Hamas attacks southern Israel

[PointOfViewGun]

The current Israeli government is gone once this war ends. Luckily, so is Hamas.

It won't be enough that the current government is enough. It's ideology of denying statehood to Palestine and continuous carving of their land needs to go. Otherwise Hamas will go and the relatives of the dead or maimed Gazans will form Hamas 2.0 in time.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It won't be enough that the current government is enough. It's ideology of denying statehood to Palestine and continuous carving of their land needs to go. Otherwise Hamas will go and the relatives of the dead or maimed Gazans will form Hamas 2.0 in time.

Most likely none of the parties in the current coalition will be in the next.

[mishkin]

five palestian civilians dead, a new anti-Semite terrorist in the area. and I don't believe that anyone in the Israeli government has raised this.

Netanyahu will not hold office again and may have a trial. No one will forget the 1,200 dead and we hope that somehow the kidnapped people will return to their homes. But as we have seen throughout Israel's history, in the name of self-defense they will continue to expand, soon Gaza will be openly theirs. Another victory, congratulations guys.

[PointOfViewGun]

Most likely none of the parties in the current coalition will be in the next.

Will the new government cease and dismantle all settlements withing West Bank and recognize Palestine as a state as a first step?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Will the new government cease and dismantle all settlements withing West Bank and recognize Palestine as a state as a first step?

Withdrawal without any negotiations or treaties is exactly how we got into the current mess. No.

[PointOfViewGun]

Withdrawal without any negotiations or treaties is exactly how we got into the current mess. No.

Basically you're saying that someone can continue to do something that's wrong and illegal if that person is not getting something in return for not doing it. OK.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Basically you're saying that someone can continue to do something that's wrong and illegal if that person is not getting something in return for not doing it. OK.

Basically I'm saying that if the palestinians want an independent state, they'll need to negotiate with the nation in control of the territory. Crazy concept, I know.

[Ludicus]

'This Is Terrorism': Pope Francis Says...

Here we’ve gone beyond war. This isn’t war anymore, this is terrorism.

Pope calls Gaza war 'terrorism,' but Vatican denies he said genocide.

One member of the Israeli delegation took issue with Pope Francis’s use of the word “terrorism” to describe the war, saying it is a “false equivalence,” suggesting that Francis was equating Hamas terrorism with legitimate Israeli self-defense.

Equating, equating, equating…sounds like a broken record.
----

Israel-Hamas war live: Four-day ceasefire leaves no time to meet Gaza's needs

Anyway. Now that a truce agreement is approaching... a Palestinian poet comes to mind, a poet who filled more stadiums with people listening to his poems than many footballers. The "Rita" of Darwish's poems was a Jewish woman he loved when he lived in Haifa.

Rita And the Rifle

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Between Rita and my eyes
There is a rifle
And whoever knows Rita
Kneels and plays
To the divinity in those honey-colored eyes
And I kissed Rita
When she was young
And I remember how she approached
And how my arm covered the loveliest of braids
And I remember Rita
The way a sparrow remembers its stream
Ah, Rita
Between us there are a million sparrows and images
And many a rendezvous
Fired at by a rifle
Rita's name was a feast in my mouth
Rita's body was a wedding in my blood
And I was lost in Rita for two years
And for two years she slept on my arm
And we made promises
Over the most beautiful of cups
And we burned in the wine of our lips
And we were born again
Ah, Rita!
What before this rifle could have turned my eyes from yours
Except a nap or two or honey-colored clouds?
Once upon a time
Oh, the silence of dusk
In the morning my moon migrated to a far place
Towards those honey-colored eyes
And the city swept away all the singers
And Rita
Between Rita and my eyes—
A rifle

Mahmoud Darwish: Poetry's State of Siege
Almog Behar Department of Literature, Tel Aviv University

Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish often wrote under siege: He wrote under the military government of the nascent State of Israel, when he was required to appear before government officials to prove that he had not left Haifa and was later imprisoned for leaving Haifa without permission in order to read poems at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
He wrote in Beirut, that in 1982 was bombarded (*) and besieged by the IDF; and he wrote during the Israeli incursion in Ramallah in 2002. Besides these real-time sieges, his poetry repeatedly returned to the moment of the arch-siege, to his village Al-Birweh, which was destroyed in 1948 when he was seven years old. He wrote about his family’s exile in Lebanon and their return as infiltrators a year later—or as “present absentees”—to his non-existent village in the Galilee: “I didn’t understand why they destroyed this world, and who destroyed it. I was a refugee in Lebanon, and now I am a refugee in my homeland.”


For the poet, the battle for memory is often no less important than the battle on the ground, because a lack of memory obliterates any reason to fight on the ground. This insight is best seen in the title of Darwish’s book about the siege of Beirut: "Memory for Forgetfulness".

He explained that he was “also the son of the Jewish civilization that existed in Palestine,” and accordingly, when there will be reconciliation between the Palestinians and the Jews, “the Jew will not be ashamed to find an Arab element in himself, and the Arab will not be ashamed to declare that he incorporates Jewish elements.”

-------
(*) On August 6, 1982, the anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima, Darwish was in Beirut. A new bomb had been deployed, which could collapse and level a twelve-story building by creating a vacuum. The poet recalls the bombing of the city, in "Memory for Forgetfulness"

On this day, on the anniversary of the Hiroshima bomb, they are trying out the vacuum bomb on our flesh and the experiment is successful.

Dec. 22, 2001- A Poet's Palestine as a Metaphor- New York Times

In March 2000 Yossi Sarid, who was then the education minister of Israel, suggested including a few of Mr. Darwish's poems in the Israeli high school curriculum. After right-wing members of President Ehud Barak's coalition government threatened a vote of no-confidence, Mr. Barak declared that ''Israel is not ready'' for Mr. Darwish's work.

''The Israelis do not want to teach students that there is a love story between an Arab poet and this land,'' Mr. Darwish said. ''I just wish they'd read me to enjoy my poetry, not as a representative of the enemy.''

[Cyclops]

Basically you're saying that someone can continue to do something that's wrong and illegal if that person is not getting something in return for not doing it. OK.

I think he's saying "Israel can defend itself from attack, and try to rescue hostages".

I don't think you can support Palestine by making stuff up about Israel. Its disgusting when pro Israeli or pro Palestinian advocates do it. The idiot journalist who made up lies about Hamas attackers and the gazillion babies did a disservice to the real victims, as do people who claim "every Palestinian is a terrorist". Likeiwse stating Israel is apartheid (it just isn't, I live in an apartheid state and I know what it looks like) or Israel is trying to kill all Palestinians" do their cause a disservice. Radical claims get attention for a short period, but lies stain the cause.

Hamas can go and die. We can't make a strong Palestine when Hamas is there, they need to go.

[Muizer]

This is utterly false. The world doesn't only exist between the two possibilities of demolishing Gaza and doing nothing about October 7.

Hamas being Hamas I am not at all convinced there's an alternative way for the IDF to remove them from power that would drastically reduce the loss of civilian lives. But feel free to make suggestions.

[Hobbes]

Hamas can go and die. We can't make a strong Palestine when Hamas is there, they need to go.

Why is Hamas so popular in Gaza? Join us next week on our show where we will try to answer this and other questions including, but not limited to, why do your hands get wet after you wash them and why does it hurt when you set yourself on fire.

[Ludicus]

...". Likeiwse stating Israel is apartheid (it just isn't, I live in an apartheid state and I know what it looks like).

where? allegations of apartheid by country

Israel is an apartheid regime - even the Times of Israel recognizes the fact. Palestinians will never be equal in Israel

70 years of state policies that discriminate against Arabs.

For those interested, Amnesty International has created a free 90-minute course called “Deconstructing Israel’s Apartheid Against Palestinians” Israel's apartheid against Palestinians

As far as Hamas is concerned, I'll come back to this tomorrow, although I've already mentioned the analogy between the Algerian resistance and that of Palestine in a previous post.#1188
In fact, there is a lot of literature on the subject.

[Hobbes]

where? allegations of apartheid by country

Israel is an apartheid regime - even the Times of Israel recognizes the fact. Palestinians will never be equal in Israel


As far as Hamas is concerned, I'll come back to this tomorrow, although I've already mentioned the analogy between the Algerian resistance and that of Palestine in a previous post.#1188
In fact, there is a lot of literature on the subject.

What's this stuff, sounds like a nuance and we don't take kindly to that here. Hamas = bad guys, Israel = good guys. When Israel tank goes boom and kills brown family this is ok because it's good guys doing it. When bad brown muslim blows up Isreali citizens it's bad because it's bad guys doing it. I know it sounds crazy but this is what many people really believe.

[PointOfViewGun]

Basically I'm saying that if the palestinians want an independent state, they'll need to negotiate with the nation in control of the territory. Crazy concept, I know.

I thought the concept of independence was inherent. At least its sold as such in the case of Israel. We have to accept Israel's existence at face value but require negotiations for Palestine's. Yeah, no.

I think he's saying "Israel can defend itself from attack, and try to rescue hostages".

I don't think you can support Palestine by making stuff up about Israel. Its disgusting when pro Israeli or pro Palestinian advocates do it. The idiot journalist who made up lies about Hamas attackers and the gazillion babies did a disservice to the real victims, as do people who claim "every Palestinian is a terrorist". Likeiwse stating Israel is apartheid (it just isn't, I live in an apartheid state and I know what it looks like) or Israel is trying to kill all Palestinians" do their cause a disservice. Radical claims get attention for a short period, but lies stain the cause.

Hamas can go and die. We can't make a strong Palestine when Hamas is there, they need to go.

What's actually disservice is here is to alter what people argue to create something you can argue against for no apparent reason. That doesn't support anyone's case either. Once again, you're obfuscating an issue where I was pointing out Israel's responsibility for West Bank and Palestine's statehood. Neither is tied to Hamas, though, Israel's policies concerning to them contribute to Hamas' existence.

Hamas being Hamas I am not at all convinced there's an alternative way for the IDF to remove them from power that would drastically reduce the loss of civilian lives. But feel free to make suggestions.

Multiple people already touched on this. I don't understand the insistence on keeping on asking about it while ignoring all the responses. That said, there are many degrees of responses a state can conduct; militarily, monetarily and politically. Israel could stop its policy to divide Gaza and West Bank. They could stop allowing bags full of money to be transferred to Hamas. They could stop doubling down on policies like settlements in West Bank that contributes greatly to any armed resistance. They could work on ways to make their blockade effective for arms. They could actually limit themselves to precision strikes and not level down entire neighborhoods. They could avoid hospitals, mosques/churches and schools in their strikes (even if Hamas elements inside them there are still plenty of other targets). Maybe avoid bombing the border area right after telling Gazans to leave for Egypt. They could choose not to cut off water and electricity to Gaza as well. Stopping the genocide rhetoric from the Netanyahu administration and other parts of the Knesset comes to mind as well. There is plenty Israel and the Israeli army could do for sure.

[sumskilz]

The idiot journalist who made up lies about Hamas attackers and the gazillion babies did a disservice to the real victims

Nobody really invented this, at least not any journalist. As far as I can tell, it was like the telephone game. Nicole Zedek from i24 said in a live broadcast, “Talking to some of the soldiers here, they say what they witnessed as they’ve been walking through these communities is bodies of babies with their heads cut off and families gunned down in their beds.” In a completely different broadcast, she said, “40 babies at least were taken out on gurneys.” In a later interview, Nir Barkat said, “We’ve seen just now... we’ve heard of 40 young boys. Some of them were burned alive. Some were beheaded. Some were shot in the head.” Tal Heinrich, a journalist who had been made a spokesperson for Netanyahu’s office reported “Toddlers, other babies, some of them with their heads cut off. This is what we are hearing from soldiers on the ground who dealt with the bodies.” These statements were conflated on social media as “40 babies were beheaded” which was repeated by some Israeli politicians.

When Israel tank goes boom and kills brown family this is ok because it's good guys doing it. When bad brown muslim blows up Isreali citizens it's bad because it's bad guys doing it. I know it sounds crazy but this is what many people really believe.

Nah, mostly that’s just pathetic rhetoric on your part. Attempts at racializing the conflict are ignorant.

White Israeli police officers oppressing brown Palestinian girl:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

White Jewish woman on an official visit to the UAE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Obviously, typical Israeli phenotypes range from those of Ethiopian Jews to those of the ethnic Russians who immigrated along with their Jewish relatives. DNA testing of family members was required to differentiate many of the Israeli victims of Hamas killed on October 7th from the bodies of perpetrators killed in plain clothes. In addition, a lot of Arab Israelis were killed by Hamas that day, including a woman wearing a hijab who was executed at close range.

See also: Muslim rescuer says Israel kibbutz bloodshed caused by attackers’ hate

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Jews truly are an interesting people, aren't they? Hated by the far-right for not being white, hated by the far-left for being white. Whether Jews are white or not depends on whether being white is seen as good or bad. Either way, Jews are seen as bad.

I thought the concept of independence was inherent. At least its sold as such in the case of Israel. We have to accept Israel's existence at face value but require negotiations for Palestine's. Yeah, no.

Israel already exists, so yes, its existence is something one needs to accept, unless you're proposing a war to exterminate the Jews it's not going anywhere.
As for independence being inherent, are we going to pretend there's no other group of people in the middle east trying to get independence?

[Infidel144]

Jews truly are an interesting people, aren't they? Hated by the far-right for not being white, hated by the far-left for being white. Whether Jews are white or not depends on whether being white is seen as good or bad. Either way, Jews are seen as bad.

Jews who do not accept Islam are the worst of creatures (98:6)...
This is amply demonstrated by Jews not playing by the rules in which Palestinians are allowed to make great slaughter in the land, but are safe from reprisal if they are in or around hospitals, mosques or schools. It is like tag.

Israel already exists, so yes, its existence is something one needs to accept, unless you're proposing a war to exterminate the Jews it's not going anywhere.

Alternatively, accept the status of a dhimmi, subjugated in humiliation and disgrace, as is commanded by Allah (9:29).

[Muizer]

Israel could stop its policy to divide Gaza and West Bank. They could stop allowing bags full of money to be transferred to Hamas. They could stop doubling down on policies like settlements in West Bank that contributes greatly to any armed resistance. They could work on ways to make their blockade effective for arms. They could actually limit themselves to precision strikes and not level down entire neighborhoods. They could avoid hospitals, mosques/churches and schools in their strikes (even if Hamas elements inside them there are still plenty of other targets). Maybe avoid bombing the border area right after telling Gazans to leave for Egypt. They could choose not to cut off water and electricity to Gaza as well. Stopping the genocide rhetoric from the Netanyahu administration and other parts of the Knesset comes to mind as well. There is plenty Israel and the Israeli army could do for sure.

This can be divided into several categories:

1) address the root cause of the wider conflict: Good idea, I'm all for it. But for this a partner with a constructive attitude is required. In Gaza at least Hamas is an insurmountable obstacle.
2) Non-violent options to curtail Hamas: Sanctions against tyrannical regimes tend to hit the general populace before they harm the regimes. A lose-lose situation.
3) Different military tactics: The only alternative that would actually depose Hamas that does not target buildings as such would be to send in Infantry first to clear out Gaza block by block, street by street, building by building and room by room. Hamas fighters will adopt hit and run tactics, blending into the civilian population, making everyone a potential target, and they will set off booby traps all over the place regardless of potential civilian victims or material damage. It will be carnage.
4) Change the rhetoric: If the radical right were sidelined and their rhetoric silenced, that would not actually make a difference to what's happening on the ground now, because the more limited goal of eliminating Hamas has much broader support among Israelis than the radical right's vision of the future.

I do agree btw that the IDF is not doing everything it can to ensure Gazans retain access to clean water, food, shelter and healthcare. Again though not that easy. Anything the military would organize, even if purely for the benefit of Gazans, would become a target for Hamas. That's the whole problem: Hamas is an organization that is uncompromising and will only do what they believe furthers their cause no matter the cost.

[PointOfViewGun]

Israel already exists, so yes, its existence is something one needs to accept, unless you're proposing a war to exterminate the Jews it's not going anywhere.
As for independence being inherent, are we going to pretend there's no other group of people in the middle east trying to get independence?

So does Palestine. Israeli understanding of state recognition is only one-sided yet it cries about other's recognition of Israel at every opportunity.

1) address the root cause of the wider conflict: Good idea, I'm all for it. But for this a partner with a constructive attitude is required. In Gaza at least Hamas is an insurmountable obstacle.

Addressing the root cause doesn't require a constructive partner. It doesn't require anything at all. It should have been the default position.

2) Non-violent options to curtail Hamas: Sanctions against tyrannical regimes tend to hit the general populace before they harm the regimes. A lose-lose situation.

Drastic sanctions is one thing, not allowing suitcases of money into Gaza is an other. There are many levels in between that Israel can utilize without affecting the local populace.

3) Different military tactics: The only alternative that would actually depose Hamas that does not target buildings as such would be to send in Infantry first to clear out Gaza block by block, street by street, building by building and room by room. Hamas fighters will adopt hit and run tactics, blending into the civilian population, making everyone a potential target, and they will set off booby traps all over the place regardless of potential civilian victims or material damage. It will be carnage.

Leveling entire neighborhoods does not depose Hamas. It feeds it. You're basically trying to justify excessive bombing. If they wanted to bomb the hell out of Gaza they could still employ many different tactics to get the civilians out of there. House them in southern Israel. They're Israel's responsibility, not Egypt's. Even better move them to Israeli settlements in West Bank just as you empty out the settlers. Telling people to move south while your bomb all around or giving them just a few hours to clear out through the rubble is not a genuine option. There is no sound justification for the military tactic Israel is using right now.

4) Change the rhetoric: If the radical right were sidelined and their rhetoric silenced, that would not actually make a difference to what's happening on the ground now, because the more limited goal of eliminating Hamas has much broader support among Israelis than the radical right's vision of the future.

Is Netanyahu considered radical-right? One of the most extreme statements (his reference to Amolek where women and children were to be killed) about dealing with Gazans was uttered by him. One of his party members, Kallner, suggested a new Nakba that would overshadow the one from 1948. It was Israeli president Herzog that said everyone in Gaza, including civilians, were responsible. He's not exactly radical-right either. This is not an issue of radical-right. This is, of course, more of a symptom rather than a factor. Right now, many Israelis are showing their true colors given that they think the collective punishment they exert is justified by what happened on October 7.

I do agree btw that the IDF is not doing everything it can to ensure Gazans retain access to clean water, food, shelter and healthcare. Again though not that easy. Anything the military would organize, even if purely for the benefit of Gazans, would become a target for Hamas. That's the whole problem: Hamas is an organization that is uncompromising and will only do what they believe furthers their cause no matter the cost.

We could discuss the details but it's pointless to discuss cutting water to Gaza. Israel did not even meet the basics of it. Heck, in the past they even banned Gazans from collecting rain water. Blaming Hamas is the easy way out but its not a valid argument with the current standards that we have.

[Kyriakos]

Disproportionate violence is a war crime, but so is the use of human shields. In other words, in war, both sides have a responsibility to minimize civilian casualties. The attacker cannot be expected to be hamstrung by the failure of the defender to do their part.

I kind of understand why this is an unpalatable idea. The civilian suffering appears to be horrendous and it's Israeli projectiles doing the killing. They should just stop! But that is basically to say "let's act as if 7/10 never happened". It's easy to say when it's not your country that was attacked. I think there's very few nations in the world that would just let something like 7/10 slide even though they had the capability of reacting. Whether it's going to work is another matter. I highly doubt it. Then again, it's inconceivable that any kind of compromise is possible as long as Hamas is speaking for the Gazans.

I don't see how stopping would be "let's act like 7/10 never happened", given already 10 times more palestinians were killed. By your logic, Palestine should indeed act as if 10.000 palestinians didn't die, because all that matters is 1400 israelis.
And for the n-nth time, the leadership of hamas is NOT in Gaza, and won't be harmed. It's in Qatar and Turkey.