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Thread: TLR v1.9 Beta - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

  1. #1
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default TLR v1.9 Beta - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    Unit Balance Issues Only

    The new EDU in v1.9B3 is generated programatically using various formulas.

    Basic Aims
    1. Each Animation has a delay that was balanced using the Balancer EDU (Sticked Post), which makes unit cards accurate.
    2. Each Weapon has a base attack value
    3. Each unit has a mental state (Base Morale, Discipline, Training) that affects their attack and defense skill.
    4. Their mental state is balanced according the build tree. The higher the building required the better mental state.
    5. Missile primary units have a weaker secondary melee attack because of their lack of training in their secondary weapon.
    6. Armor is equal to the depicted armor on the model.
    7. Unit prices are based on the unit's armor/skill/attack/number of soldiers/health/horses/missiles.

    Mental State Bonus formula:
    Attack Bonus = Defense Skill Bonus = Base Morale / 5;
    Attack Bonus = Defense Skill Bonus += Discipline (low -1 , normal 0, impetuous 0, disciplined 1)
    Attack Bonus = Defense Skill Bonus += Training (untrained -2 , trained 0, highly_trained 2)

    Benefits of the new EDU:
    1. Armor upgrades work correctly and are very important.
    2. Experience (Valor) is accurate and important
    3. Unit Cards should accurately depict the strength of a unit. Two units that appear equally strong on the unit card should also be balanced in battle.
    4. Cavalry Charges are strong but beware of spearmen. The frontline of spearmen can get overrun in a charge, but once they recover, your cavalry is in trouble. Pikemen are safe from frontal charges.
    5. Unit prices and upkeep are accurate across the board.
    Last edited by tornnight; February 21, 2007 at 10:06 PM.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
    Developer of The Long Road Modification

  2. #2

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Beta Download & Discussion

    Loading it up now, have you used point blanks edu as a reference - i am a big fan of his edu.

    It would be good if you could include burreks new units.

    Looking at the units i think it would be a good idea to boost the forlon hopes attack, defence, price and increase numbers to 90.

    The men at arms are way too overpowered - they are supposed to be untrained but well equiped, whilst feudal knights are underpowered.

    the gunpowder units could do with a boosted attack too

    Good work these are just first impressions - as ever your building edu is the best ive ever seen with all the event triggers.

  3. #3
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Beta Download & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by onefistedboxer View Post
    Loading it up now, have you used point blanks edu as a reference - i am a big fan of his edu.

    It would be good if you could include burreks new units.

    Looking at the units i think it would be a good idea to boost the forlon hopes attack, defence, price and increase numbers to 90.

    The men at arms are way too overpowered - they are supposed to be untrained but well equiped, whilst feudal knights are underpowered.

    the gunpowder units could do with a boosted attack too

    Good work these are just first impressions - as ever your building edu is the best ive ever seen with all the event triggers.
    Point blank has good ideas with his edu that I have encorporated into this one. However, I'm taking a different approach.

    1. I use balanced animation delays that provide accurate unit card numbers.
    2. This edu is generated by a program that computes the statistics via formulas. Weapons have a base attack. Their mental state, discipline, and training are then used to boost the base attack. There are a number of forumulas that go into play.

    If gunpowder units seem underpowered all I have to do is adjust the base attack value for that type (arquebusier, handgun, musketeer) and boom I can generate a new EDU in 1 second.

    The units are balanced according to their position in the build tree. The higher the building needed, the stronger they are. If a unit seems incorrectly positioned in the build tree, then it can be moved. It's statistics will get adjusted appropriately. Also, you should be able to glance at the unit card and get an accurate idea of the strength of the unit.

    Price is computed via forumula based on armor/skill/attack/horse/missle etc.

    Please see the stickied post on Unit Balance.
    Last edited by tornnight; February 21, 2007 at 08:54 AM.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
    Developer of The Long Road Modification

  4. #4

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Beta Download & Discussion

    Thanks for directing me 2 that thread - this all sounds very impressive!

    Another note is that i thought the knights that use the axes dont seem quite right - they lack a sheild and have a two handed weapon but the stats dont quite reflect this as the attack isnt particularaly high whilst the defence is

    - again i prefer my forlorn hope a bit stronger,two hp and 90 men?, - but thats a personal preferance

  5. #5
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Beta Download & Discussion

    Specifically which knights with axes?

    I'll look into the Forlorn Hope. That unit is a special case, not being in the standard build trees.

    Edit: Ohh I completely missed Forlorn Hope. Way underpowered.
    Last edited by tornnight; February 21, 2007 at 11:22 AM.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
    Developer of The Long Road Modification

  6. #6

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    The dismounted english/portugease/noble Knights - the ones with poleaxes.

    I just played a custom battle england vs hre. They stood infront front of me with 5 units of my longbow men firing on them.

    The passive ai was triggered because they had two units of pavise crossbow men

    I tried out the muskets and they were unaffective- even against gothic armour a similaraly sized unit of longbow men is more useful, i think due to reload times. It seems out of place to have these loud scary guns in the game if they are beaten by bows which are available so early on

  7. #7
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    Ok good. I did miss the difference between 1 handed and 2 handed axes. They will get a boost.

    Gunpowder weapons will also get a boost.

    These units were missed and will get upgraded.
    Forlorn Hope
    Famiglia Ducale

    Thanks.
    Last edited by tornnight; February 21, 2007 at 11:25 AM.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
    Developer of The Long Road Modification

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    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    In regards to,
    "The men at arms are way too overpowered - they are supposed to be untrained but well equiped, whilst feudal knights are underpowered."

    They are underpowered compared to other units of their era.
    For example, Dismounted Broken Lances vs. Dismounted Italian MAA.

    I guess we could argue that a knight is a knight and has the same training/skills no matter what era. That would require a complete restructure of the Barracks though. It would also make many units redundant.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
    Developer of The Long Road Modification

  9. #9
    Lopus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    I'm not sure if its just me, but I had this wonderful siege going on in Caernarvon on turn 18, I sent Billy-boy with 4 spear militia, 2 town militia, 6 peasant archers, and 2 welsh-spearmen mercs that I picked up, oh, and a peasant unit (to use with the battering ram).

    I was pretty amazed as the rain of arrows arcing up from within the castle slaughtered my peasants, my archers had moved forward to provide cover, but broke and ran within a few exchange of volleys. I think I need to have much better armored people next time I face the Welsh.

    How big is the range difference between the Welsh longbowmen and my peasant archers? Oh, by the way, congrats, first time I've seen the AI use fire arrows too. I actually enjoyed that loss.

  10. #10
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    Big difference. 180 vs 110
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
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    Lopus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by tornnight View Post
    Big difference. 180 vs 110
    Ouch!!! No wonder my boys got slaughtered. Oh well, time to rebuild a new army, and figure out how else to kill the darned Welsh. Maybe 2 waves (one after the other) would be better, but my casualties will be horrendous.

    All in all though, I love this version much better than the previous one.

  12. #12

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    Your right, in that the names dont have to determine how good a unit is and historical accuracy is way overrated but i think that there should be more to a tech tree than the units just getting better at a perfectly balanced rate, factions should get their best units at different times.

    If you gave units the ability to upgrade their armour fully you could create an incentive for the armour upgrades and keep balance. In this way for example the Norman Knights, who are supposed to be good quality troops, could be cheaper than men at arms and have lower defence, but keep their highly trained attributes and perhaps high attack, then they could be upgraded to the same armour as men at arms and become superior in every way but slow and expensive to recruit/equip.

    Then the men at arms could be used as quickly created troops and the upgraded Norman Knights as part of well prepared armies - making battles more diverse.

    But i realise this is a big ask!!

    also the religious fanatics have a really low attack when its normally high.

  13. #13
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by onefistedboxer View Post
    Your right, in that the names dont have to determine how good a unit is and historical accuracy is way overrated but i think that there should be more to a tech tree than the units just getting better at a perfectly balanced rate, factions should get their best units at different times.

    If you gave units the ability to upgrade their armour fully you could create an incentive for the armour upgrades and keep balance. In this way for example the Norman Knights, who are supposed to be good quality troops, could be cheaper than men at arms and have lower defence, but keep their highly trained attributes and perhaps high attack, then they could be upgraded to the same armour as men at arms and become superior in every way but slow and expensive to recruit/equip.

    Then the men at arms could be used as quickly created troops and the upgraded Norman Knights as part of well prepared armies - making battles more diverse.

    But i realise this is a big ask!!

    also the religious fanatics have a really low attack when its normally high.
    I agree that diversity is important. I believe that is accomplished with the various weapons / abilities / and armor levels of units at equal tiers. Besides, the true win of a battle should be decided mostly by tactics not numbers on a unit card.

    I can't give units higher abilities to upgrade armor without someone to skin a new upgraded version of the unit. Quite a bit of work.

    Religous fanatics are untrained fanatical peasants. They should be weak.

    Remember, previous stats were skewed because they had to deal with the unbalanced animations. With that issue gone, now stats can make more sense.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
    Developer of The Long Road Modification

  14. #14

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    oh i see i thought that the armour system worked on its own - i forgot about the extra textures.

    Do you think a better way to work on the unit edu in this beta would be to post it as an attachment as you change it so we can test it?

  15. #15
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    Yep I can do that. I'll post one tonight before 8:00pm EST.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
    Developer of The Long Road Modification

  16. #16

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    By the way you might want to get out an early version of burreks units with these edu's so we can test them on custom battles before you release them on the building edu.

  17. #17

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    Quick note : The swiss pikemen are no loger the exeptional pikemen they once were, their attack is now lower than normal pikemen.

    The byzantine varangian guard attack is now lower than normal knights - they used to have one of the highest because of their axes.The byzantine swordsmen have quite low stats.

  18. #18
    tornnight's Avatar Forum Bot
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    I agree with swiss pikemen. and byzantium units.

    Byzantium swordsmen type units were accidently grouped under militia because they used to be recruited by city settlements.
    "The first casualty when war comes, is truth." - Hiram Johnson
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  19. #19
    Irishmafia2020's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    Will you have an update addresses these new balance concerns soon?

  20. #20

    Default Re: TLR v1.9 Beta 3 - Unit Balance / EDU Discussion

    Your battle mecanics really need work, the passive ai is a real problem.

    In a test Janisary musketeers vs a russian axe unit:

    i set the janisaries in a two man deep line, the russians walked forward and once they were in range i clicked to open fire, the russians kept walking forward but my janisarries wouldn't fire.

    I waited for a couple of mins on high speed but nothing, the russians stopped in front of the janissaries and didn't move the whole time.

    I reformed the janisaries into a line 4 men deep and they started firing, after about five volleys the russians decided they wanted to attack and charged.

    You might want to use darths battleconfigs and edit that for now.

    On unit balance the danish axemen all have much lower attack than knights which i thought was odd because attack is their strong point.

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