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Thread: Turkish Tactics

  1. #1

    Default Turkish Tactics

    Im currently playing as the Turks H/H (LTC 2.1), year is 1100, and i'd like get some pointers from any experienced Turk player. I decided to attack the Egyptians early on (Taken Acre) and defeated a full stack Egyptian Army (By the looks of it, their strongest) Im currently seiging Jerusalem. The rest of the Egyptian cities have light garissons. I also have an alliance with the Byzantines. Im pretty sure i'll destroy the Egyptians as their cities are desirable to me. So im wondering where I should expand, and which other factions I should attack, which to ally with, and some battle tactics (Infantry seems to be weak) P.S. How do I increase my chances of getting the Assasins Guild? For some reason the enter button wont work.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Well, after you finish off with the Egyptians, you should turn against your allies, the Byzantines, and take their lands. In my Turkish campaigns I usually expand straight westward against them just so I can get Constantinople and control the Black Sea trading. It would be advisable for you to stay neutral or have an alliance with the Russians so they don't threaten your northern frontier (especially near Tibilisi) and so that they can help you (or vice versa) once the Mongolians and Timurds invade. I usually attack all the Catholic factions because...well, I want to Your biggest threat in the early game will be from the Hungarians, especially once they start to produce hussars as they are just a pain to defend against (nice attack/defense stats, decent charge, incredible morale). I would either try and wipe them out fast or obtain some type of neutrality agreement with them. As for tactics/army composition...

    Your early period field armies should be comprised solely of Sipahis. There are no units in the early game (besides the Byzantine Vardarotai and the Egyptian Mamluk Horse Archer) which can match these units in terms of tactical flexibility. Your basic strategy should be to use your Generals as Heavy Cavalry to repeatedly charge/pin the enemy main line while using your horse archers to circle the left and right flanks with fire at will on to weaken their lines with arrows. This type of tactic will destroy any infantry-based army composition. Make sure you try and kill the enemy general as soon as possible (preferably by sneaking one of your general units to the RIGHT flank and having a successful charge against the enemy general unit from that side). Your aim is to initiate a ROUT in the opposing army that will cascade down their line so you can just capture prisoners with your horse archers.

    Your siege-assault army should be composed of Janissary Heavy Infantry, Ottoman Infantry, and Dismounted Siphai Lancers. You can tech up to these units relatively fast (especially JHI as they only require a Dar Al-Imra [lvl 4 townhall] to produce). Keep in mind that JHI are not ideally suited for capturing walls as they weird halberds and will be massacred from arrow fire. Use your trebs to take breach open holes for your assault down the main avenue with your JHI instead. There is virtually no unit in this game that is as powerful in melee as JHI, don't let the stats fool you!

    Late game army composition will be a bit different as your Sipahi-based field army will become obsolete once gunpowder is discovered. Maintain a core of JHI (~6 units) with some supporting Dismounted Sipahi Lancers (~3 units). Also have 2 units of Janissary Archers and 2 units of Janissary Musketeers as missile support. Use 2 units of Qapukulus for heavy cavalry. This leaves you with...4 unit spaces left to fill (for a full stack, assuming you have 1 General's unit in the army). I usually place 2 units of Monster Bombards and 2 units of Cannons in the army at this point. You now will have a very tactically-flexible force that stand toe-to-toe against all European armies in the field and also be able to storm cities without any problems.

    Your tactics against the Mongols and Timurds, on the other hand...will be a bit different. I will post them tomorrow if you wish.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Please do! I hate it when the Mongols arrive, and your tactics are helpful!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    I'll copy-paste an old post I wrote about fighting the Mongols, as the Turks, on open ground.

    A good defense is the best offense.

    Field a few armies consisting of 1-2 generals, 5-8 Dismounted Sipahi Lancers, 4-7 Ottoman/Jannissary/Turkish Archers, and the rest with some Jannissary Heavy Infantry or light cavalry.

    Your goal with these armies is to reach the mountainous regions of Southeastern Anatolia, near Antioch and Edessa. Understand your environment. Notice the many chokepoints you can take advantage of. Herd the Mongols with shadowing forces and fully garrisoned cities through the valleys and mountain passes of Turkey. This will help to stretch their forces out and leave a few units isolated far and away from the main Mongol forces and unable to receive reinforcements should a battle arise.

    Attack a stack, making sure you're standing on a high, mountainous region. In the battle map, find a hilly, cliffside area where the Mongols will be restricted to climb and approach through one or two narrow passages. Here, you must deploy massed Dismounted Sipahi Lancers in deep ranks with guard mode turned on. Behind them, keep some backup infantry and then position your foot archers on high ground protected by natural cliff faces and spearmen. Set their arrows alight.

    The Mongols must navigate the tight passes, and the fastest troops will approach the lines first. These will be their horse archers. Using flaming arrows, crush these advance units. Hopefully they'll only be able to fire at the front of your spearmen and NOT the sides or the rear. Have your spearmen hold their ground even in the face of Mongolian arrow fire. Their job is to stay put. A general unit behind them is welcome to boost morale a bit.

    Soon, the Mongolian army will finally approach, but with depleted Horse archers. Attack their massed units at multiple points with flaming arrows and allow them to skirmish back - don't move your spearmen. With flaming arrows, you'll score more kills per volley and you'll have a slower rate of fire. It sounds bad, but it isn't. The Mongols will waste their arrows on your well armored spearmen and they'll run out fast, while you'll still have tons of arrows left to fire with. Once the Mongols have run out of arrows and you're still shooting fire arrows at them, they'll issue a cavalry charge. Hold the line at all costs. Reinforce with backup forces if necessary. Here is where the battle will be won or lost. Hold your ground, kill their general, and watch the mass rout ensue in a few minutes. They should be unable to break your Dismounted Sipahi Lancers and should retreat. Only their infantry will be left, and these can be handled easily by whatever means. Chase down routers with light cavalry if available. Execute captured soldiers.

    Once you are satisfied with the battle position you have taken, don't move from it. Or at least remember it. If needed, replace your battered force with a nearby stack and stand in the same spot. End turn, and the Mongols should hopefully attack one stack after another. You should be able to destroy 2-5 Mongol stacks this way before your army either routs or is too depleted to fight effectively. Simply replace and repeat. This is the cheapest method I believe in that the spearmean/archer armies are void of cavalry and pretty inexpensive. Easily replaceable too. It's my preferred method, and the Turks have the best spearmen to do the job.



    Notice that this is a totally infantry-based way of fighting the Mongols, and thus sounds suicidal - but if done correctly it's much safer and cheaper than facing them with full Sipahi Horse archer armies.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Thanks for the tips, especially the mongol crushing tactics.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Largest problem I've had with the Turks is ecomony wise. Every other faction I can make good money with, except the Turks. This is partly because of their over reliance on horse archers early game and how seperated and... sparse their cities are. Not to mention a delayed trade rights.

    I had real difficulty early game as the Turks, I couldn't field a decent army that didn't consist of (very expensive upkeep) horse archers. Their infantry sucks horribly for sieges (and defending), Turkish Archers are okay, and their spearmen are quite awful until Sarcen milita.

    Also, I try and solify an alliance with the Egypians, but they just end up stabbing me in the back (even with Ultimate AI 1.3). Seems like they're pre-disposed to dislike me. This leaves a big question... who are the Turks natural allies that can actually help them?

    Another problem was during sieges. How do you conduct an efficent siege early game as the Turks with such crappy infantry?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon View Post
    Please do! I hate it when the Mongols arrive, and your tactics are helpful!
    I use slightly different tactics then Sher Khan, so I will give you another alternative. I will be passing over siege-defense as those are fairly straight forward and they can be found all over the forums as well. Instead, I will focus on fighting the Mongols in the field.

    Mongols

    This is assuming that you have no gunpowder units (and you shouldn't unless you have moded the triggers).

    Campaign Map

    Just like Sher Khan, I firmly believe that a good defense is a good offense. Find the Mongol Horde and then attack them (try and avoid terrain favoring the Mongols, eg, you want to be on the hills). You should be somewhat careful as you will only really be able to take on about 2-3 stacks at a time, however, if you pursue this strategy correctly, you may be able to destroy the Horde with a single stack in a single turn (especially if they only have say, 3-6 stacks out).

    Army Composition


    1 General
    2 Qapukulus
    10 Janissary Archers (Don't substitute these units with Ottoman Infantry or Turkish Archers if at all possible)
    4 Dismounted Sipahi Lancers
    3 Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Pre-Battle Deployment

    This is the most crucial part of the battle, and if you don't do it correctly, you may very well lose the battle. The key strategy here is for you to use your Janissary Archers (referred to as JA from now on) and their Plant Stakes ability to negate the Mongol Horde's large cavalry contingents. You need to try and find a narrow area on the map to defend and plant stakes in somewhat equally-spaced intervals. It's okay to have gaps as you do not have enough archers to fill up the map with stakes. This strategy really calls for "funneling" the enemy cavalry through narrow gaps that are easily contained by your infantry while their troops suffer casualties to the stakes in the process. In any case, deploy your stakes with your archers a fair distance in front of your infantry. After you begin the battle, you will then pull the JAs so that they are out of range for the Mongol Horse Archers, forcing them to run through the stakes system in order to attack your army (note, you may have to deploy stakes almost near the center of the map, don't worry about the gaps, you just need to strategically place the stakes and use some of your troops as bait to lure the Mongols in).

    You should set up your army in the following manner (click to enlarge):


    Note: Diagram actually portrays ideal army positioning after battle begins.

    During the Battle

    While there are bound to be unexpected occurences that will force you to adapt on the spot, the general situation should be relatively similar across battles. After the deployment phase is complete, begin the battle and relocate your JA so that they are as shown in the diagram above. The ideal distance is one where your archers are still able to shoot at the Mongols when they are close to the stakes, but the Mongols are unable to shoot back. This will force them to pass through the stakes, which will reduce their numbers significantly. After they begin to pass through, rush forward your spear-infantry and hit them while they are still disorganized and you should be able to rout/kill the Mongol Horse Archers. Pull your Dismounted Sipahi Lancers (DSL) back to their original position and wait for another assault.

    The AI generally favors positioning its heavy cavalry on the flanks initially, however, they will reform before attacking (this is true for most mods I think) and penetrate down the center. Your Qapukulus are ideally suited for fighting against enemy cavalry units (heavily armored, good stats, wields a mace). Use your cavalry and your general to pin down the Mongolian heavy cavalry while rushing up your Janissary Heavy Infantry (JHI). Once your JHI are engaged, disengage your heavy cavalry and try to manuever them to the flanks so you can encircle the enemy forces and annihilate them that way. Your top priority right now should be to kill the enemy general for the demoralizing effect.

    Once you deal with the Mongolian cavalry, their infantry is left wide open for your General and Qapukulus to mop up. Remember to manuever your cavalry through the gap in the middle and not through your own stakes or else you will lose them!

    Rinse & repeat this process as needed depending on how many enemy stacks you are facing. At some point (after the 3rd stack) you will run out of arrows for your archers. This simply means that it's time for you to withdraw from the battle. Don't get too greedy

    The Timurid battle tactics will be forthcoming...
    Last edited by Zhou; February 27, 2007 at 07:52 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenil View Post
    Largest problem I've had with the Turks is ecomony wise. Every other faction I can make good money with, except the Turks. This is partly because of their over reliance on horse archers early game and how seperated and... sparse their cities are. Not to mention a delayed trade rights.

    I had real difficulty early game as the Turks, I couldn't field a decent army that didn't consist of (very expensive upkeep) horse archers. Their infantry sucks horribly for sieges (and defending), Turkish Archers are okay, and their spearmen are quite awful until Sarcen milita.

    Also, I try and solify an alliance with the Egypians, but they just end up stabbing me in the back (even with Ultimate AI 1.3). Seems like they're pre-disposed to dislike me. This leaves a big question... who are the Turks natural allies that can actually help them?

    Another problem was during sieges. How do you conduct an efficent siege early game as the Turks with such crappy infantry?
    You shouldn't be having too many problems with your economy unless you are creating horse archer armies that are too large for you to sustain. It doesn't take many horse archers for you to win battles against the AI. Also, in comparison to other cavalry units, your Turkomans and Sipahis are actually quite cheap (Sipahis are only 175 florins per turn compared to 250 florins per turn for Mailed Knights).

    Your basic army composition in the early game should be something similar to:

    3 Generals
    4 Sipahis

    With this type of army, you will be able to easily overcome anything the Byzantines and Egyptians can throw at you with a bit of micromanagement.

    To improve your economy you should really go for the provinces in lower Anatolia that are by the sea (the ones by Antioch) and those that made up the Crusader Kingdoms (Acre, Jeruslaem). Also, focus on building economic upgrades first (roads, farms, ports) before you build town guards (except in the case of Iconium, in which you want to rush the barracks line so you can produce Saracen Militia).

    So how does one account for the fact that the Turks have literally no good assault infantry in the early game? It's quite simple. Make very small armies to besiege rebel settlements to force them to attack your besieging army on the first turn. I usually use 1 General and 2-4 Sipahi units to accomplish this task. After you lure the Rebels out, they will be toast as they will be fighting the battle on YOUR terms. Use your General to good effect (do not be afraid of charging him constantly) and try and isolate and kill the enemy general as soon as possible. This shouldn't be that hard since most early Rebel generals are basically low-grade horse archers. Sweep your Sipahis to the flanks and charge headlong with your General into the middle of the enemy formation. After that, charge in your Sipahis on the flanks and rear of the enemy and you should be able to kill his general quickly, causing a chain rout.

    While you're expanding quickly, be sure to be pursuing the barracks-line and the town-hall line of buildings in Iconium so you can pump out Saracen Militia and JHI relatively soon in the campaign.

    As for your problems with dealing with Egypt, I don't think it's necessary for you to ally with them (although I personally have never had a problem with obtaining one...dunno why you are having problems). Simply keep a well-provisioned garrison in Iconium and Trebizond to stave off the Byzantines and pursue your war against the Egyptians as they have fairly rich lands.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    As soon as you take Adana, turn it into a village. Caesarea to the north is well positioned to reinforce both the Western and Southern borders of your empire, and if that's not enough you could take Aleppo and make that your primary citadel for Northern Syria.

    You'll want Constantinople and Nicea sooner or later, and if you manage your construction correctly, you'll have a chain of cities from Constantinople down to Adana and Antioch that'll be making 7000k florins each (if you develop Adana properly. It's too well positioned to be anything but a city for massive profit).

  10. #10

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhou View Post
    You should set up your army in the following manner (click to enlarge):


    Note: Diagram actually portrays ideal army positioning after battle begins.
    No horse archers?

    Asuming there are no gunpowder units at the time, they are good for pipering enemy units, or for arrow sandwiching enemy army from behind.
    Last edited by Trey Parker; March 08, 2007 at 12:21 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Well after playing a Turkish campaign until roughly turn 200 (one year per turn) in the Lands to Conquer 2.1 mod... I've come to the conclusion that they're a really fun nation that gets shafted with their position.

    Being on Anatolia means their travel time is horrendous to get anywhere, have to fight in mountainous terrain repeatedly and overrely on horse archers.

    Also, having an army of Siphias or really any horse archers in LTC 2.1 is unrealistic due to their very high upkeep (320 as opposed to 175). My army consisted mainly of infantry supported by horse archers and the backbone was really my Turkish archers giving way to Ottoman infantry.

    Turkey really does have issues with infantry based armies, which is unfornate since that's the way I tend to lean. Although Sarcen Militia were really great they couldn't stand up to the dismounted knights that started showing up.

    Anyway, I never did actually build Jannissaries although they were available when I abandoned my campaign. I screwed up my campaign by building a 'dread empire', which at first was a great idea my empire streached from Sarkel to Druzzo. Even the Mongols didn't bother me since they made their homeland Kiev.

    Yet... then it all started to fall apart. The Ultimate AI 1.3 that I use with LTC 2.1 played a big role in this, nations would refuse ceasefires and would always stay at war with me.

    Then everyone started to declare war.... and I mean everyone.

    I was only at war with Byzantium for basically the entire campaign and had pushed them to Hungry (which was a one castle nation) and they still held Constantinople due to my good graces of wanting to wait and make a historical Jannissary led-siege (my mistake came back to haunt me).

    Then it really fell apart.

    Russia attacked Sarkel which I easily defeated.

    Mongols were extremely passive and never did anything outside of Kiev.

    Venice attempted to take Synmra (sp?) but failed... they continued to harass me.

    Then Sicily started a war.

    Then the hammer fell all within 10 years.

    A Crusade to take Antioch started due to my "Despicable" reputation I have no doubts.

    Naturally every catholic faction except Scotland join the party. To be expected yeah?

    Then the second wave of the Mongols arrive... guess where?

    Sarkel.

    I had thought originally the Mongols were bugged and actually wanted them to do something, yet they picked the worse possible time to wake up.

    In the span of ten years the entire world with the exception of Scotland, Moors, and Eygpt (finally stayed as my ally... albeit they were do-nothing ones).

    Mongols pressing my northern border taking Sarkel and moving into my eastern terroritories. Papal States, Milan, and Venice siege Antioch, all are defeated. I defeat England and Hungry's crusading armies with my Sultan at a heavy cost.

    Where I really drew the line and quit was once I knocked someone out of the crusade they refused to ceasefire or would only ceasefire at the offer of no less than 100,000 florins.

    The global crusade continued and my empire crumbled. Even Jannissaries couldn't save me, so I gave up and vowed to never make a damnable 'dread empire' again.

    I'll be good from now on, I promise.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    dno much about the Turks but i do know that once you have taken Egypt go to Sicily and attavk the Pope, all the catholics will end up hating you anyway and the most threatening ones are the italians in greece when you take the Byzantines. hope this helps

  13. #13

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Gotta agree with Brenil about the Turkish economy, it is hard to maintain, my campaign is going fairly well at the moment, year is only 1170 though I have almost every catholic faction on my ass and russia seems to accept a ceasefire every turn, yet end up re-attacking me every time when I click "end turn", Ive taken the entire ME, conquered the Byzantines, taken out hungary and venice w/ my assasins and also conquered some of eastern europe. Im thinking of going west to Italy instead of north to Poland. Good idea? Still waiting on Timurid battle tactics from Zhou, (did a few custom battles with mongol tactics, worked pretty well)

  14. #14

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    I will post the Timurid battle tactics eventually...I've been busy building a new computer and preparing for finals. I had a few concepts that I wanted to use for the Timurids that were a bit crazy, but after running some custom tests, it seems like they were TOO crazy to actually work. Ugh.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    i hear what different people here are saying about the weak economy in the early game, i had the same problem. what i always like to do is to ally with the egyptians, then as soon as you are ready for war with the byzantines, then call a jihad on constantinople- that way, u can get the egyptians to help u go to war, as they almost always accept the jihad. then, as the byzanticnes stack their armies around their capitol, use a 1 ship navy to transport ur armies to cyprus and corinth, picking off their outer cities. of course, u have to time it right, but if done correctly, u can pick up 2 or 3 settlements this way.


    Keeper of the FAITH

  16. #16

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Parker View Post
    No horse archers?

    Asuming there are no gunpowder units at the time, they are good for pipering enemy units, or for arrow sandwiching enemy army from behind.
    I love horse archers normally, but they don't do well against the Mongols in this particularly strategy. They just require too much micromanagement, especially with stakes planted on the ground. It's better to limit the manueverability of the Mongolian armies by "funneling" them through the stake system and then attacking with Heavy Cavalry or Janissary infantry.

  17. #17
    The Moor's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Good tactics

  18. #18

    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    i usually try declaring cihads every 10 turns(if your imam(baraka) doesnt become a heretic) and join with all of my generals and army except some garrison units, and siege the city with all of them(so they become holy soldiers.) wait until the city surrenders, or lift the siege and siege again and wait more. since the cihad armies have no upkeep costs every turn you gain 30000+ florins, so you will have both money and 9(or more) full stacks of experiences soldiers. attack whoever you want. in 60 turn, before the mongols arrives, you will be victorius.
    Last edited by maerd2003; August 12, 2008 at 01:25 PM.

  19. #19
    Magno's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    wow
    No heroes, no villains, only conflicting perspectives with regards to a specific object.




  20. #20
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Turkish Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenil View Post
    Largest problem I've had with the Turks is ecomony wise. Every other faction I can make good money with, except the Turks. This is partly because of their over reliance on horse archers early game and how seperated and... sparse their cities are. Not to mention a delayed trade rights.

    I had real difficulty early game as the Turks, I couldn't field a decent army that didn't consist of (very expensive upkeep) horse archers. Their infantry sucks horribly for sieges (and defending), Turkish Archers are okay, and their spearmen are quite awful until Sarcen milita.

    Also, I try and solify an alliance with the Egypians, but they just end up stabbing me in the back (even with Ultimate AI 1.3). Seems like they're pre-disposed to dislike me. This leaves a big question... who are the Turks natural allies that can actually help them?
    The Moors, since you're very unlikely to go to war with them while they're also likely going to be fighting most of the Catholics. another would be Russia, though that's fairly useless until they actually reach the Black sea.

    Another problem was during sieges. How do you conduct an efficent siege early game as the Turks with such crappy infantry?
    Hashashim. they might be better than Chivaric Knights in terms of seige fights.

    As for the horse archers, their lower level HA isn't very expensive upkeep wise. sure they're moral sucks and they're mostly useless in melee, but just some of them to add missile fire.

    a pure HA army is very very tough to beat on the field.

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