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Thread: Realistic ranges...................

  1. #1
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Realistic ranges...................

    I have gone through the trouble of seeking out info on the realistic ranges of bows and firearms, large and small, throughout this time period. i have modified the projectiles and unit files to match and "WOW". Battle open up the AI certainly responds better and seems to get pissed at being bombarded or they run for cover or out of range. Paybacks for the this are also harsh as artillery units duel it out at long range, to the finish cavalry can't wait to throw its hand in and in sufficient numbers gets the job done enough that the infantry doesn't really have to. It plays out better on my severely outdated video card as well as units are not all bunched up. This game uses much more of the battlefield as well making me wish they were twice the size they are now or even three times. I still dislike the general lack of villages in battles but I guess this goes up as farmlands are improved.
    Ranged units still close on each other unless they are in skirmish mode but this invokes the wrath of the cavalry which can't wait the eat up the skirmishers for being needled up. I like it much better. When the cavalry moves the infantry follows which leads to a huge melee that I can only usually hang on the perifery of, but, 'WOW'. Much more realistic. Definitely not into the minimalist ranges anymore.

    I am still, however, on Beta4 as I don't want to keep modifying would like to finish a game. I am also waiting for Patch 2 and my new and improved 512mb video card.

    Rock on, People!
    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 08, 2007 at 02:59 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Why don't you post your edited file with ranges or post the text so we can try it out, also?

    Thanks!

  3. #3
    Lopus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Interesting Condottiere SOG, can you post it for testing?

  4. #4
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Icon11 Re: Realistic ranges...................

    sure......

    here is the link.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=1235

    enjoy!

    sicilian muslim archer range should be 240m as they used horn and sinew recurve bows

    Oh. I gave all the men in my game 2hp to inlude for wound factor. You'll notice that bows do 2hp damage and firearms 3hp damage. A little more realistic IMO. People still die in great numbers. Soon I will try upping this to 5hp per person. Bows will do 3hp, crossbows 5hp and firearms 7 hp damage. i believe that this is the secret to longer lasting battles and unit experience tells well with these standards!
    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 08, 2007 at 08:53 PM. Reason: update

  5. #5
    Lopus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Does that work for TLR 1.9 beta 5 as well?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Found some interesting information about official FITA (International Archery Federation) world records for flight (distance) archery as of 2006. Might come in useful for comparing distances of various types of bows. (taken from http://www.usarchery.org/files/06_Fl...ar_Records.pdf)

    Distance Ö Bow type
    in meters

    1871.84 Ö Crossbow
    1854.40 Ö Unlimited Footbow
    1410.87 Ö Footbow
    1222.01 Ö Unlimited Recurve
    1207.39 Ö Unlimited Compound
    1103.03 Ö 33kg Compound
    1076.60 Ö 40kg (88.2lb) (doesn't list type?)
    1062.79 Ö 40kg Compound
    981.01 Ö.. 25kg (55.1lb) (doesn't list type?)
    975.36 Ö.. 33kg (72.8lb) (doesn't list type?)
    854.20 Ö.. 25kg Compound
    719.53 Ö.. 60lb Target Compound
    616.62 Ö.. Unlimited Field Bow
    602.74 Ö.. 45lb Target Compound
    590.70 Ö.. 18kg (39.7lb)
    566.50 Ö.. Unlimited Primitive Complex Composite
    566.09 Ö.. 18kg Compound
    550.03 Ö.. 70lb Field Bow
    485.27 Ö.. 50lb Target Bow
    455.76 Ö.. 50lb Field Bow
    438.12 Ö.. Unlimited American Longbow
    393.90 Ö.. 35lb Target Bow
    392.70 Ö.. 35lb Field Bow
    359.54 Ö.. 70lb American Longbow
    338.18 Ö.. 50lb American Longbow
    323.66 Ö.. Unlimited English Longbow
    321.72 Ö.. Unlimited Primitive Simple Composite
    298.67 Ö.. 50lb Primitive Simple Composite
    293.74 Ö.. 50lb Primitive Complex Composite
    292.00 Ö.. 35lb American Longbow
    282.89 Ö.. Unlimited Primitive Self
    274.54 Ö.. 50lb Primitive Self
    266.58 Ö.. Primitive Turkish Style
    255.61 Ö.. 50lb English Longbow
    219.32 Ö.. 35lb English Longbow
    210.37 Ö.. 35lb Primitive Self

    The footbow can probably be disregarded. Here's a pic of one in use. (http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/art-5510) I'm guessing it's not practical for military use. The same with the compound bows, with all of their pulley systems.

    The ones which would have meaning for us would be the recurve, composite, selfbow, longbows, Turkish style and crossbow.

    Primitive is a class which uses sinew for the string. Selfbow is a class which is made from a single piece of wood has a solid bow construction, as opposed to composite bows. American longbows are also known as American flatbows. They have a rectangular cross section instead of the typical D-shape cross section of the English longbow. The Turkish bow is a recurved composite bow. No idea what the unlimited class means, might pertain to construction materials and type?

  7. #7
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    I'd like to use these figures. The crossbow figure is probably from a modern crossbow. But, WOW!

    "Does that work for TLR 1.9 beta 5 as well?"
    If the EDU hasn't changed, then yes!
    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 09, 2007 at 12:06 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    I was hoping they'd prove useful. Thanks for working on the realistic ranges. They add a great element to the game!

    I'm pretty certain it was a modern metal lathe crossbow; but, yeah, over a mile. Amazing. Still, some of the other numbers are pretty impressive. Especially the primitive styles, like the unlimited primitive simple composite at 321+ meters. Even 266+ meters for the Turkish style, which is about as close as we have to the Mongol style today.

  9. #9
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    the Turkish bow would have been used throughout the Islamic world. this explains the Crusaders had such a hard time getting at the enemy whom could pick him off from afar.

  10. #10
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Sounds interesting. I haven't tried it, but I'm worried that it will really cripple AI siege attackers.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
    Developer of The Long Road Modification

  11. #11
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Quote Originally Posted by tornnight View Post
    Sounds interesting. I haven't tried it, but I'm worried that it will really cripple AI siege attackers.
    Oh, no, tornnight, sieges are just fine. The reason is the artillery of the attackers' is trying to eliminate the defenders'. It is a mutual process, a bit one-sided in favor of the attacker in the beginning. Plus with the Darth system alot of the army is far back. It would be moved further back if need be. It really makes the AI go for the attack or beat trail. I had a battle that went for a while. It was a siege(v. Milan at Marseille). The army I was operating, I used 3 units, the artillery took down the wall. Then the army re-arrayed itself, as if to attack. I play as Sicily, my ally, the Papal_States was also in on it and my force and theirs got to the square before I could know if the rest of my army would attack. Speculation at best now. France is being heavily assaulted by Denmark, whom has been very bad in the Pope's eyes(ex-communicated). He is a Sicilian(and thus in my pocket) as has been the last two(tee-hee). So I asked for a crusade to Jerusalem and got it. Meanwhile, I am assisting France in reconquering its territory. Plenty o' sieges to come. I dominate the Cardinals' college with about 9-10 cardinals.
    Its good to be in the good.

    In truth, I gave most standard artillery units 5 artillery pieces, not all but many. Mercenaries tend to cheat you by costing more but having less equipment, and you'll go for it because you'll need it until you can make it yourself. I have had many battles that resemble the opening scene of 'Gladiator'; battle and fire everywhere!

    I saw a good representation of a siege in the movie 'Flesh+Blood'; stars Rutger Hauer and Jennifer Jason Leigh; bad acting, bad story, great on the historical battles; death everywhere. Your Welcome, Rutger, love ya, Buddy!
    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 09, 2007 at 11:01 AM.

  12. #12
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    OK, tried the 5hp per man thing. Works great in melee. Saw three men die from small missiles. So I went back to 2hp per man and 3hp for their horses. Does anyone remember that CA said that hp for man and beast would be differing in battle, that horses or man could survive the other? I seem to remember this being said. Horse values add to the life of the cavalryman, whom dies way too easily in my opinion. Back to the drawing board. Allowing missiles to do damage to troops seemed to have no effect, to my chagrin. Pisses me off, actually! Well at least I can read about it.

    I wonder if 3hp(3 strikes and your out!(baseball)) would work? 5hp for horses?









    Working fine now. Will post a new packet when the new beta update is in
    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 14, 2007 at 09:28 PM.

  13. #13
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    As promised. Latest update. Sources taken from everywhere. Constantly updating until I feel I have found perfection. Yep, it'll go on forever.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...hp?do=cat&id=7

    will be updating EDU file this weekend. Project will be done by Sunday eve. Cheers!
    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 17, 2007 at 12:33 AM.

  14. #14
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 20, 2007 at 02:06 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Thanks, Condottiere SOG!

  16. #16
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    update

    Realistic Ranges XL.1

    needed to add in variables for attacks. left it out. sorry.


    XL.1 has a flaw with ME-halberdiers as they are not supposed to have the phalanx formation. Causes CTDs!
    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 20, 2007 at 02:06 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Does medieval 2 engine simulate range to accuracy? Or do they still kill the same amount no matter where you are?

  18. #18
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellons View Post
    Does medieval 2 engine simulate range to accuracy? Or do they still kill the same amount no matter where you are?
    At extreme distance, arrows seem less harmful, but close up it can be devastating to have your men set upon by enemy arrows. Same with all range weapons. The further away you are the safer you are. I have a tendency to march my pikemen to take a position through a hail of arrows, because I know when they get there, they'll take it from the enemy. Same with Buckler Swordsmen. Militia and Spearmen.
    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 20, 2007 at 10:50 AM.

  19. #19
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Updated. Minor corrections made. In the pursuit of perfection, as ever!

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=1250

    updated; 21 March, 2007 8:15 pm PST
    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 21, 2007 at 10:44 PM.

  20. #20
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Realistic ranges...................

    Announcing;

    Condottiere SOG's Battle Configuration Set! (Tuh-Dah!)

    I really took it to a new level this time. Battles are alive and full of action. Both AI and Player AI are aggressive toward each other and battles tend to run a bit bloody. Generals are aloof, some get into the battle, some don't. Traits really seem to have an effect. Huge melees, missile troops will skirmish and commit to combat at will. It looks great. I am always hunting for feedback but I guess no news is also good news. Enjoy this boys and girls, from the heart. Cheers!

    As to sieges, I am running into the surprise as much as you are. Haven't conducted a siege yet.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=1258
    Last edited by Condottiere SOG; March 22, 2007 at 06:22 AM.

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