Greco-Baktria without thacians?

**XKiller** · February 03, 2007, 10:07 AM

First, let me thank you for the amazing historical accuracy this mod stands for.
But for the baktrian faction, I'm missing the thracian (and maybe illyrian) units.

I'm taking this great book as reference:

Propyläen- Weltgeschichte (Propyläen- World History)
Hochkulturen des mittleren und östlichen Asiens (Advanced cultures of the middle and eastern Asia)
Ullstein Verlag GmbH, Frankfurt a.M./ Berlin (1962)

babelfish supported translation:
...was together entrusted to native ones and Greeks the defense of the north border against the Nomads. The limes, which shielded Baktria and the Sogdiane, is not found yet. To its support...military colonies (Katoikien) were furnished now, which already under the Seleukids in the countries east Euphrates, in relation to the establishments with municipal law, enjoyed the priority. ...In the Katoikien settled not only the Macedon and Greek left, but also martial clans of the northern Balka. ...Thracians, Illyrians and Paionen are called, and of the latter one knows still the name of its Katoikie, Menapia, which was called after the bull or buffalo. From this Katoikien the armies were recruited, with which Euthydemos conquered the east-iranian neighbour countries, and his son Demetrios I. India. The connection of baktrian cavalry with Macedonian-Greek Phalanx and thracian light infantry nothing equivalent could advance toward in the middle east.

So shouldn't Baktria have at least thracian peltast mercs like Arche Seleukeia, or even better, regular thracian peltasts like Macedon and Getai?

**Teleklos Archelaou** · February 03, 2007, 11:37 AM

An interesting thought. But how would they have fought? In the ranks of other units like we have already, or in their traditional unit forms with their traditional costumes/armor/weapons/etc.? Does anyone know if Nikonorov says much about them (he having the only real book on the Baktrian military published)?

**XKiller** · February 03, 2007, 11:54 AM

Teleklos Archelaou:
But how would they have fought? In the ranks of other units like we have already, or in their traditional unit forms with their traditional costumes/armor/weapons/etc.?

The book only says that they were remnants of Alexanders armies and that they were "Leichtbewaffnete" (equipped with light weapons). I think the dacian_missile_peltastaithrakioi could represent them well, or not?

**Teleklos Archelaou** · February 03, 2007, 01:30 PM

Any idea where the evidence comes from? Archaeological? Literary?

**XKiller** · February 04, 2007, 05:48 AM

Teleklos Archelaou:
Any idea where the evidence comes from? Archaeological? Literary?

The only sources mentioned in the book are for the included graphics, pictures and maps. I can only name the author of the part I quoted above: Dr.phil. Franz Altheim, Professor der Alten Geschichte an der Freien Universität Berlin

**Keravnos** · February 09, 2007, 12:07 PM

Well as you probably have seen, we include Thraikioi Prodromoi not just Prodromoi. Don't worry, we know that Thraikians existed among the Baktrians, in my current campaign, I have a family member called "Triballos".

-a deffinite Thraikian name.

Now, so far as the other units you propose are concerned... "Phyletikoi Illyrioi" as a baktrian unit seems a bit off. We have barely enough evidence for the units you see in game as is. We DO have them, but I don't recall anything suggesting they organised themselves thus, as a separate entity, with its own army, etc, is a bit off. They were probably all hellenized completely within a generation or two, with only some certain characteristics of each nation remaining...

However, upon seeing your post, some good things may happen. Some things to suggest. Thanks for sharing.

**JD XKiller** · February 10, 2007, 08:17 AM

Keravnos:
Well as you probably have seen, we include Thraikioi Prodromoi

Yeah, I know, but in the book only thracian light infantry is mentioned explicitly. Hellenistic baktrian cavalry is not mentioned at all, but about the native baktrian nobles cavalry it says:
"... It was easy for the native nobility to provide the king with ten thousand horsemen in times of war. ..."
Sadly, the Propyläen books focus mainly, and that highly accurate, on political and cultural issues but not on military history.

Keravnos:
Now, so far as the other units you propose are concerned... "Phyletikoi Illyrioi" as a baktrian unit seems a bit off. We have barely enough evidence for the units you see in game as is. We DO have them, but I don't recall anything suggesting they organised themselves thus, as a separate entity, with its own army, etc, is a bit off. They were probably all hellenized completely within a generation or two, with only some certain characteristics of each nation remaining...

Illyrians are mentioned to have had Katoikien, from which the baktrian kings recruited their armies, but only the thracians are mentioned in the conclusion:
"... Der Verbindung von baktrischer Reiterei mit makedonisch- griechischer Phalanx und thrakischen Leichtbewaffneten konnte im Mittleren Osten militärisch nichts Gleichwertiges entgegentreten."
"... The connection of baktrian cavalry with Macedonian-Greek Phalanx and thracian light infantry nothing equivalent could advance toward in the middle east."

BTW: "Phyletikoi"?

, so could you explain, please?