Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Aztec language

  1. #1
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,099

    Default Aztec language

    Even though I doubt we'll ever get this far, it's good to know that the Aztecs' language is not only not forgotten, but still living and breathing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Nahuatl

    I can't stress enough how unimportant this is to me right now, compared to Arabic, which is our top priority at the moment.
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  2. #2
    big_feef's Avatar Ordinarius
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Blanco, Texas
    Posts
    798

    Default Re: Aztec language

    Well, I'm sure I can help out with this to a certain extent; I do live in Mexico after all. Unfortunately, Nahuatl is spoken mainly in Central Mexico and I live in the Southern Yucatan Peninsula were Maya is the dominant indigenous language.

    But, I do know several people who grew up speaking Nahuatl; the problem would be convincing them to do voice overs for a game that ultimately deals with the Spanish Invasion of Mexico. That time period and its events are ingrained in the psyche of most Mexicans, especially those of Nahuatl/Maya descent, as being something akin to the Holocaust. Most will likely see is as trivialising that experience and react with anger. But, I can try...

    Edit: Actually, if you guys can use Maya instead of Nahuatl (similar linguistic structure, etc); that would be so much better... Those of Maya descent are much less xenophobic and much more integrated into the general society (which they dominate); in the Yucatan Peninsula at any rate.
    Last edited by big_feef; February 24, 2007 at 11:13 AM.
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools" - Thucydides



  3. #3
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,099

    Default Re: Aztec language

    I must say, I'm surprised to see someone offer their help like this.

    I understand the problem here, although it's not something I had counted on. Maybe you can convince these friends of yours by showing them what the Aztec's speech is like as of current - they share their voice samples with the Mongols, who in the game, speak cartoon Engrish. I'm afraid Mayan won't do, as far as language goes, but for voice acting, I'm open to suggestions. Who knows what the Aztec language sounded like in the middle ages? Who will protest when hearing it read by a Mayan, arguing it's historically inaccurate? ... I know I won't...
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  4. #4
    big_feef's Avatar Ordinarius
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Blanco, Texas
    Posts
    798

    Default Re: Aztec language

    If I show them the game, they'll definitely not do it... What I was thinking of doing is tell them that it's about an alternate history where the Aztecs actually invade Europe after defeating Cortez and company.

    My girlfriend, who is of Maya descent on one side of her family (and who has the Nahuatl name Meztli meaning moon), enjoyed watching me battle with the Aztecs in a custom battles. But when I explained to her what the game is about; she was not pleased. I get that response from several of my friends here who are interested in the game. The whole 'Conquering the New World' as a European power throws them off it.

    What I was planning to do, if I can convince anyone to actually do it, is have them read from a script and translate.

    Another problem is that, like a lot of the Mesoamerican languages, Nahuatl has a large amount of dialects; even today, the dialect of Nahuatl spoken is largely dependent on which village/town or group of villages/towns that you come from. While some are very similar and can by understand be those who live nearby; the differences can be large in certain cases, and that is dependent on how far away from each other the dialects are spoken. Maya has a similar problem, but not to the same extent as Nahuatl; since Maya is actually formally taught at high school and university levels here in Southern Mexico.
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools" - Thucydides



  5. #5
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,099

    Default Re: Aztec language

    Well... I get kind of annoyed with this game, too, because I can't play as the Swedes, but I can play as the Danes and destroy the Swedes. This, however, didn't even happen in real life (they whipped us a few times but we got back at them eventually), and doing this also leaves me rather unsatisfied... I think many people who play this game do so just to play as a minor faction that didn't in fact conquer the world in real life and bring them to glory, and it's fun to imagine what the world have been like if all of Europe had been conquered by the Danes, for example, or by the Scots. It's too bad you don't get this opportunity with the Aztecs, I think all of us would have enjoyed playing them and kicking Cortez' butt, not to mention the pope's... But I don't like the idea of you lying to your friends by telling them this is what the game is about, just to get this done.

    There seems to be a number of difficulties here, and while I'd love to just use Mayan instead of Nahuatl, that goes in the opposite direction of what we're trying to achieve with this mod. Does Nahuatl, in any form, not have any connection to the academic world?
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  6. #6
    big_feef's Avatar Ordinarius
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Blanco, Texas
    Posts
    798

    Default Re: Aztec language

    I was talking to one of the less xenophobic of the guys I know who speaks Nahuatl; and he still refused to do it, even after I told him it was about kicking Spain's butt with the Aztecs.

    You have to realise; for them, this subject is like the Jewish Holocaust of World War II. Even though it happened almost five centuries ago; the scars are still there and are still fresh. I too would love to see the Aztecs get proper voices; as I love the voices already added to the game by this project. The problem is that we're dealing with a people that still haven't completely accepted integration for the most part; and they treat certain aspects of their culture, especially their language and art, as something very precious.

    Having their language, art, and other cultural aspects mostly destroyed by Spanish priests way back when is probably the main reason they behave this way. And example of how bad the situation is: The Mexican Federal Government has been trying to enact certain cultural programs to enhance the image of Nahuatl/Aztec culture in the last several decades. For centuries, any association with 'Aztec Culture' always has had the connotation as being something barbaric and evil. Now, it's very common to hear Mexico referred to as 'La Tierra Azteca' (The Land of the Aztecs), the Mexican National Teams as 'El Conjunto Azteco' (The Aztec Group), etc... basically; Anything Mexican is being touted as being Aztec; even though about half of current Mexican territory was Maya.

    Most modern Nahuatl reject this completely and view it as something that is trying further pervert and pollute their culture; and go to great lengths to restrict the usage of the term 'Azteca'. The Maya, on the other hand, go to great lengths to promote their ancient heritage; and are making a killing from tourism.

    This means that trying to get someone to do this will be extremely difficult; even more so than I originally thought. The first problem is that I'm in the South; where very, very few people are of Nahuatl descent and would therefore speak it. The second is for reasons explained above: Nahuatls are by nature xenophobes and are very hesitant to share aspects of their culture with those they consider outsiders; which happens to be anyone who isn't Nahuatl.

    And unfortunately, the only academic programs I know of about Nahuatl are mostly restricted in the area of anthropology and archeology. The few government sponsored programs deal mostly with getting those who use the various dialects to use a common written format. There might be some non-Nahuatls who do speak the language proficiently (mostly academics as the Professor in Mayan Studies at my University told me); but finding them will only be the first chore.
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools" - Thucydides



  7. #7
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,099

    Default Re: Aztec language

    Well, what can I say. ARGH. I understand the problem, but I'd rather have the Aztecs keep speaking English with a Chinese accent than having them speak Mayan, or it'd be like having the Danish speak Russian (which is the case in vanilla M2TW, btw).
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  8. #8

    Default Re: Aztec language

    i think it's worth doing the aztecs in nahuatl. i agree that it is going to be a chore to find a professor who can translate for us, but didn't somebody do that for scottish?

    though, i do agree with you, beiss, that this is probably close to the bottom on the priority list (as it is, i have been playing M2TW since release and i have yet to reach the americas; playing 2 turns/year has everything to do with that).

  9. #9
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,099

    Default Re: Aztec language

    Same here.
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  10. #10
    DarkReborn's Avatar Libertus
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Zaragoza, Aragon, Spain
    Posts
    94

    Default Re: Aztec language

    Really do aztecs descendants think that we spanish are the same powerhungry monsters from 5 centuries ago?

    If it is, then my condolences to all aztecs descendants, we the spanish are good people
    Last edited by DarkReborn; March 04, 2007 at 06:47 PM.

  11. #11
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,099

    Default Re: Aztec language

    On another note, I wonder what Israelis think about Germans...
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  12. #12

    Default Re: Aztec language

    Quote Originally Posted by Beiss View Post
    On another note, I wonder what Israelis think about Germans...
    I think this thread could easily go the wrong way, with such sensitive topics.

    Brilliant mod, Beiss, absolutely superb.

    My 2 Cents:
    I agree with Big-Feef, i an easily see why the Aztecs/Mayans are so protective- Im Irish and Proud as Hell of my culture etc managing to survive English domination. But then we never suffered racial Genocide or such a determined effort to wipe out every single aspect of our culture.

    I probably would never do voices for a hypothetical game that effectively glorifies the English conquering Ireland.

    Which, technically, MTW2 does- the New World is spoken of as a resource, and is intended to be Conquered, enslaved, milked and used to fund wars in Europe. True to history yes, but not a pleasant re-run for an Aztec/Mayan.

    CA do a bit of talk about Islam/Christianity etc and not wanting to insult people- which is a good thing, and i support entirely. But i was personally surprised at the disregard for Aztec/Mayan descendents with the above emphasis on exploitation of the New World. And to add insult to injury, when i finally reached the New World, a bug caused their cities to use the Arabic model!

    But,in the end, i would perosnally LOVE to hear what Aztec sounds like- Aopocalyto was incredible fascinating for me from a cultural aspect. And if i heard more, and read information on the society itself in-game, then im sure that would only increase my interest in, and support of Aztec culture.

    Big_Feef, i suggest you explain things along the above lines- this game is an opportunity to spread interest, and support of, of possibly one of the most individualistic and interesting societies of all time. I think a LOT of european people (duh, not ALL) think Aztec/mayan culture has been wiped out and does not exist anymore.

    This is an opportunity to inform

    Cheers,
    HDK
    Last edited by Headlock; March 24, 2007 at 08:43 AM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]M2TW: SmokeMOD - Increased Musket/Artillary Smoke! (Included in DarthMod!)

  13. #13
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,099

    Default Re: Aztec language

    Good post.
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  14. #14
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    33,188

    Default Re: Aztec language

    Quote Originally Posted by big_feef View Post
    I was talking to one of the less xenophobic of the guys I know who speaks Nahuatl; and he still refused to do it, even after I told him it was about kicking Spain's butt with the Aztecs.

    You have to realise; for them, this subject is like the Jewish Holocaust of World War II. Even though it happened almost five centuries ago; the scars are still there and are still fresh. I too would love to see the Aztecs get proper voices; as I love the voices already added to the game by this project. The problem is that we're dealing with a people that still haven't completely accepted integration for the most part; and they treat certain aspects of their culture, especially their language and art, as something very precious.

    Having their language, art, and other cultural aspects mostly destroyed by Spanish priests way back when is probably the main reason they behave this way. And example of how bad the situation is: The Mexican Federal Government has been trying to enact certain cultural programs to enhance the image of Nahuatl/Aztec culture in the last several decades. For centuries, any association with 'Aztec Culture' always has had the connotation as being something barbaric and evil. Now, it's very common to hear Mexico referred to as 'La Tierra Azteca' (The Land of the Aztecs), the Mexican National Teams as 'El Conjunto Azteco' (The Aztec Group), etc... basically; Anything Mexican is being touted as being Aztec; even though about half of current Mexican territory was Maya.

    Most modern Nahuatl reject this completely and view it as something that is trying further pervert and pollute their culture; and go to great lengths to restrict the usage of the term 'Azteca'. The Maya, on the other hand, go to great lengths to promote their ancient heritage; and are making a killing from tourism.

    This means that trying to get someone to do this will be extremely difficult; even more so than I originally thought. The first problem is that I'm in the South; where very, very few people are of Nahuatl descent and would therefore speak it. The second is for reasons explained above: Nahuatls are by nature xenophobes and are very hesitant to share aspects of their culture with those they consider outsiders; which happens to be anyone who isn't Nahuatl.

    And unfortunately, the only academic programs I know of about Nahuatl are mostly restricted in the area of anthropology and archeology. The few government sponsored programs deal mostly with getting those who use the various dialects to use a common written format. There might be some non-Nahuatls who do speak the language proficiently (mostly academics as the Professor in Mayan Studies at my University told me); but finding them will only be the first chore.
    Yet it matters not. Almost every nation has experience a catastrophic massacre at the hands of another nation, and EVERY nation has enslaved others at one point or another.

    People need to get over it. I'm sick of all the whining. Their suffering is no more than anyone else's.

    Besides, at least they survived. The Cossacks didn't.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Aztec language

    Please stay on topic.

    This thread is about finding Aztec speakers willing to provide voices for mtw2.

    Start your own thread if you wish to discuss why, LMAO, "People need to get over it. I'm sick of all the whining. Their suffering is no more than anyone else's."

    Beiss, i think theres some kind of MesoAmerican studies dept in Most universities: try the biggies - Oxford, Harvard, etc. You never know....

    Cheers,
    HDK
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]M2TW: SmokeMOD - Increased Musket/Artillary Smoke! (Included in DarthMod!)

  16. #16
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,099

    Default Re: Aztec language

    Hopefully we'll find a solution to this eventually. Aztec is way down there as far as priorities go.
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  17. #17
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    33,188

    Default Re: Aztec language

    ... because the Aztecs are a normally non-playable faction anyway?

  18. #18
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,099

    Default Re: Aztec language

    That, and the fact that you can play a campaign for a long time and not even see them.
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

  19. #19

    Default Re: Aztec language

    from the Kingdoms blog:
    "Will the aztecs/native americans have their own distinct voices? I think in MTW2 they use the Mongol voice. Yes! The Native Americans will have new unique voices in Kingdoms."

    hopefully they don't just revoice the mongol sounds so we will have unique lines that we can make translations from


    i know, beiss, low on the priority list. besides kingdoms isn't due out for a while yet.

  20. #20
    Beiss's Avatar Nemo nascitur...
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,099

    Default Re: Aztec language

    This is good news. But we'll still need to translate and record the new speech.
    Under the patronage of Halie Satanus, Emperor of Ice Cream, in the house of wilpuri

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •