Distance to Capital

[Wunderkind]

I think you have made an exceptional mod that adds to Medieval Total War tremendously. Expanding is more difficult, and fielding armies more costly and realistic.

However, I feel that the threshold for distance to capital penalty is set too high. I am currently playing a long campaign as house of Jimenez-Borga (Spain). I was tasked by the pope, and successfully completed two crusades. One to Antioch and the other to Alexandria. However the distance to capital to penalty for each was beyond extreme. It exceeded 250% in both cases. I even used the console to make my crusading general exceedingly popular, over 120% governor's influence, quick built a church and town hall, dropped the tax rate to low, and had an 80% garrison. None of this however could raise public order above 0%. I was victim of a civil revolt in 2 turns, and withdrew my forces to the sea, and attacked Cyprus, where the 1/2 distance castle modifier made holding the area possible, as distance penalty was only 125%.

The problem is even if I converted a crusade target to 100% catholicism, and eliminated the religious unrest penalty, which was also significant, no reasonable general would be able to hold a crusade target if your capital is in Spain, or likely France, England, and Denmark as well. I assume a similar problem will exist with the new world, although I am nowhere near that point in the game yet. This is compounded as holding these areas is mandatory for the win conditions for some European powers.

The fix I propose for this is simple lower the max modifier for SOF_distance to 25 or 30, that would result in a max distance penalty of 125% or 150% respectively (max in vanilla is 80%). This would maintain the same rapid distance penalties for holding large empires as in your basic mod, as well as keep castles twice as easy to hold. However, a token crusade target would be at least possible, although still exceedingly difficult for a Western European faction to hold against civil unrest. Then you could at least focus your worries on your new angry Muslim neighbors.

As a side note I would not lower the maximum for religious unrest, as there already is a long term counter to it in the form of priests/imans.

I hope you consider this for the next version.

Regardless, a superb mod. Thanks for your hard work.

[Re Berengario I]

I'm not very prone to change it. You have to decide between the Kingdom of Earth and the Kingdom of Heaven (Jerusalem). None of the western kingdoms never ruled historically on outremer.

[superfletch]

Yes, but there is no way in game terms to set up the kingdom of jerusalem. At some point you have to allow the game to be playable. I understand your desire and commitment to historical accuracy but this is ultimately a game and not a simulation. No one really wants to "play" a simulation. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's stuff like this that keeps me from continuing to play this mod. I really hope you will reconsider. I would really like to play this mod if crusading weren't impossible and pointless in game terms.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I agree with superfletch, it is a little too high. For example, the Byzantines or Turks can barely conquer their empires in real life because of the capital distance. I like the challenge of revolts in distant provinces, but there is no way to create an empire like the Romans or Turks had for any period of time.

Would it be possible to edit the distance to capital (DtC) modifier (or make a new -public order modifier) that goes away over time? For example, you take a distant province that has -80% public order from DtC. over time, the settlement is 'graphed' into your kingdom and the DtC modifier erodes to -50%.

Or if that isn't possible, give the player something like culture +/- pub order bonus. If you take an Islamic settlement with a Catholic faction, you would need to build European type culture buildings to effectively hold the settlement. Maybe couple this with a lower DtC modifier to keep players from easily taking the world, but at the same time making it possible to take distant lands if they want.

Or if you are set against all of that, why not make a crusader faction that functions like a horde faction? (no settlment needed to survive) This way we really could set up a Kingdom of Jerusalem.

[Re Berengario I]

Or if that isn't possible, give the player something like culture +/- pub order bonus. If you take an Islamic settlement with a Catholic faction, you would need to build European type culture buildings to effectively hold the settlement. Maybe couple this with a lower DtC modifier to keep players from easily taking the world, but at the same time making it possible to take distant lands if they want.

Or if you are set against all of that, why not make a crusader faction that functions like a horde faction? (no settlment needed to survive) This way we really could set up a Kingdom of Jerusalem.

You already can, just move your capital there. (Btw that's the reason why Constantinople were founded).

On the other hand the revision of the building trees could bring some historical flawored changes but nothing that won't be realistic and logic in game terms.

For the other stuff of "I don't want to play a simulation" I think Vanilla MTW2 already is a really good arcade game.

[Alatar98]

how hard would it be for people to eidit it on thier own

[Wunderkind]

If anyone does want to edit this on your own, I will explain how.

In the Medieval II Total War\data folder, open the file "descr_settlement_mechanics.xml" in notepad/wordpad.

Find the line <factor name="SOF_DISTANCE_TO_CAPITAL">

change the value in the line <pip_max value="xx"/>
whatever number you put in times 5 will equal the maximum penalty for distance to capital.

For example:
16=80% (Vanilla M2TW)
20=100%
25=125% (My Personal Choice)
30=150%
40=200%

Castles will still only have half the distance penalty as cities, however both will max out at the level of your choosing. For example with Toledo as your capital the following values occur:

Callari (Castle): 45%
Napoli (City): 115%
Salerno (Castle): 60%
Heraklion (City): 125%
Rhodos (Castle): 115%
Lefkosia (Castle): 125%

Thus as Spain, cities reach their maximum value around SE Italy, however Castles don't reach their maximum until around Cyprus.

Use this data as you wish.

[Szun]

so the answer is ..jerusalem and suroundings = castles!

[Siculus]

After reading your post I did a survey of the distance modifier in various mods. The max modifier for distance to capital in Anno Domini is 90, which works out to a increase of 450% to unrest, as you state. Deus Lo Vult, The Long Road, and Road to Jerusalem leave the max modifer at the same level as Vanilla MTW II--16, which would be 80%.

I agree with Re Berengario I that the West did not hold on in the Levant. Nevertheless, the Crusaders were defeated in the field and driven from the region after more than a century of survival. They were not driven out by internal uprisings six months after taking Jerusalem.

I think 90 is far too high. I'd say 20-25 would be more reasonable.

Siculus.

[Wunderkind]

To Szun, castles are an option for Jerusalem and its surroundings, however a problem does exist. The unrest in these regions is so high, and the build times so long (due to the 2 turn per year format) that holding one of these regions long enough to convert to a castle (4 turns at minimum) is an exercise in itself. Add to that the fact that you can't convert a settlement with stone walls or above to a castle, and any Crusade made on these areas later than say 1150, would result in settlements that are permanently towns, and thus equipped with a very high distance penalty.

[Re Berengario I]

the Crusaders were defeated in the field and driven from the region after more than a century of survival. They were not driven out by internal uprisings six months after taking Jerusalem.

The Crusaders weren't the Kingdom of France or of England. They had their own states with their capital there. Siculo-normans who were the only ones to possess directly some lands in Africa lost them almost soon because of the inhability to defend them effectively, just Venetia and Genoa did possess "colonies" but they were small (beside Crete) and easily represented by castles.

[Siculus]

Very true. But it is impossible to spin off a new kingdom/faction in the game. And taking Jerusalem always seems to be part of the victory condition.

If you switch your capital to Jersualem, won't the rest of your European Empire revolt?

I understand that in the end no one "won" in the real world. I know that in the end the Euros could not sustain themselves in the Levant. But they did manage it it early on, and that should be something you can do in MTW and your mod.

And please, keep in mind, if I didn't think it was very good I would not be playing it.

Siculus

[Re Berengario I]

And please, keep in mind, if I didn't think it was very good I would not be playing it.

Lol, but I'm not arguing with violent intentions

It' s just that moving the capital it's the way to go and it's the way it was used to historically.

We are used to see the capital in modern times like an istitutional place, in middle-age it was just were the royal court mostly resieded in.

For example during the spanish reconquista the capital moved from Leon to Burgos to Valladolid to Toledo to Segovia.

Richard Lionheart conquered Cyprus to use it as the starting point for his crusade.

You can also see how the AI moves very often the capital to accomodate it in the better central place.

Of course there is the risk that the european settlements could revolt (and they did in Lionheart case) but surely they have less religious problems and you have more time to react than an islamic, newly conquered settlement far away beyond the sea.

Saying that the actual penalties are not iscribed in the rock, they will be tuned but what I mean to affirm here is that it will always be hard as hell (but not impossible) to keep under control a city in "Outremer".

[vladyka jan]

Problem is, that in real, there was always something, that make possible holding distant lands for some (more) decades. Strong "colonial" army, good infrastructure etc...
In game, it isnt possible.

[Re Berengario I]

Problem is, that in real, there was always something, that make possible holding distant lands for some (more) decades. Strong "colonial" army, good infrastructure etc...
In game, it isnt possible.

Yep, we can see how good your theory is working in Baghdad today with all our modern good infrastructures and colonial armies

Colonies are easy to keep in low populated places (just like castles) with very little enemies around. Once you have nasty neighbours and a lot of people who look at you like a stranger ruler it's not so easy anymore.

[TheEmperorsPointyStick]

Yep, we can see how good your theory is working in Baghdad today with all our modern good infrastructures and colonial armies

Colonies are easy to keep in low populated places (just like castles) with very little enemies around. Once you have nasty neighbours and a lot of people who look at you like a stranger ruler it's not so easy anymore.

His theory may not be valid nowadays (there is no honor anymore), but it must have been in the era of the crusades. How else could the christians have held Jerusalem (a city ) for almost 90 years (1099-1187)? They may have founded their own state, but they still depended on their homelands for supplies and several lords of Jerusalem also owned lands in Europe. It's all good and well if it's hard to hold Jerusalem, but it shouldn't be impossible without relocating your capital. It'd be perfectly ok if public order were managable at 60-85%, but with your extreme DoC settings, it's hard to even get more than 0%.

Still, it's easily adjustable, so "To each his own.", I guess.

[vladyka jan]

Yep, we can see how good your theory is working in Baghdad today with all our modern good infrastructures and colonial armies

Colonies are easy to keep in low populated places (just like castles) with very little enemies around. Once you have nasty neighbours and a lot of people who look at you like a stranger ruler it's not so easy anymore.

Bah! They dont have any one from that list. Although, they still hold it.

I like hard game, but this challenge (hold jerusalem) is beyond all hope.
But... When the mongols come, maybe court shall leave to Holy lands and abandon old... :hmmm: Heh, just one way...

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

Very true. But it is impossible to spin off a new kingdom/faction in the game. And taking Jerusalem always seems to be part of the victory condition.

If you switch your capital to Jersualem, won't the rest of your European Empire revolt?

I understand that in the end no one "won" in the real world. I know that in the end the Euros could not sustain themselves in the Levant. But they did manage it it early on, and that should be something you can do in MTW and your mod.

And please, keep in mind, if I didn't think it was very good I would not be playing it.

Siculus

Just a crazy idea. What about an emerging crusader states faction. If the player or the AI manages to take one of the more important cities like Jerusalem or Antioch, a crusader states faction would take over that province and become initialy a vassal of the faction who succeded taking the land. Don't know if this is scriptable.

[Re Berengario I]

It's not in a clean way otherway I'd force to give holy lands to papal states and give just to that faction the templars and st.johns (as they were under the direct rule of the Pope).