Normans

[Nibs]

Not sure how late you are planning to go but might be cool to include the Normans as a non-playable emergin faction later on as they had a pretty epic impact for the short time they were around.

Would be a game event sorta "...a Danish Lord Rollo or Rolfgr arrives in Northern France, the French, fearful of their new rivals call them the Northmen or Normans..." The Norman army would aim to take the province that would historically become Normandy. If you happens to be playing as the Franks (or whoever) you will have the chance to change history and kick them out or if you are anyone else just sit back and watch them take Normandy, Maine, Brittany and perhaps Enlgand.

It might be an idea that if you are playing any Danish nation, that the Normans do not emerge as it is up to you where you raid etc...

[mocker]

Not sure how late you are planning to go but might be cool to include the Normans as a non-playable emergin faction later on as they had a pretty epic impact for the short time they were around.

Would be a game event sorta "...a Danish Lord Rollo or Rolfgr arrives in Northern France, the French, fearful of their new rivals call them the Northmen or Normans..." The Norman army would aim to take the province that would historically become Normandy. If you happens to be playing as the Franks (or whoever) you will have the chance to change history and kick them out or if you are anyone else just sit back and watch them take Normandy, Maine, Brittany and perhaps Enlgand.

It might be an idea that if you are playing any Danish nation, that the Normans do not emerge as it is up to you where you raid etc...

Correction: Rollo was most certainly from Norway, not Denmark.
Most likely from around Ålesund.

Altough this is not perfectly clear, the norwegian source Historia Norvegiae (1100s) states so. The other sources that says that he was from Denmark are french.

What leads me to the notion of Rollo being norwegian is the following:
If he was danish, how come there was no danish scribes writing about him?

[Athokas]

I always heard he was danish?
Found a wiki:
"Rollo was a Viking leader of contested origin. Dudo of St. Quentin, in his De moribus et actis primorum Normannorum ducum, tells of a powerful Danish nobleman at loggerheads with the king of Denmark, who then died and left his two sons, Gurim and Rollo, leaving Rollo to be expelled and Gurim killed. William of Jumièges also mentions Rollo's prehistory in his Gesta Normannorum Ducum however he states that he was from the Danish town of Fakse. Wace, writing some 300 years after the event in his Roman de Rou, also mentions the two brothers (as Rou and Garin), as does the Orkneyinga Saga.

Norwegian and Icelandic sources however state that he came from Norway, the son of Ragnvald, Earl of Moer; sagas mention a Hrolf, son of Ragnvald jarl of More. The oldest source of this version is the Latin Historia Norvegiae, written in Norway at the end of the 12th century. This Hrolf fell foul of the Norwegian king, Harald Fairhair and left Norway with a Viking war-band, arriving in France via the British Isles.

The question of Rollo's Norwegian or Danish origins was a matter of heated dispute between Norwegian and Danish historians of the 19th and early 20th century, particularly in the run-up to Normandy's 1000-year-anniversary in 1911. Today, historians still disagree on this question, but most would now agree that a certain conclusion can never be reached."

[Soulghast]

I don't know, but the Norman faction slot is already in use...

[Terror]

I have also heard that Rollo was Danish, i saw a map in some book and it showed the homelands, colonies and places where some vikings settled. Well, danish vikings sacked and pillaged England, Normandy, and Burgundy, and some of them settled there. Not lots of norwegian vikings ended to Normandy, they ended to places like Scotland, Ireland, Iceland and even Greenland. They also made a trip to Newfoundland.

But, since the faction slots are full.....

[mocker]

I have also heard that Rollo was Danish, i saw a map in some book and it showed the homelands, colonies and places where some vikings settled. Well, danish vikings sacked and pillaged England, Normandy, and Burgundy, and some of them settled there. Not lots of norwegian vikings ended to Normandy, they ended to places like Scotland, Ireland, Iceland and even Greenland. They also made a trip to Newfoundland.

But, since the faction slots are full.....

Danish vikings sacked Normandy...?
As far as I know, the only viking attack on the area of Normandy ended up founding it... And considering the fact that no danish sources mention the normandy-trip, I find it unlikely. Non-norse sources tend to mix up danes and norwegians, among other false accounts regarding vikings.

Norwegian vikings also raided the mediterranean, by the way.

[Nibs]

Sure you cannae make them emerging, could be cool. Whatever the desicion as far as I am aware Rollo was Danish, as Terror pointed out Norweigian settlers tended towards the Northern parts of Britain, Ireland, Scotland, Iceland etc etc. Burial and place-name evidence supports this. As for source evidence yes the writers who said he was Danish were Franks but that doesn't mean they were wrong. As far as they were concerned scandanavian raiders were Danes, it is a logical assumption and there is no reason Rollo should be different. The Danes did not write about every expedition or settlment in Frankia of which there were a fair few.

[finneys13]

They can't really be in, as it would be unrealistic, who would say the Danes, Norwegians, or the Franks would still be in the game in 911.

To be realistic the game should only really have the 'factions' that existed in 785 in the game, from that point on it is up to the game and ourselves how history pans out, in 785 we don't know Rollo in 911 will besiege Paris and gain Normandy as a fief. As I said, there might be no Franks, Danes or Norwegians in the game by then, there are too many variables.

If Brittany owns the 'Norman' regions in 911, which could be very possible, how could Charles the Bald give the Normans Normandy?

[Nibs]

Again correction, there were a fair few Viking attacks on Normandy and across Northern France hence the archaeological evidence of bridges built across rivers specifically to stop them. Besides the mediterranian link (which did not result in settlement) looking at Norweigan settlement and expansion patterns supports the theory that Rollo was Danish. More importantly is the fact that Rollo was given the land around Roeun to protect the area from other raiders, a popular Frankish tactic with Danish Vikings at the time and ten years later another Viking leader was given land around Nantes for the same purpose, the only difference being that Rollos duchy survived.

[finneys13]

Did you get my PM Nibs?

[Nibs]

They can't really be in, as it would be unrealistic, who would say the Danes, Norwegians, or the Franks would still be in the game in 911.

To be realistic the game should only really have the 'factions' that existed in 785 in the game, from that point on it is up to the game and ourselves how history pans out, in 785 we don't know Rollo in 911 will besiege Paris and gain Normandy as a fief. As I said, there might be no Franks, Danes or Norwegians in the game by then, there are too many variables.

If Brittany owns the 'Norman' regions in 911, which could be very possible, how could Charles the Bald give the Normans Normandy?

Fair point but that is why I had them as an emerging faction with only an army, who knows if they will get Normandy? We don't but they should still get the chance. The only context it has to be sensetive to is the survival of the Danes, Rollo wouldn't have decided to go somewhere other than France just because the Franks hadn't been there. As far as I know the Danish survival variable can be put in I think if I rinsed the Romans in RTW the Marian reforms didn't happen right? To be honest I reckon I'm gonna love the mod whoever is in it, I just think it'd be cool to have them in

[finneys13]

It would also depend on the Franks being in, and the Danes being strong enough, if the Danes only had one region left, Rollo is hardly going to appear in Normandy, 785 to 911 is too long a period with too many variables to have an emerging faction.

We have the Saxons and Lombards emerging, but they will be emerging in the first few years of the game, and their emergings are nationalistic, not dynastic.

[mocker]

1. The common viking routes didn't mean norwegian vikings couldn't travel to France. Historiae Norvegiae also states that Rollo travelled through britain, so it does make sense.

2. An army appearing in Normandy? That would mean the normans would take the region by force, which is historically incorrect.

[Nibs]

Yes and half the settlers in western Normandy were British and Irish according, as I keep saying, to place-name evidence, Hybrid names (owner plus suffix) suggest Danish origin though are right one could mix them up. However I would argue that raiding patterns are more than common and can be used to form an informed theory. In fairness we cannot be entirely sure, we have after all, made some very valid points but I still maintain that the larger evidence supports Rollo being Danish.

As for historical viability of taking Normandy by force, well in fairness they raided their way down the Seine before Philip bought them off. I mean they could have an emissary whose first action is to request the city of Rouen and if you refuse.... but again alot of effort. To be honest including them would be cool but finney alerted me to the fact that their impact comes too late in the mods time-frame.

I still maintain he was danish but you are right they would probably have to take Normandy by force which if half wrong and I ain't one for half measures

[mocker]

Yes and half the settlers in western Normandy were British and Irish according, as I keep saying, to place-name evidence, Hybrid names (owner plus suffix) suggest Danish origin though are right one could mix them up. However I would argue that raiding patterns are more than common and can be used to form an informed theory. In fairness we cannot be entirely sure, we have after all, made some very valid points but I still maintain that the larger evidence supports Rollo being Danish.

Danish names? You might not be aware of this, but at the given time (911), norway, sweden, and denmark had Old Norse as a common language.
It remained so until the 14th century. Thus, the argument is invalid.

You are right about one thing though, there's no way to be sure about Rollo's origin.

[Nibs]

This could go on forever and in all honesty doesn't matter overly I guess but would point out that there are noticable differences in dialect and actual names between them...anyways, truce!

[mocker]

I don't see how this is a battle, but whatever you say...

[The Good]

Technically, at this start time of this mod, the "Normans" were just basically just any Scandinavian raiders, but were called that by the Franks/Gallo-Romans of this period.

[Athokas]

Wonder what Tnick make of all this. We allready used up all our faction slots.

Nibs, Maybe you can help me out by spotting things that could be corrected in the Danmörk thread? You seem to know alot about them

[Little_Mikey]

The Normans were pretty cool.