you quoted in your post above were from wiki- here- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duklja
    - i myself found wiki to be very unreliable, and their primary sources are- Ljetopis popa dukljanina, and serbian historian Vladimir Ćorović - the guy known to be very unobjective.

    from http://www.glosk.com/HR/Hum/125508/p...a/25983_en.htm

    Doclea

    Duklja was a Slavic medieval state with hereditary lands roughly encompassing the territories of the Zeta River, Skadar Lake and the Boka bay and bordering with Travunia at Kotor. Duklja was at first a semi-independent part of the Grand Principality (Zhupanate) of Rascia (Raška) which was a vassal of the Eastern Roman Empire and later directly under Byzantine suzerainty until it won its independence in the mid-11th century, ruled by the House of Voislav (Vojislavljević). After a large fall, Doclea was incorporated into the unified Serbian state, where it remained until its last remains' falling to Ottoman hands. Its main cities were:

    * Gradac
    * Novi Grad
    * Lontodoclea

    Duklja's capitals were:

    * Ston
    * Skadar

    Duklja was split into županates:

    * Lusca
    * Podlugiae
    * Gorsca
    * Cuceva with Budva
    * Cupelnich
    * Obliquus
    * Prapatna (between today's Bar and Ulcinj)
    * Cermenica
    * Gripuli

    Continental Doclea, or Submontana (Podgoria), which was between the rivers of Rama and Morača, was consisted of:

    * Onogost
    * Moratia,
    * Comerniza
    * Piva
    * Gerico
    * Netusini
    * Guisemo
    * Com
    * Debreca
    * Neretva
    * Rama.

    ---about dubrovnik.

    Dubrovnik is an old city on the Adriatic Sea coast in the extreme south of Croatia. It was founded by joining two small towns: Laus, a town on a small island off the southern Dalmatian coast, which provided shelter for the Italic refugees from the nearby city of Epidaurum and Dubrava, a settlement of Slavic immigrants at the foot of the forested Srd hill. According to a popular myth presented through the legendary Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja from 1171-1196, Dubrovnik was raised by King Bella, son of King Caslav of Klonimir of the House of Vlastimir. -one more proof of "relability" of Pop Dukljanin- this is a complete nonsence - you can check if you want for yourself
    Last edited by Matthæus; March 28, 2007 at 10:07 AM.

  18. #18
    Lord Condormanius's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post

    map 1: second half of 11. century


    dukljanska država= dukljan state
    i put a red circle around dubrovnik/ragusa. note the city is not part of duklja.
    but i will try to find more info so we can solve this once for all.

    I'm getting a headache trying to figure out what you're saying. On this map, Dubrovnik is within the borders of Dukljanska Država...
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

  19. #19
    Lord Condormanius's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Nicholas Altman View Post
    Well I wanted to say I support matko. Think it would be best if you renamed the country in Raška what is serb proto medieval state. Montenegro these days holds Duklja as there proto state.
    But I think it would be best if you changed Serbia with Croatia and gave us a chance to save our freedom against Hungary which was lost 1102.
    So 1080 we would have 22 years of consolidation and hope that king Dmitar Zvonimir would have a proper heir!
    BTW is there a download?
    When will this mod be avalible for download?
    We'll try and sort this mess out...

    There is no download yet. We're making progress and hope to have something relatively soon.

    LC
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

  20. #20
    Sir Nicholas Altman's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: NEW FACTION: Duklja (SERBIA)

    True on the map Dubrovnik is part of the greatar Dukljankska država but not of small Duklja that equlis todays Montenegro.
    Well hope you will sort this out but defenetly take Raška name for the Serbs.

    So Wrath of the Norsmen has Croatia, ay? Ludilo! Odmah ću ga probat!
    Is the mod any good' I just tryed Road to Jeruzalem and it's preety good. New provinces, skins, titles for the generals, much harder. Must confess I like it.

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