[ORIGINAL THREAD] BROKEN CRESCENT: Total War in the MidEast

[JERUSALEM]

Sounds good. Some sort of 'progress bar' could be added and updated weekly i.e

Map: xx%
Factions: xx%
UI: xx%

The Abbasid and Khwarezmia rosters shouldnt be too hard, my only comment is that your list is quite long (17 units for Abbasid alone). Personally I think that the 3 militia units plus peasants could be dropped OR simply be renamed castle units with lowered stats. Or another option is that we could make 3 or 4 militia units that are non faction specific (no seperate textures), but can be recruited by all Muslim factions in cities. I'm just trying to think of ways to slim down the workload a little bit.



The Aztec roster in vanilla M2TW has some very basic looking loin cloth clad units with a medium sized round shield. They all use the same texture file so it would be a quick job to repaint them. The roster has: Peasants with clubs, javelin men, archers and spearmen. I'm sure these can be repainted to look more Indian-ish, and both the archer unit and javelin men unit can most likely be mounted on timurid elephants. The spearmen can be mounted on a horse to produce a light/medium cav unit and the javelinmen can also be mounted to produce some jav cav.

An axe man (such as the Ghazi unit) and also a swordsmen such as the sudanese tribesmen (both repainted with Indian features) can be borrowed and added to the roster to give a fairly complete line up to the Indian factions, in my opinion.

A thread that shows some excellent models/skins for Indian units made for RTW can be seen here.



When I write Armenia I am refering to Cilician Armenia (because it's much easier to type. )



For Cilician Armenia we need a list of units that the army would field, plus some picture references.

Cheers

hi
how are u

i thoght there was a new fraction ''Armenia''
but was wrong sorry

now about info it is good but
i have to find mre i found
something
i don't know if u
will like
but i shell try to find more later ok

pm or post here if something will be widely need
army list i ' ll post later it needs some reasarch
but
it is not ready now as well as pics (here u may find some simbols or something conected with it just check it ok ) i try as soon as posible

ok

so good lack Alphadelta

now about CILLICIAN ARMENIA

One of these Armenian nobles, the nakharar Oshin, formerly lord of a fortress near Gandzak (Elizabethpol) in Caucasian Albania, had come in 1075 to Cilicia, where his kinsman, Abulgharib Ardzruni, governed Taurus and Mopsuest in the name of the Emperor Alexius I (Comnenus). Oshin was given a hereditary fief (domain), the district of Lampron (Nimroun Qala) on the Tarsus p215River at the Cilician Gates, the narrow pass leading from the Taurus mountain chain — a point of major importance for the security of Cappadocia. At that time the Arabs were in possession of Antioch
now about location

The frontiers of Cilicia are well marked by nature; no political demarcation other than that defined by its topography can be better imagined. On the west stand the mountain masses of Isauria and Cilicia Trachea, presenting the figure of a vast triangle, whose base to the north rests upon the plains of Lycaonia; on the east it is bordered by the Gulf of Satalia and on the third side by the western littoral of the Gulf of Pompeiopolis. The apex of this triangle is the promontory of Anemur, the farthest advanced point of Asia Minor towards the sea. Because of its natural position, Cilicia enjoyed an importance of strategic as well as commercial value.

The valleys of Seyhoun (Sarus) and Jahan (Pyramus) communicated with Coelesyria through the Syrian Gates, breaks in the Amanus range between Guzeldagh and Akmadagh, and through the Portella, the pass of Alexandretta and the shore of the sea. On the southeast was the city of Issus, where Alexander the Great vanquished Darius of Persia in 333 B.C.

p216 Ayas, on the northern side of the Gulf of Alexandretta, became a much frequented port during the Middle Ages. Two commercial routes start from this place. One, through Lampron, served Cappadocia, while the other, through Gaban and Sebastia, reached Greater Armenia. Furthermore, a number of ports and anchorages on this coast, such as Megarsus, Alaya, and Side, offered safe shelters to vessels, and these landing places like Ayas, promoted the commercial relations of Cilicia with the littorals of Syria and the Mediterranean West
first ruler was Roupen and now let's count them

Parons (Baron IN latin and Patroni in Georgian)
1. Roupen I 1080‑1095
2. Constantine I 1095‑1099
3. Thoros I 1099‑1129
4. Leon I, d. 1141 in Constantinople 1129‑1137
Rule of the Byzantines 1137‑1145
5. Thoros II 1145‑1169
6. Mleh 1170‑1175 the MEMBER OF knight of TEMPLARS
7. Roupen II 1175‑1187
8. Leon II 1175‑1187 then as King Leon I 1187‑1196
1196‑1219

2. Kings
1. Leon I 1196 (crowned 1199)‑1219
2. Queen Zabel 1219‑1252
married Philip 1219‑1252
1222‑1225
3. Hetoum I 1226‑1270 second husbend of Queen Zabel
4. Leon II 1270‑1289
5. Hetoum II 1289‑1297
6. Thoros 1293‑1295
7. Sembat 1296‑1298
8. Constantin I 1298‑1299
9. Leon III 1301‑1307
10. Oshin 1308‑1320
11. Leon IV 1320‑1342
12. Guy de Lusignan or Constantin II 1342‑1344
13. Constantin III 1344‑1363
Leon the Usurper 1363‑1365
14. Constantin IV 1365‑1373
15. Leon V, died in Paris, 1393. 1374‑1375

some images, coins info and simbols as well as other staff see here
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...URARM/29*.html
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...URARM/31*.html
and history of Armenia by Vahan M. Kurkjian all book
see here

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...RARM/home.html



respect

[Miraj]

Sounds good. Some sort of 'progress bar' could be added and updated weekly i.e

Map: xx%
Factions: xx%
UI: xx%

The Abbasid and Khwarezmia rosters shouldnt be too hard, my only comment is that your list is quite long (17 units for Abbasid alone). Personally I think that the 3 militia units plus peasants could be dropped OR simply be renamed castle units with lowered stats. Or another option is that we could make 3 or 4 militia units that are non faction specific (no seperate textures), but can be recruited by all Muslim factions in cities. I'm just trying to think of ways to slim down the workload a little bit.



The Aztec roster in vanilla M2TW has some very basic looking loin cloth clad units with a medium sized round shield. They all use the same texture file so it would be a quick job to repaint them. The roster has: Peasants with clubs, javelin men, archers and spearmen. I'm sure these can be repainted to look more Indian-ish, and both the archer unit and javelin men unit can most likely be mounted on timurid elephants. The spearmen can be mounted on a horse to produce a light/medium cav unit and the javelinmen can also be mounted to produce some jav cav.

An axe man (such as the Ghazi unit) and also a swordsmen such as the sudanese tribesmen (both repainted with Indian features) can be borrowed and added to the roster to give a fairly complete line up to the Indian factions, in my opinion.

A thread that shows some excellent models/skins for Indian units made for RTW can be seen here.



When I write Armenia I am refering to Cilician Armenia (because it's much easier to type. )



For Cilician Armenia we need a list of units that the army would field, plus some picture references.

Cheers

Feel free to trim the units down. The list is mainly fattened by many units that are militia. But if its still too big we'll reduce it, its not a final list and more unique names will be used once historical research is done.

If you're confident with the indian units then thats awsome. I am no skinners so I have no real clue how hard or doable somethings are.

The Sultanate of Ghazni will have units like "Afghan Tribal Warband" and "Pashtu Warriors". Units that don't really fit the 'indian' mold. The woodsmen units of the russians is in fact the best basis for them, except darker hair.



They will look similar to the above, turban and all. Of course no guns - sword, spear or halberd instead. Come to think about it the look of the standard afghan tribal soldier hasn't changed to this day!


And remember guys the spirit of this mod is to keep things nice and tight. So the names will have a pretty standard appeal. "Kingdom of Armenia" is what we'll used instead of "Armenian Cilicia", mainly to keep parallelism in names and to keep a standardized form. Besides it was the Kingdom of Armenia.

So AlphaDelta, go ahead and work on those Armenians. Hopefully people more versed in Armenian history will post some pics and unit info. I have no clue thats for sure!

[AlphaDelta]

If you're confident with the indian units then thats awsome. I am no skinners so I have no real clue how hard or doable somethings are.

Certainly we can create some classical Indian looking units with those Aztec units we have.

Here are some pictures I found on this website (which by the way is a very good site for getting a basic idea of region troops).











Those Afghan units would be interesting. Turbins are going to be more or less impossible with the models we have at the moment.

Anyway, about the Armenians.







They all look very much like the Georgian units.

Also this thread has renders and screenshots of units from the RTW mod "The crusades".

[Tadzreuli]

hi all,

welcome back Mirage41 .

now we finaly finished Georgian units, but I think this my new pics you should be look at:

description:
(cavalrymen, dismounted monaspa, dismounted archer monaspa, monaspa archers cavalrymen)

Monaspa

"Monaspa - this of elit force in the medieval Georgian army XII-XV c.c.. In the first reference "monaspa" is encountered after the reforms of David IV “the Builder” (reighned 1089-1125), king formed those well trained, fanatically true to king and to the fatherland the force of the strong and heavily armed cavalrymen from the the small nobility and from the free people. Monaspa gradually became most disciple, excellently managed all types of weapon, terrible impact cavalry in the Georgian army. Under its strong pressure enemy forces fall into panic and leaves field of conflict without the caution, knowing that with the collision with the the Georgian “Monaspa” from awaits certain death. Monaspa excellently manage spear, sword and bow, which makes the form of enemy troops with their dangerous rival for any. Practically Monaspa The universal Force"

[xXx_SpArToN_xXx]

jus a quick question.. wil you be re skinning the priests, spies, captians, or princess??

[xXx_SpArToN_xXx]

anyone have any ideas for shahdom cavalry flags???

[murat_88]

If you made a change in your Turkish(ottoman-seljuks)units,can I see the pictures of them.

[Tadzreuli]

hi again

I have only one request about Georgian units stats, it shiuld be increase. for example use this balance beetwin attack and defend powers stats:


I. Cavalry

1. Monaspa Lancers/Georgian general guard > att. 14, miss. 11, def. 19.


att. - 13
missile - 10
def. - 18


2. Eristavi cavalry

att. 10
def. - 17

3. Monaspa horse archers

att. - 9
missile - 11
def. - 14

4. Tadzreuli cavalry

att. 10
def. 15

II. Infantry


1. dismounted Tadzreuli

att. 11
def. 19

2. Aznaur's

att. 10
def. 22

3. dismounted Eristavs's

att. 12
def. 23

4. Kartlian spearmen

att. 8
def. 15

5. Metsikhovne spearmen

att. 9
def. 19

6. dismounted Monaspa

att. 14
def. 24

7. spearmen militia

att. 6
def. 10

8. Mandatur's

att. 14
def. 15

III. Missile infantry

1. dismounted Monaspa archers

att. 10
miss. 12
def. 17

2. Metsikhovne archers

att. 8
miss. 10
def. 16

3. Svimra - (Svanian archers)

att. 8
miss. 14
def. 16

[xXx_SpArToN_xXx]

byzantine archer cataphracts for them maybe???

[kobi118]

Tadzreuli also write what will be their stats with the armor upgrades (oh, and u also need to make skins for that.. ) and the weapon upgrades, and the xp upgrades...

and also what power will be charge, and from the defence, how much goes to armor and how much goes to skill

[Lusted]

You can't change what increase to stats armour upgrades/weapon upgrades/experience points give.

[Ahiga]

There may be a slight work around with turbans until we can add in new meshes.

If you 'skin' the turban onto a head (Without any sort of hat or helmet), you may be able to with shadows and such, give an illusion of a turban. Similar to how Burrek did his helmets on mailed knights.

For Daylami, personally I'd suggest a range of Daylami units. When I read about them in Osprey, it sounded like when they first started off they fought with axe and javelin, but when getting richer, acquired more arms and armor.

What could work would be:

Daylami Tribesmen (Spear-javelin. The most 'levy')

Daylami Infantry (The bread and butter unit, starting off with cloth but upgradable to light or heavy mail. First model could be viking raiders, and the later models druchina).

And maybe as a final one, a daylami elite, using a reskinned kurdish javelinmen mesh. Or have it be the Druchina/Boyar Sons mesh.

And I think only their higher levels should look like the dismounted monaspas.

[Miraj]

There may be a slight work around with turbans until we can add in new meshes.

If you 'skin' the turban onto a head (Without any sort of hat or helmet), you may be able to with shadows and such, give an illusion of a turban. Similar to how Burrek did his helmets on mailed knights.

For Daylami, personally I'd suggest a range of Daylami units. When I read about them in Osprey, it sounded like when they first started off they fought with axe and javelin, but when getting richer, acquired more arms and armor.

What could work would be:

Daylami Tribesmen (Spear-javelin. The most 'levy')

Daylami Infantry (The bread and butter unit, starting off with cloth but upgradable to light or heavy mail. First model could be viking raiders, and the later models druchina).

And maybe as a final one, a daylami elite, using a reskinned kurdish javelinmen mesh. Or have it be the Druchina/Boyar Sons mesh.

And I think only their higher levels should look like the dismounted monaspas.

I like this idea. I need input like this guys. I am no historian! Yeah, I think Khwarezmia needs a Daylami "series" like you said. Great idea. If you have any more knowledge about eastern units please do share them - I currently have a severe historical gap for some of these Muslims factions. Its very hard to come by books that discuss these thinkg.

Reading the text you linked gives me the impression that the Daylami had roman/scutarii tactic with the javelins and all - only they have an axe. I wonder if doing a "hastati" type unit is doable with M2TW units, because they shouldn't be skirmishers thats for sure. Hail of spears, then move in with the axes. I like this!

[Ahiga]

It should be possible. I'll need to look but I think you can specify for it to have them turn off skirmishing at startup (I think that the reiters have this enabled).

I've been interested in the Daylami so I've tried to find some images, but so far I've only found two-three.



http://theminiaturespage.com/news/518507/

The Daylami Infantry ought to fight just like that - A sort of quasi Legionary force. My own opinion (And no historical backing) would suggest two 'regulars' units. The first is the Daylami Infantry, starting off in cloth that upgrades to heavy mail, and would be high in defense and shield but low in armor (Encouraging using them in a shield wall and as shock troops). With armor upgrades they'd function as medium infantry.

The Daylami Elite would start off in light mail and upgrade to mail and lamellar/scale and would be able to operate as heavy infantry, both shock and battle-line, with high armor, a bit lower defense skill, and high shield rating.

On top of those I would consider adding a levy daylami unit (Around the cost of regular militia, but a bit superior, however being AOR/merc only. Spear and javelin or just spear), along with maybe an archer daylami unit - Not as good at archery as other archer units, but better at melee so it's like a sabadar militia.


For their appearance, the key thing is that they have brightly painted and ornate shields.

[Axeman]

Hi Axeman,

Thanks alot for the input and enthusiasm in this mod. Appreciate it! I checked out the proposed map changes and also the new factions you'd like to see. There are somethings that interest me and others that I probably won't add. Kievan Rus falls outside of the scope of this map and I won't add any major faction when most of their core regions fall outside the map.

This mod will have a tight focus on the middle east and I will at most add one more southern or northern faction.

I will definitely consider an ethipion/african faction for the south of Egypt and I like the idea of adding in the Cumans.

However the first intended release of this mod will probably not include any of them because I will focus heavily on the core factions mainly the Muslim ones along with Georgia and Armenia - major factions which I feel have been neglected and ignored by both vanilla and other M2TW mods.

Once we're done this we will then begin to add other cool elements and factions as this mod becomes popular and new versions are made.

But keep up the good info and ideas!

MIRAGE

I can understand that, I added some factions outside to emphasis this 1 important fact, much of the middle easts history has been made by outside forces!

But I understand, but please keep in the county of Moldovia, historically they fought the turks and volga bulgars and cumans and where very important in eastern europe

[Tadzreuli]

[quote=Tadzreuli;1582178]hi again

I have only one request about Georgian units stats, it shiuld be increase. for example use this balance beetwin attack and defend powers stats:


I. Cavalry

1. Monaspa Lancers/Georgian General guard >
early General unit: att. 13, miss. 8, def. 18
late General unit : att. 14, miss. 10, def. 19

NOT general unit Monaspa lancers:

att. 14
miss. 8
deff. 18


2. Eristavi cavalry

att. 10
def. - 17

3. Monaspa horse archers

att. - 9
missile - 10
def. - 14

4. Tadzreuli cavalry

att. 10
def. 15

II. Infantry


1. dismounted Tadzreuli

att. 10
def. 17

2. Aznaur's

att. 10
def. 19

3. dismounted Eristavs's

att. 12
def. 22

4. Kartlian spearmen

att. 9
def. 14

5. Metsikhovne spearmen

att. 9
def. 16

6. dismounted Monaspa lancers

att. 14
def. 22

7. spearmen militia

att. 6
def. 9

8. Mandatur's

att. 17
def. 10

III. Missile infantry

1. dismounted Monaspa archers

att. 10
miss. 10
def. 17

2. Metsikhovne archers

att. 7
miss. 9
def. 16

3. Svimra - (Svanian archers)

att. 8
miss. 11
def. 12/quote]

I change some stats... and this stats are without upgrade armor/weapon/xp !!!

[Miraj]

@Tadzreuli

I've copied and saved the units stats for my reference. I'm sure AlphaDelta will update the unit data. However, remember that these stats may change once the mod is in beta stage. We will have to have some test runs on the campaign map and we will inevitabley tweak with unit stats if one faction is too powerful. Of course this applies to all faction, not just Georgia.

And another thing. I intend to keep this mod as "english-friendly" as possible. Native names are nice but as long as they are reasonably pronouncable. So names like Monaspa, Eristavi, Tadzreuli or Aznaurs are perfectly fine and I even like the sound of those units. However "Metsikhovne" is name I really have to try hard to pronounce. Is there anyway you could anglicize it a bit? Just to make it easier to read. Is there an easier georgian-to-english pronounciation for that? Thanks


@Axeman
Thanks for the understanding. We will do what we can later to include new factions, but we have only so much time to focus on main tasks. Thanks for the info though.



-------

I've updated the very first post and at the bottom you will see a progress summary of everything.

[Drtad]

Yes, in the early years Armenia's military should be like Georgia's, but in the later years it should be like the Crusaders.

[Ahiga]

For Iranian Infantry, the answer to ottoman infantry, how about using the Sabadar Militia skins? It would offer the use of a bow and shield and axe, if perhaps the axe is more Iranian than the sword (I can't say for sure).

The only issue is their asiatic faces and that it might take a lot of work to reskin.

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

HOHOHOH...*claps* very good work..lokks awsome and so refreshingly different from other mods....keep it up all