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Thread: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

  1. #1

    Default TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade / Resources Discussion

    The resources do need some work. Here is the current distribution of resources in TLR 1.9 beta 5, by number of uses.

    timber 72
    iron 50
    furs 42
    silk 29
    wine 26
    dyes 24
    cotton 22
    slaves 21
    sugar 21
    wool 21
    silver 19
    sulfur 16
    amber 10
    coal 10
    fish 10
    gold 8
    grain 8
    marble 7
    tin 6
    textiles 5
    tobacco 4
    ivory 3
    chocolate 2

    Total 436

    Clearly it needs some work. Does anyone actually put a merchant on timber? It can be cut down. Furs too. Iron is probably a bit overdone. And silk.

    And spices are missing. Salt was one of the most valuable resources in medieval Europe, often being worth more than gold. Frederick Barbarossa's family grew rich and powerful in Swabia because of its control over most of the salt mines. The search for better trade routes to the eastern spices in general instigated the great Portuguese and Spanish naval explorations of the 15th century and sent Marco Polo east as well.

    There are a total possible of just 199 provinces, yes? Even if every one was a town and had a grain exchange, that's still only 199 possible merchants on the map in the most extreme circumstance. To me, then, 436 resources seems a bit much. Maybe a compromise in between somewhere.

    Right now, I'm researching medieval sources for the main exporting regions for each. I'm finding all manner of useful information, such as dyes - especially Polish cochineal, an insect which produces a vivid red dye - which were the leading export of Poland and Lithuania in the 15th century. Or that sugar cane was introduced early by the Moors into Spain and was produced near Lisbon and Seville. Scandinavia was a leading exporter of sea ivory - ivory from large sea mammals like walrus and whalebone traded to them from the Finns further north, and the Hanseatic League trade in that type of ivory directly competed the Italian monopoly on African and Indian ivory trade leading to much contention between the two great merchant powers.

    Fun stuff. Typically, I'll end up losing myself in all this and come out the other side in a few days with an utterly useless knowledge of something only marginally related but which was highly engrossing. Heh.

  2. #2
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade / Resources Discussion

    Trade and Resources Discussion only
    Last edited by tornnight; February 28, 2007 at 07:40 PM.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
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  3. #3

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Ah, thanks, Tornnight!

    Post your thoughts all! What do you like or dislike about the current resources? Can we cut down on some, or should others be increased?

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    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    I like the idea of more exclusive resources. Makes trade agreements more important as well.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
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    Lopus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Is it just me or is there a boost if you control ALL the sources of a certain resource?

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    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Hmm, never noticed or heard of such a thing. That would be neat.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
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  7. #7

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    That was my thinking. Things like amber and ivory had very specific locales. Marble can be limited to those areas famous for a particular type, like Penteli marble from near Athens, Macael marble from east of Granada, Proconnesus marble from the isle in the Sea of Marmara (make it mid-Anatolian coast of Marmara), and Carrara marble from between Florence and Genoa.

  8. #8

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopus View Post
    Is it just me or is there a boost if you control ALL the sources of a certain resource?
    If you control all of a resource in a province then you seem to get the Monopolist trait line - capitalist, etc.

    It's the Trigger Agent33. But what a "TradingMonopoly" is must be buried somewhere in the packed data.

  9. #9
    Lopus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by tornnight View Post
    Hmm, never noticed or heard of such a thing. That would be neat.
    Definitely, I sent merchants to the three ivory locales, accompanied by armies so that they become part of my extended Danish empire. At first, I was only earning about 200 florins, but when I got to the last one, they jumped to 950 florins (my best merchant @ 7 stars) and 650 florins (my next to best merchants @ 5 stars). Take note, the 200 florins thing was from my best merchant.

    Quote Originally Posted by AverroŽs View Post
    That was my thinking. Things like amber and ivory had very specific locales. Marble can be limited to those areas famous for a particular type, like Penteli marble from near Athens, Macael marble from east of Granada, Proconnesus marble from the isle in the Sea of Marmara (make it mid-Anatolian coast of Marmara), and Carrara marble from between Florence and Genoa.
    Well if you are doing the resources, I guess I'll take the slack with the titles thing. Although I'll just reuse the BBB shields because I have absolutely zero ability to draw (even on a computer). Although I think my platter designs are nice (but that's food).

  10. #10

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopus View Post
    Well if you are doing the resources, I guess I'll take the slack with the titles thing. Although I'll just reuse the BBB shields because I have absolutely zero ability to draw (even on a computer). Although I think my platter designs are nice (but that's food).
    Works for me. After the resources, I'll see about finding a way to extend the heraldy shields for the new settlements. Dearmad appears to have used many town coats of arms, so it seems reasonable to keep that trend. The trick will be figuring out how to make them into the .tga files of the right size and palette. Not sure I can do that any better than you. I'm at the 2-year old with crayon level when it comes to computer graphics.

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    Lopus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Hahaha, well, I guess being "more experienced" does have some side benefits though, I've time to NOT work if I don't feel like it.

    Okay, I'll try to upload an updated BBB for TLR within the next few days. I think it's time to use up some of my accumulated vacation leave, since I'm already at 60++ days of it.

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    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Hmm, maybe we should ask some of the folks at Deus Lo Vult. They have some nice ones they are developing.

    There was someone who offered to help with graphics. Can't seem to find the post.
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    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Great news, acegogo has offered to help with the graphics.

    I'm going to start yet another thread dedicated to titles and ancillaries.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
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  14. #14

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Wonderful! That means I can concentrate on my strong point, which is basically not doing much but complaining loudly. We must all go with our strengths!

    Actually though, I should have a decent first draft of a possible resource restructuring by the end of the weekend. I definitely need to get it done before SxSW starts, when I'll be going without sleep for the entire week of live music and partying here.

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    Lopus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    SxSW???

    What's that?

    On topic: What new resources are you considering?

  16. #16

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    South by Southwest music, film and interactive festival. Austin has lots of clubs with live music, we call it the "Live Music Capital of the World" because it has more live music clubs 7 nights a week than any other city in the world. Every year for the last 20, SxSW has hosted an international live music conference, with bands from all over the world playing 30-45 minute "showcases" over 4 days. Draws music industry people and celebrities (bah) from all over the world. Pete Townsend of The Who will be the keynote speaker this year at the opening banquet/party. Over 1300 bands will have showcases this year. Can't see them all; but from 4pm-2am every night from the 14th to the 18th, I can see a lot of them! And the independent film festival and interactive festival start on the 9th. Great time to see music and films I wouldn't otherwise get to see; but sleep will be a distant memory by the end of that week.

    On the resources, I hadn't thought about including new ones. Jut redistributing the existing ones, reducing the number of mostly useless timber and fur spots, and bringing back spices because they were so very important to the economies of the Middle Ages.

    Should I just try to redistribute them for 1-2 per province with maybe a 3rd near the really important cities? Or should I clump them together more creating areas of high value with 2-4 resources while some towns get nothing? What does everyone, especially Tornnight, think?

    Oh, and getting the monopoly trait doesn't seem to require a monopoly. Last night, playing Milan, I shipped my first and only merchant off to one of the silver mines near Cagliari. Withing a few turns he picked up the first in the monopolist line, capitalist. He ended up getting all the way to the third level. At the time, he was my only merchant and he was sitting on one of two of the same resource. I can't figure it out. Perhaps the TradingMonopoly trigger which is buried somewhere in the files is based on being the one merchant on a particular resource type? Maybe my merchant was the only one on silver at the time. If so, then that makes timber and furs and such more useful. Use them to start the mopopolist trait line then move somewhere more lucrative. At some point, I should unpack the data files and try to figure it out.
    Last edited by AverroŽs; March 02, 2007 at 05:27 AM.

  17. #17
    Lopus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    RE: Monopoly ... strange.
    RE: S&SW ... nice.
    RE: Resources ... spread out in logical placements would be my vote. But since torn is removing America (thus no access to chocolate) we could add more resources yes? What is the limit on number of resources anyway?

    Speaking of resources, we might want to hold off because I remember seeing that in patch 1.2
    Metallic Resource now support Mines
    I'm not certain what that means, but it do sound interesting neh?

  18. #18
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Hmm more mines? More Money.

    I think resources should be slightly more exclusive.

    1. It would give more benefits to trade rights.
    2. Merchants would be more interesting. It would be more of a challenge to
    acquire the best resources.

    I don't think provinces should automatically get a resource. If the area was truely barren then, no resource for you!

    I think the spread should be something like 0-3 with 3 resouces being for exceptional regions.
    0 - Barren Region
    1 - Average Region
    2 - Developed Region
    3 - Exceptional Region

    What do you think?
    Last edited by tornnight; March 02, 2007 at 05:08 PM.
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  19. #19
    Lopus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Can we add in salt? I believe in medieval Europe it was very important?

  20. #20
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta - Trade and Resources Discussion

    Was there a salt resource?
    Otherwise spice would do.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
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