TLR v1.9 Beta - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

[Borluc]

Byzantium infantry balance was one of the stated changes in the beta notes, yet it seems to me that they are now just the weakest overall faction in the game. The V guard was able to beat almost any other infantry in the game and now they are just average. Feudal knights tear them apart.

Also, it seems like the Turks have been nerfed terribly.

[tornnight]

You are right. Something is off. I'll do some testing to fix it.

[Callawyn]

When working unit balance, try increasing unit hitpoints across the board. Combat lasts longer, and units don't vaporize when successfully charged like they do when they only have 1 hp per character. "Hardgame" mod has 2 hitpoints for all infantry/archers, 3 hitpoints for cavalry, and 4 for generals. Definitely gives the combat a different feel.

Oddly enough, you'd think that with 4 hitpoint bodyguards, +2 for the general himself, that generals would be just about invincible, but just the opposite is the case. With all units having at least 2 hp, you can't use your general to take out half the enemy army in every battle the way you normally can. They tend to survive the charge and the bodyguard takes heavy damage when trying to withdraw.

[tornnight]

Problem with increasing hitpoints is that arrow attacks start to become unrealistic.

For example, you need at least 2 volleys to kill anyone.

Armor/Skill is the way to go. I'm just waiting for Patch 1.2 to revisit the balance again.

[Condottiere SOG]

Problem with increasing hitpoints is that arrow attacks start to become unrealistic.

For example, you need at least 2 volleys to kill anyone.

Armor/Skill is the way to go. I'm just waiting for Patch 1.2 to revisit the balance again.

In my modification, most projectiles do at least 5hp damage, which is the max a person can have if they start off with 2hp and gain three tiers of experience. I see people dropping, all the time, on the first volley. You have to adjust the projectiles file to respond accordingly, so you don't need two volleys. If you don't change the file, what you have said becomes true.

[Callawyn]

In Hardgame mod, my missile units regularly achieved good kill numbers, despite the extra hitpoints for all units. Battles did last longer though and their was some trouble with missile units running out of ammo, but this is something you can modify as well.

Anyway, just an idea, worth playing around with it to see if you like the results.

[tornnight]

In my modification, most projectiles do at least 5hp damage, which is the max a person can have if they start off with 2hp and gain three tiers of experience. I see people dropping, all the time, on the first volley. You have to adjust the projectiles file to respond accordingly, so you don't need two volleys. If you don't change the file, what you have said becomes true.

descr_projectile.txt

Which did you modify?

One of these?
damage
damage_to_troops

damage seems to be the damage to walls, etc. All regular projectiles have it set to 0.
However, damage_to_troops is only used for siege type projectiles.

[Condottiere SOG]

damage_to_troops. This seems to work. Damage does damage to everything the same.

I have been wondering it axe units could have the damage_to_buildings stat. I think you would have to modify the secondary weapon, opposable only to gateways.

Anyway, there you are.

[onefistedboxer]

I like the battle mechanics more in beta 6 - more polished.

The English knights cost less than the armored swordsmen but are better in every way, and have bonus against armour.

In a battle between the French noble Knights (identical to english knights) and the more expensive armoured swordsmen noble knights win by a long way. I think its slightly unfare to give the poleaxe units such a high attack when they already have the armour piercing attribute - but they work pretty well so far.

Maybe make the armoured swordsmen cheaper.

[tornnight]

I like the battle mechanics more in beta 6 - more polished.

The English knights cost less than the armored swordsmen but are better in every way, and have bonus against armour.

In a battle between the French noble Knights (identical to english knights) and the more expensive armoured swordsmen noble knights win by a long way. I think its slightly unfare to give the poleaxe units such a high attack when they already have the armour piercing attribute - but they work pretty well so far.

Maybe make the armoured swordsmen cheaper.

I'm a little confused. What you said doesn't match the settings.

In order of strength and location in the build tree.
Noble Knights cost 779, upkeep 259
English Knights cost 758, upkeep 252
Armored Swordsmen cost 701, upkeep 233

In order of strength and location in the build tree and cost
Noble Knights > English Knights > Armored Swordsmen

English Knights are higher up in the build tree than Armoured Swordsmen which is why they are stronger.

[onefistedboxer]

I should of mentioned that i was going by the custom battle settings as ive not started a campaign.

I think that sounds about right for the campaign but in custom battle the knights are cheaper than the Armored Swordsmen.

Out of interest is there a way to make units cheaper over time.

[tornnight]

Huh. I got to check the custom battles then.

Actually there might be. Recruitement cost bonus. If you could link them to events somehow.

[onefistedboxer]

Are the dismounted conquistadors meant to be so average -i thought you could only get them very late on in the game.

they have identical attack, defence and charge to the dismounted feudal knights -who are available from the beginning.

I still find that the gunpowder weapons are not effective enough against armour -its still more effective to charge them with heavy slow troops than with light and fast troops. My personal preferance is to up their attack.

[tornnight]

Ohh. Thats something I missed. Conquistadors won't ever get enabled in the current release because of the missing Americas. Thanks, will fix.

Well, realistically Plate armor was made to stop bullets from arquebusiers. What does everyone else think?

Gunpowder weapons too weak?

[onefistedboxer]

Still custom battling...

The custom battle price for the new andalusian infantry is too high - i dont know if this is true of the campaign but in custom battle its higher than the more effective arab cavalry among others.

[Condottiere SOG]

Plate, particularly breastplates, up to today are made to be proofed against firearms. There are many breastplates which bear the mark of a round at point blank range. That is the proof that a breastplate can resist firearms. However, because these are hammered out, certain areas are better proofed than others. These armors were usually proofed with musket rounds and pistol shot, at point blank range. To date, very few breastplates can be proofed against rifles, which came into existence in the early to mid 15th century. In museum, many armors tell the story of the bullet in their markings. Armor, as a concept, is meant to protect the wearer from injury, it is not 'fullproof' or 'failsafe'. It is not a preventive versus injury.

Also, the French and Italians used Jinetes as well.

[tornnight]

Ohh man I just realized that the unit costs are in fact a little messed up. The shield cost too much. Lots to fix for this next release.

[tornnight]

Ok the issue is partly that the shield was costing too much. It was worth as much as a suite of chain mail.

However,
Andalusian infantry has 60 men
Arab Cavalry has 32 men
Thats why Arab Cavalry is less expensive.

I still need to rebalance Conquistadors.

[tornnight]

FYI,

The cost is computed using the values of the following:

attack, charge, armor, skill, shield, Missile, Horses, Health, Number of Men.

[Elric von Rabenfels]

I think the costs for the Andulusian Infantry are fitting - maybe 20-40 gold too much, but nothing more. Their kinda good armor needs to cost a lot, so the price is fitting.