Turks

[cccankaya]

In this mod(TLR beta 5) turks has been made very underpowered.For example,
one of the most powerful heavy Calvalry, Quapukulu has been removed or forgotten to be included.There is no quapukulu in campaign in this mod.Thats a mistake.

Another mistake is Janissary heavy infantry are became very underpowered.In vanilla, they are one of the best heavy infantry(maybe the best) but in this mod, they can easily crashed by dis.feudal knight.(I have made 3 custom battle with 1 vs 1 and each time dis. feudal Knights win a clear victory.I must see a dream or something for this to be real.)

Pls fix these things.

Note: Another thing , important i guess, there is a bug with trades in cities.
For example in city details trade is showing 50 gold.But in trade details it shows 250 gold.So where is the remaining 200 gold?

[tornnight]

This isn't vanilla. There is an Era system in place.

Quapukulu has Half Plate Armor.
They don't appear for quite a while.

This is the order of strength for turkish heavy infantry style units.
Janissary Heavy Infantry
Dismounted Sipahi Lancers
Hashishim

Janissary Heavy Infantry is balanced with Byzantium Infantry as early heavy infantry units.

I don't quite understand what you mean about trade. Please explain it again. But I don't think there is a way to break it.

[cccankaya]

yeah I understand the era system but I searched all the buildings both city and castle and cant find Quapukulu neither in most upgraded stable nor something else.

This isn't vanilla. There is an Era system in place.
Janissary Heavy Infantry is balanced with Byzantium Infantry as early heavy infantry units.

Janissarys are not early infantry.They are late infantry.And balancing them with Byzantium infantry?I think you should balance them with varangian Guards, dis. noble knights and dis. Eng. Knights. Because Janissarries are the most powerful heavy infantries in middle ages until 1650s-1700s.


What I mean with trade bug is for ex. in my campaign Antioch, has a trade income 56 gold what i see in city details.But in city details there is a button "Trade details" and when i get in trade details i see antioch is trading with cyprus, alexandira, etc. and makes 290 gold.
So if antioch makes trade and earns 290 gold, why it shows 56 gold in city details but not 290? I will try to get some screenshots.

[Lopus]

yeah I understand the era system but I searched all the buildings both city and castle and cant find Quapukulu neither in most upgraded stable nor something else.

Assuming you are speaking of Beta 1.9.5 right? It's under King's stables.

                recruit_pool "Quapukulu"  1   0.5   4  0  requires factions { turks, } and event_counter HALF_PLATE_ARMOR 1

Janissarys are not early infantry.They are late infantry.And balancing them with Byzantium infantry?I think you should balance them with varangian Guards, dis. noble knights and dis. Eng. Knights. Because Janissarries are the most powerful heavy infantries in middle ages until 1650s-1700s.

He's right about this boss, The SELJUKs never had them, the OTTOMANs did, at a fairly late point of time. (circa 1500s)

What I mean with trade bug is for ex. in my campaign Antioch, has a trade income 56 gold what i see in city details.But in city details there is a button "Trade details" and when i get in trade details i see antioch is trading with cyprus, alexandira, etc. and makes 290 gold.
So if antioch makes trade and earns 290 gold, why it shows 56 gold in city details but not 290? I will try to get some screenshots.

Is this the save game - reset capital to recompute merchant income bug?:hmmm:

[cccankaya]

ok i got some screenshots.Take a look at:
These two belongs to iconium.Look at the trade incomes.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0083.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0084.jpg

And these two belongs to antioch.Same thing here.
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0078.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0079.jpg
I have loaded your 1.9.5 beta then started a new campaign with Turks and these are the screenies of that campaign.

And About qupukulu.There is no kings stable in turks.There's Sultan stable.And there is no qupukulu in there.And yes i mean 1.9.5 beta.
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0080.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0081.jpg

I think these may help to understand what i am talking to.

Note: Janissaries have been found and started to serv at 1365 by Sultan Murad.So they are not early infantry.

"The Ottomans were the first state to maintain a standing army in Europe since the Roman Empire. The Janissaries have been likened to the Roman Praetorian Guard and they had no equivalent in the Christian armies of the time, where the feudal lords raised troops during wartime.A janissary regiment was effectively the soldier's family. They lived in their barracks and served as policemen and firefighters during peacetime." From wikipedia.

So as you can understand they are professional soldiers not militias or not peasants.They are unmatched by any other knights.So the ottomans have came to the frontiers of Vienna and became the largest and most powerful empire of middle ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary

[Lopus]

ok i got some screenshots.Take a look at:
These two belongs to iconium.Look at the trade incomes.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0083.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0084.jpg

And these two belongs to antioch.Same thing here.
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0078.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0079.jpg
I have loaded your 1.9.5 beta then started a new campaign with Turks and these are the screenies of that campaign.

Hmmm ... tornnight is the one who can answer that. I've never even noticed that.

And About qupukulu.There is no kings stable in turks.There's Sultan stable.And there is no qupukulu in there.And yes i mean 1.9.5 beta.
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0080.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...assin/0081.jpg

I think these may help to understand what i am talking to.

Has the half-plate event occurred yet?

event historic HALF_PLATE_ARMOR
;TRUE TIME date  170 220
date  160 185
;(c. Late 13th century)

This means it'll occur anywhere between 160 - 185 years after game starts (1080 start date so 1240 - 1265 AD).

[tornnight]

Your Half-Plate armor event has NOT occured. You won't see the Quapukulu until later on.

Hmm I never noticed that inconsistency. I can't fix it. The trade details is what the actual trade is.

The basic city view screen always seemed to show scaled values but I don't know with what.

In vanilla and most other mods you can recruit Janissary Infantry whenever you happen to get the proper building. This means you could potentially get them very early in the game.

The units are still strong heavy infantry. They will upgrade as the buildings get better with more experience.

I could simply move the janissary infantry to the last level building leaving an upgrade for the buildings that doesn't give you a unit.
If we had more units then I could put these units in better places.

What other solution would you propose?

[cccankaya]

In vanilla JHI can be recruited with a upgraded town hall in huge cities.So you cant get them very soon in game.

In vanilla and most other mods you can recruit Janissary Infantry whenever you happen to get the proper building. This means you could potentially get them very early in the game.

The units are still strong heavy infantry. They will upgrade as the buildings get better with more experience.

They are Not strong now.Even pilgrims can hurt them badly. Dis. Feudal Knights crushes them with only a few losses. Just try a few custom battles and you wiill see what i mean.JHI is far away from being strong now. And a few armor and experience upgrades doesnt change anything.

I could simply move the janissary infantry to the last level building leaving an upgrade for the buildings that doesn't give you a unit.
If we had more units then I could put these units in better places.

What other solution would you propose?

The problem is occured after the re-balancing units.JHI normally have normal charge and normal defence and a strong attack.But the main strength of JHI is the effective against armour and bonus against armour traits.Also JHI have a effective animation.But when you decreased the wholeover defences- attacks for all units, The bonusses for JHI also have been reduced so they became very weak and usesless.Also you have inccreased morals of all troops but decreased JHI moral.So they started to run even before militias.Just looked halberd militias morale and its excelletnt morale but JHI's morale is good. And the interesting thins is one of them is militias and other one is the only Professional soldiers in medieval times until 1500s.

I think you can increase its defence skill and attack but mostly needed to boost their morale.
And when they started to crush dis. feudal knights, beat dis. noble knight and dis. english knight and hardly beat varangian gurads , at that time they will be fixed.

Note: I think this is important because , now playing with Turks is ultra hard.Because all of their soldiers is now underpowered and weakened compared to their western equals.Can you imagine that the backbone of ottoman army, JHI, is equal powered by halberdiers, the peasants with a halberd.
Come on, they are professional soldiers.And this effect seriously game playing because nearly all crusades will fight with Turks, i dont even say mongols and timurids. So if turks weak, it means easy crusades and easy mongol timurid invasion and less fun.

[tornnight]

You are comparing units from different eras.
The Eras are based on armor technology used.

Dismounted Feudal Knights start with Heavy Mail armor and Janissary Heavy Infantry start with regular Mail. That's how CA designed them.

In the campaign you won't even have access to Dismounted Feudal Knights for a long time after you have Janissary Heavy Infantry.

Thanks how I balanced it.
If I move the Janissary Heavy Infantry further up the chain and make them more powerful, then all you get is Azabs for the early game. That will weaken the Turks even more.

I don't know what you're talking about.
I JUST checked a custom battle with Janissary Heavy Infantry with plus 1 armor and plus 1 experienced and they WON against dismounted feudal knights.
Also pilgrims get Completely destroyed by them.

By the time the Byantines get the Varangian Guard, the Janissary Heavy Infantry will have an additional level of experience to help equalize them.
As you get higher buildings, the units get more powerful because of the additional experience.

You are just comparing what you see in the Custom battles without taking into account how the Campaign is setup.

The Morale levels are based on initial training and is directly related to the attack values and building positions. Those units with higher morale are harder to get.

There is a possibility that the halberd militia and similar units may need to be have their morale tweaked. But the Janissary Heavy Infantry are just fine. They are in fact quite a bit stronger than Halberd Militia.

[Averroës]

It looks to me like the number in parentheses for trade in the settlement details, such as Trade(67) is a percentage of something not a total. At least just glancing at it. The income total can't possibly be 1105 total if trade is only 67 and yet it is showing as 5 of the 7 icons for what is producing that total income. The number 67 doesn't appear to be a direct percentage of the total either; but it seems closer to being a percentage than a total.

Other factors come into play, I'm betting. Total trade shows as 224 on the trade details. Then it adds farming income; but this is the trade details? And when do taxes and corruption get added into the mix? The farm icon is just 1 of 7 in the settlement details; but the trade details says farm income is 291 which is actually more than trade. And yet trade has 4 icons in the row compared to just 1 for farm income. And tax income has 2 icons. And then on all of that, at the end or in the middle comes the governor traits like bad taxman or goodfarmer and the titles for +trade and +tax income.

I think the best policy is just to say "Ack! Math!" and run the other way. Worse yet, it's game developer math which may actually have no relation whatsoever to any known branch of mathematics and may be following the rules of some alternate Red Bull-pumped, junk food-eating, sleep-lacking alternate game developer universe. Best to just look away, for your own sanity.

[cccankaya]

Averroes, you got a point. But the interesting thing, if i am not wrong, in vanilla and some other mods i've played, these sums are correct.In other words, trade details and city details shows the same amounts in vanilla and other mods ive played.But i must take a look again. If so, the difference is big and effects game i think.

[Averroës]

Heh, that's the point of my last paragraph. For your own sanity, don't ask! Just walk away from the discrepancy. We're talking about developer math here, which bears no relation whatsoever to real world math or reality in general. It will cause you to lose your hair. At least that's what I blame for my bald spots.