PORTUGUESE Character Names

[Cururu]

Tulius, Ludicus and Manji,

Thanks for the info on the relation to my family names, that was interesting

BTW, is there any way you can select names automatically for certain kinds of characters? This way merchants could have Portuguese names like Baltazar and Belquior... Anyway just a suggestion

Tulius,

The mod is progressing slowly... The worst part is to populate the map with armies... I've been playing it, but not often. When each kingdom gets about 30 provinces each, things start to become really fun, because then armies become huge! The other day the Kingdom of Navarra was sending wave after wave of Full stacked armies in an attempt to defeat the valorous Portuguese troops under my command!

[otark]

@Ludicus

Look here: http://www.penitents.org/saintsdirectory.htm, there is Balthasar.
http://www.geneall.net/P/fam_page.php?id=1542:
"Nome próprio que parece derivar do assírio "Bel sar uxur", (Bel, abrigo do rei) ou do caldeu. Na transcrição hebraica deu Balxatzar, na grega Balthásar e na latina Balthasar.
Sendo, na tradição bíblica, o nome de um dos reis magos que adorou o Menino Jesus em Belém, popularizou-se o seu uso e veio a ser adoptado como apelido por diversas famílias, sem que exista qualquer relação de parentesco entre si."

The only possible link to Jews is Hebrew transcription. But the main point is
that it's not "biblical" tradition because the three mages (sages) are nameless in New Testament. They had become Kings and obtained names Caspar (Gaspar), Melchior and Balthasar in Rheinland in Middle Ages. Obviously, they did it without any help of Jews.

[Tulius Hostilius]

@Tulius Hostilius

Well, the same name can't be Jewish in 15th and Catholic in XVII!
If you'll acknowledge that Balthasar don't sounds Jewish for you any more I'll be fully satisfied.

And also in the last post…

Otark, are you still chewing the same bone? Or just joking?

Did you read my post #94, in July 09, 2007, 09:59 AM? Almost 3 days ago?

Common… read it!!!

Do you want that I repeat myself? It’s kind of boring!!!

I don’t like to quote myself, but, from #94:

“And I would say it again… for me, in a medieval context… It sounds to much “Jewish”… and I already said… I can be wrong here…
And Ludicus already made some corrections to my post.

I don’t know if Baltazar it is Jewish or not, never studied the issue. But if it is not Jewish certainly seems from Semitic origins. It has the prefix “Lord/Master”; like Hannibal as the same suffix. On the other side Baltazar is a biblical name (with this I mean that appears on the Bible), in various forms, the most known is in Mateus (if I remember well), when he talks about the 3 wise men (didn’t check this but we can confirm it quite quickly). I also think that there is another reference to that name.

Back to late medieval ages, or early modern, I remember that the name appears in a document as a reference to a Jewish merchant. This doesn’t prove anything… but… Like riquinh0 said, it would be strange to have a king or even a noble with the name Baltazar.”

I guess that I said the essential in this post #94. And you already told here that you read Mateus and you didn’t found Baltazar! Ok? Nice search.

Btw you probably found one Belshazzar (Bel-Shar-Usur in Akkadian; Baltasar or Balthasar in Greek) in the book of Daniel (I am sure that you can find it), and, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1979, volume 1, page 962, he was the eldest son of Nabomidus, king of Babylon (555-539). According to the same volume, in page 177, Akkadian is a Semitic language (you can also ask that to an Arab; because I don’t know, I don’t speak Akkadian, it’s an extinct language; but all my sources seem to agree on this).

Acording to Enciclopédia Luso-Brasileira da Cultura, volume 3, pages 458-459, Bel-Shar-Usur means “Bel protects the king” (remember post #94? Bel/Bal/Baal and variants mean Lord/master or something like that), but in this Enciclopédia he is son of Nabudocodonosor in Daniel 5,2 (here checked with Daniel, and indeed says it). It’s also the Babylonic name of Daniel (see 1,7 and 2,26).

Backing to Encyclopaedia Britannica, now in IX, page 980, Three Wise Men, also known as Magi, says that the tradition of the name Balthazar only appeared in the VIII century in the west (you already said something similar).

I know that Encyclopaedias have only brief synthesis and aren’t always the “state of the art” but they were the only quick tools that I had here in my office.

I was hoping that you don’t drag this issue here. This will lead us to out off-topic. If you want to talk about his you can open a new thread in Vestigia Vetustatis, and you will find me there, and probably with some more people that can know something else about this issue.

[otark]

I take it as your way of telling: yes, I was wrong.

[Manji]

Jewish or not, Baltazar was never a common name in the period covered by the CNP (from early medieval age to Renaissance) hence, like Guilherme, it shouldn't be present. (this, of course, if we follow the same principle. If not then almost all portuguese names should be added...)

For example, "Frederico", "Bruno", "Guilherme", weren't common names in Portugal and it's occurrence only showed some relevance after the 18th century; adding it to the list would be wrong, regardless of it's ethnic origin.

[Tulius Hostilius]

I take it as your way of telling: yes, I was wrong.

Yes. Yes, finally you proved your point!!! I am wrong about something, whatever that is. Good for you!!!

And, yes, finally I understood that you don’t read my posts, or that you just pick some sentences out of context to pick a bone.

But once for all, so that we can finalise this hard of hearing talk, say it: what did I said wrong and did not corrected myself? It was about Baltazar? Or about what? Give one last taste a throw the old bone away.

OK? Go… go for it… click on the search button… Google it… Wiki it… or even Sca it… but when you come back be precise. Don’t take an idea for a thesis. Don’t use historical sources without criticism. And, above all, don’t shoot every living soul.

[Ludicus]

Jewish or not, Baltazar was never a common name in the period covered by the CNP

@Manji
True;good point.

[otark]

@Tulius Hostilius

Your attempts to avoid the direct answer are quite helpless since everyone here well aware of the subject of our dispute. I've produced my proofs. Are you still think Baltazar is Jewish name or not? It's simple: yes or no.

@Ludicus
I've pointed that out long ago and several times.

[Tulius Hostilius]

@Tulius Hostilius

Your attempts to avoid the direct answer are quite helpless since everyone here well aware of the subject of our dispute. I've produced my proofs. Are you still think Baltazar is Jewish name or not? It's simple: yes or no.

@Ludicus
I've pointed that out long ago and several times.

Avoiding? Ok.
Your post is #148. Did you read my post #94? Almost #50 post later!!! It’s a big bone!!! I will quote myself again:

“And I would say it again… for me, in a medieval context… It sounds to much “Jewish”… and I already said… I can be wrong here…
And Ludicus already made some corrections to my post.”

Do you want it more clear?

I will try it:
1. To me it sounds “Jewish” in medieval context. I don’t know if it is or not. The only proof was a list presented by Ludicus. The name is not in the list.
2. Origins seem Semitic, as we both now seem to agree.
3. We also seem to agree that it should NOT be in the file.

Is this sufficient clear to you? Or the bone has still some meat?

History is not a court, it is not black or white, yes or no. There are too many grey areas my dear friend. There are always more gaps than answers in our common past. I hope that someday you will learn that. If not… all my words here were in vain…

And,
Goodbye to this issue.

[Ludicus]

There are always more gaps than answers in our common past.

Well said.

[otark]

@Tulius Hostilius

I fail to see possible relation between your lofty phrases and our little dispute. I remind you:

"About the list: I saw it quite quickly. I didn’t like the name “Baltazar”. It sounds to much “Jewish” (disclaimer: I don’t have anything agaist Jewish people). I believe that in this thread someone had already discussed the Jewish names."

As I happen to know it's not Jewish, I've pointed it out and gave quite undeniable proofs. But you've began behave yourself as an obstinate child.
That's your position:

1. To me it sounds “Jewish” in medieval context. I don’t know if it is or not. The only proof was a list presented by Ludicus. The name is not in the list.

Maybe that statement able shake your "lack of knowledge":
http//www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6650:
The names of the Magi are as uncertain as is their number. Among the Latins, from the seventh century, we find slight variants of the names, Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthasar; the Martyrology mentions St. Gaspar, on the first, St. Melchior, on the sixth, and St. Balthasar, on the eleventh of January (Acta SS., I, 8, 323, 664).

You perfectly well know I'm right, so you've resorted to banalities like "Here are always more gaps than answers in our common past". Yes, indeed. But it's just not the case.

[Manji]

Just a minor note @otark:

Regardless of being jewish or not, Baltazar was never a common name, not even in later eras. Guilherme, for example, the portuguese version of William, (the phonetics came from French/Dutch "Wilhelm") was never common until the 20th century; it would be bizarre to have a merchant, a priest or even a prince called "Guilherme" or "Baltazar", that's all there is to it, IMHO.

Just a general note, I'm sorry I couldn't keep up with my promise, work really doesn't allow me to have any free time to devote to this right now.

[Halbard]

a common surname in the medieval ages in Portugal is Fragoso (dunno if its been mentioned already). In Old Portuguese, Fragoso means "tough", or "the one like rock". just a little contribution