Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Cyclops]

Tricky. As far as Rafah is concerned, even if Hamas wanted to evacuate civilians (doubtful IMHO), I don't think they control any potential evacuation zones anymore? Unless there is a way out for civilians, threatening an assault is tantamount to threatening a massacre or mass expulsion to Egypt. In other words it's threatening genocide or a war crime. It's not for nothing Israel's traditional allies view this situation as fundamentally different from the war so far.
Also, if there's an evacuation route into territory controlled by Israel, then Israel would be expected to provide water, food, shelter and sanitation, not just the absence of fighting. Just because Hamas failed to provide all these things in territory under their control is no excuse for Israel to do the same.

Yes Hamas has successfully manufactured the massacre that was their aim all along. The Ayatollahs must be laughing right now.

Its a sign of Netanyahu's unfitness to rule that he has fallen for this. If he really did contribute to setting up Hamas as a convenient bogeyman then he should be executed as one of them.

[PointOfViewGun]

Walled site grows at Egypt border near Gaza



Egypt likely struck a deal with Israel to move Palestinians of Gaza to an even smaller open-air prison of sorts. I have no idea how this can be managed.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

The difference between the Rafah governate and the Rafah city was never the issue. No one claimed that the are Palestinians were confined to was the entirety of Rafah.

It would help if you read the post I originally replied to. Ludicus claimed that the people of Gaza are currently crammed into an area the size of Heathrow, and I pointed out that Rafah alone is much larger than that. He would later backtrack that claim.

You are saying that the British rabbi considers himself an Israeli citizen first and foremost, and he sees British nationality as a matter of convenience. Precisely, that's what he thinks.

Jumping to a lot of conclusions here. Where does he say what he considers himself to be 'first and foremost'?
And even if he does, I fail to see the issue.

But I dont think that all Jews are ideologically born representatives of the Jewish state. But the previous question was, as Jonathan Cook, put it, “if you or I conflated the Jewish people with Israel, we’d be called antisemites.” Don't you agree?

What a strange question. If you see an Asian person and say 'hey, you're Asian, you must be good at maths!" you'd be called a racist. If an Asian person tells you 'I'm good at maths', is he a racist?
Like..??

nhytgbvfeco2, what do you believe is the most appropriate size for an Israeli concentration camp for Palestinians? that is, of course, until Israel manages to expel them from their own country.

Israel fears US recognition of Palestinian state: Israeli media

I understand you're upset that the civilians won't be used as human shields, but since Egypt refuses to let them in and there's no where else for them to go, they have to be moved from the active warzone, which unfortunately is nearly all of Gaza. Hopefully they can be moved to the north once it's decided the operations there have fully concluded.
Expulsion is neither the goal nor the intent. See below.



In other news, Netanyahu unveiled his plan for Gaza.
A local civilian government ran by local officials, a de-radicalization campaign with help from Arab states Israel has relations with, and a buffer area. A good solution overall, and roughly what I had been hoping for.



Edit:

Egypt likely struck a deal with Egypt

to move Palestinians of Gaza to an even smaller open-air prison of sorts. I have no idea how this can be managed.

It's significantly larger than the current humanitarian safezone within Gaza.

[PointOfViewGun]

It would help if you read the post I originally replied to. Ludicus claimed that the people of Gaza are currently crammed into an area the size of Heathrow, and I pointed out that Rafah alone is much larger than that. He would later backtrack that claim.

It would help if you followed your own advice first. Palestinians are not just crammed into Rafah as a whole but a much smaller portion of Rafah as it was already pointed out to you (with visual aid). I'm not sure how that simple fact gets lost on you repeatedly.

In other news, Netanyahu unveiled his plan for Gaza.
A local civilian government ran by local officials, a de-radicalization campaign with help from Arab states Israel has relations with, and a buffer area. A good solution overall, and roughly what I had been hoping for.

Nothing but a filler plan to feed the optics. There is nothing left in Gaza to rule anyways. The Israeli army made sure of that. If you read between the lines you see that its nothing but a military occupation plan likely to be kept till Israel finds a permanent way to get rid of Palestinians all together.

It's significantly larger than the current humanitarian safezone within Gaza.

It's 22.5 times smaller than the Gaza Strip.

[Muizer]

In other news, Netanyahu unveiled his plan for Gaza.
A local civilian government ran by local officials, a de-radicalization campaign with help from Arab states Israel has relations with, and a buffer area. A good solution overall, and roughly what I had been hoping for.

Pitting prisoner against fellow prisoner. The Nazi's used it to administer occupied territories and even the concentration camps themselves. Wonder if Israel can find enough people to play the collaborator / kapo.
Of all peoples, you'd expect Jews to recognize the obvious parallels to their own history. But maybe Netanyahu does and he's just chosen to 'learn from the best'.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It would help if you followed your own advice first. Palestinians are not just crammed into Rafah as a whole but a much smaller portion of Rafah as it was already pointed out to you (with visual aid). I'm not sure how that simple fact gets lost on you repeatedly.

Are you claiming that the area in white on your map is smaller than the rafah governorate? Let's compare it to your visual aid.



What do you think? which is larger?

Nothing but a filler plan to feed the optics. There is nothing left in Gaza to rule anyways. The Israeli army made sure of that. If you read between the lines you see that its nothing but a military occupation plan likely to be kept till Israel finds a permanent way to get rid of Palestinians all together.

It's a military occupation with a civilian administration until a final deal is negotiated with the PA.

It's 22.5 times smaller than the Gaza Strip.

This statement doesn't contradict mine in any way.

Pitting prisoner against fellow prisoner. The Nazi's used it to administer occupied territories and even the concentration camps themselves. Wonder if Israel can find enough people to play the collaborator / kapo.
Of all peoples, you'd expect Jews to recognize the obvious parallels to their own history. But maybe Netanyahu does and he's just chosen to 'learn from the best'.

One could instead compare it to allied occupation of Germany post ww2, but I get that belittling the memory of the Holocaust is the more hip thing to do.

[PointOfViewGun]

Are you claiming that the area in white on your map is smaller than the rafah governorate? Let's compare it to your visual aid.
What do you think? which is larger?

I'm pointing out that the refugee area in Rafah, which is clearly marked on the map, that houses hundreds of thousands of internally displaced Palestinians is much smaller than the Rafah city or the Rafah governate itself.

It's a military occupation with a civilian administration until a final deal is negotiated with the PA.

It's a military occupation. Period. Its a continuation of Israel stopping Palestinian Authority from exerting any civilian control in Gaza. In the past it did so by empowering Hamas in Gaza.

This statement doesn't contradict mine in any way.

It does contradict what you're trying to focus at.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I'm pointing out that the refugee area in Rafah, which is clearly marked on the map, that houses hundreds of thousands of internally displaced Palestinians is much smaller than the Rafah city or the Rafah governate itself.

Who's forcing them to be crammed into specifically that part?

It's a military occupation. Period. Its a continuation of Israel stopping Palestinian Authority from exerting any civilian control in Gaza. In the past it did so by empowering Hamas in Gaza.

Indeed, it is an occupation, that's what I said. Once the conditions are right, the occupation will end.

It does contradict what you're trying to focus at.

It really doesn't.

[PointOfViewGun]

Who's forcing them to be crammed into specifically that part?

Israel is, through widespread bombing of civilian infrastructure.

Indeed, it is an occupation, that's what I said. Once the conditions are right, the occupation will end.

When the conditions are right for Israel's unconscionable desires, sure.

It really doesn't.

You tried to downplay the small size of the zone by comparing it to a place nobody compared it to when it was much smaller compared to the actually place those people were living.

[Muizer]

One could instead compare it to allied occupation of Germany post ww2

To my knowledge, there never was any serious risk of the Allies facing a Nazi grassroots resistance movement in post-war occupied Germany.

but I get that belittling the memory of the Holocaust is the more hip thing to do.

I don't think we should we disregard the Holocaust as something we can learn from unless and until a crime of the same nature and magnitude manifests itself.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Israel is, through widespread bombing of civilian infrastructure.

That's a weak argument and you know it. Israel is not forcing them into that specific part of Rafah.

When the conditions are right for Israel's unconscionable desires, sure.

What you think those desires are, and what they actually are, are wildly different things.

You tried to downplay the small size of the zone by comparing it to a place nobody compared it to when it was much smaller compared to the actually place those people were living.

It's a better solution than the currently proposed one, that was my point. If they stay in Rafah once the military operation there begins, they will be in grave danger. That Egypt is building a small camp to keep them in because they don't want them in their country is a different matter. The size of the Gaza strip is utterly irrelevant to this discussion.

To my knowledge, there never was any serious risk of the Allies facing a Nazi grassroots resistance movement in post-war occupied Germany.

Are you trying to make the point that civilians in Nazi Germany were less radicalized than in Gaza?
Japan, then.

I don't think we should we disregard the Holocaust as something we can learn from unless and until a crime of the same nature and magnitude manifests itself.

I don't see how establishing a local government is immediately compared to the Kapo. The Kapo were not a government.

[PointOfViewGun]

That's a weak argument and you know it. Israel is not forcing them into that specific part of Rafah.

It's not a weak argument, or even an argument. It's a statement of fact.

What you think those desires are, and what they actually are, are wildly different things.

They are what Israelis of different levels of authority have been showing us. The fact that you have chosen to ignore them so far means little.

It's a better solution than the currently proposed one, that was my point. If they stay in Rafah once the military operation there begins, they will be in grave danger. That Egypt is building a small camp to keep them in because they don't want them in their country is a different matter. The size of the Gaza strip is utterly irrelevant to this discussion.

It's very much is relevant as it was already a small patch of land that Palestinians of Gaza has been living in. It's ridiculous how you try to justify such an abhorrent way of living. Auschwitz concentration camp likely had less concentration of people at a given time.

[Muizer]

Are you trying to make the point that civilians in Nazi Germany were less radicalized than in Gaza?

I think it was kind of inherent in Nazism that once the Nazi state was defeated, belief in the ideology was also largely defeated. In the case of both Germany and Japan, though self determination of the nation was not ultimately called into question by the Allies. I think Palestinians feel differently about Israel. Hamas may be radical in its methods and ultimate aims, the feeling that Israel is stifling Palestinian self-determination is widespread.

I don't see how establishing a local government is immediately compared to the Kapo. The Kapo were not a government.

A local government picked by Israeli overlords as part of a program of de-radicalization will widely be viewed as a puppet regime of collaborators and their enforcers. It's not possible to break the vicious cycle of repression and revolt until there is a clear path to Palestinian self-determination. Netanyahu's proposal falls well short of that.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It's not a weak argument, or even an argument. It's a statement of fact.

Well, if it's a fact then you can easily show how this is the only area not being bombed at all and that everywhere else outside of it is uninhabitable, right?

They are what Israelis of different levels of authority have been showing us. The fact that you have chosen to ignore them so far means little.

Well, you've chosen to ignore the plan of the Israeli of the highest level of authority, which contradicts those you choose to take the word of, so..

It's very much is relevant as it was already a small patch of land that Palestinians of Gaza has been living in. It's ridiculous how you try to justify such an abhorrent way of living.

It's not a way of living, and it's imposed by Egypt, not Israel.
You would rather they stay at Rafah and be at risk of death? Why?

Auschwitz concentration camp likely had less concentration of people at a given time.

What a ing disgusting comparison. Yes, it had fewer people in it at a time, because they were being exterminated.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well, if it's a fact then you can easily show how this is the only area not being bombed at all and that everywhere else outside of it is uninhabitable, right?
Well, you've chosen to ignore the plan of the Israeli of the highest level of authority, which contradicts those you choose to take the word of, so..
It's not a way of living, and it's imposed by Egypt, not Israel.
You would rather they stay at Rafah and be at risk of death? Why?
What a ing disgusting comparison. Yes, it had fewer people in it at a time, because they were being exterminated.

The only disgusting take here is your continuous usage of utterly ignorant arguments that you rely on to justify the suffering of Palestinians. Egypt didn't cause the Nakba that created the Gaza population density of today. Egypt didn't start a widespread bombing campaign of Gaza that destroyed vast majority of all civilian structures. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being cornered in Rafah is not Egypt's doing. I don't need to show any sources on widespread bombing of Gaza by Israel. Even the map I used earlier shows Israeli actions into an area they declared to be an humanitarian area... It was Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, that used maps showing Gaza and West Bank as Israeli lands. It was 12 ministers from Israeli government that attended a recent conference to resettle Gaza in support of it. That Netanyahu now came up with a plan to further isolate Gaza from civilian control of Palestinians doesn't really mean much. Pointing out the hypocrisy of it is not ignoring the plan.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

The only disgusting take here is your continuous usage of utterly ignorant arguments that you rely on to justify the suffering of Palestinians.

You're the one who wants them to remain in an active warzone and suffer. I wish for peace with them.

Egypt didn't cause the Nakba that created the Gaza population density of today. Egypt didn't start a widespread bombing campaign of Gaza that destroyed vast majority of all civilian structures.

Had Egypt not invaded Israel in 1948 there may well have not been any displacement of people in the south.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being cornered in Rafah is not Egypt's doing.

In a way, it is, due to their refusal to allow refugees to enter its territory.

I don't need to show any sources on widespread bombing of Gaza by Israel. Even the map I used earlier shows Israeli actions into an area they declared to be an humanitarian area...

So you can't prove what you claim to be a fact. Big shock.

It was Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, that used maps showing Gaza and West Bank as Israeli lands.

Because no state recognised by Israel exists on those territories.

It was 12 ministers from Israeli government that attended a recent conference to resettle Gaza in support of it.

Which is contrary to government positions, and not supported by it. 11* random ministers attended (Israel has 37 ministers), none of whom are members of the war cabinet, and none of whom dictate policy on this matter, and this was after Netanyahu had already said there would be no settlements in Gaza. I don't know if you've noticed, but this is a highly disfunctional government, and the different ministers constantly contradict and attack each other.

That Netanyahu now came up with a plan to further isolate Gaza from civilian control of Palestinians

..By establishing palestinian civilian control, lol.

doesn't really mean much. Pointing out the hypocrisy of it is not ignoring the plan.

This is the first concrete plan. Everything that came before was random statements by random people who do not decide policy in this case.

I think it was kind of inherent in Nazism that once the Nazi state was defeated, belief in the ideology was also largely defeated. In the case of both Germany and Japan, though self determination of the nation was not ultimately called into question by the Allies. I think Palestinians feel differently about Israel. Hamas may be radical in its methods and ultimate aims, the feeling that Israel is stifling Palestinian self-determination is widespread.

Self determination won't end radicalization on its own. It would require their government to stop radicalizing them, and for them to come to terms with the fact that 'from the river to the sea' isn't happening. The Jews are here to stay. A two-state solution cannot be seen as just a stepping stone towards a one-state.

A local government picked by Israeli overlords as part of a program of de-radicalization will widely be viewed as a puppet regime of collaborators and their enforcers. It's not possible to break the vicious cycle of repression and revolt until there is a clear path to Palestinian self-determination. Netanyahu's proposal falls well short of that.

De-radicalization may just be a neccesary step for ensuring long lasting peace, and a viable two-state solution.
There aren't many other alternatives for what to do with Gaza once the war is over. There's handing it over to the PA, but that's what Israel did in 2005 and the PA promptly lost control. The PA also wouldn't de-radicalise anyone, on the contrary, polls show time and again that the people living under their rule are just as, if not more, radicalized. It also employs a 'pay to slay' program, where it pays its people for killing Jews. That's not a good solution.
Leaving Gaza without any government in place will just lead to the rise of a new armed faction, so that's also no solution.
What's the alternative?

This plan isn't instead of a two-state solution, it's a step towards one.

[Muizer]

Self determination won't end radicalization on its own. It would require their government to stop radicalizing them, and for them to come to terms with the fact that 'from the river to the sea' isn't happening. The Jews are here to stay. A two-state solution cannot be seen as just a stepping stone towards a one-state.

I don't disagree, but I do think the prospect of self determination needs to be tangible from the start. Netanyahu's plan for Gaza is too much like replicating the situation on the West Bank. It is a euphemism to say it's not realistic to base a solution on Palestinians have faith in Israel's good intentions.

De-radicalization may just be a neccesary step for ensuring long lasting peace

Without prospect of self determination, local government will lack all credibility to convince people there is a better way. So that's a kind of catch 22.

There aren't many other alternatives for what to do with Gaza once the war is over. There's handing it over to the PA, but that's what Israel did in 2005 and the PA promptly lost control. The PA also wouldn't de-radicalise anyone, on the contrary, polls show time and again that the people living under their rule are just as, if not more, radicalized. It also employs a 'pay to slay' program, where it pays its people for killing Jews. That's not a good solution. Leaving Gaza without any government in place will just lead to the rise of a new armed faction, so that's also no solution.What's the alternative? This plan isn't instead of a two-state solution, it's a step towards one.

It seems to steps towards deradicalisation and self determination must go hand in hand. Also it is going to require third party guarantors as well to ensure promises are kept. I know it's vague but I don't see a way out without these ingredients.

P.S. reading PovG comment about Auschwitz kind of shocked me and then I realised my references to kapo's were similarly, though maybe not as blatantly, inappropriate. I should have left it at collaborators.

[PointOfViewGun]

You're the one who wants them to remain in an active warzone and suffer. I wish for peace with them.
Had Egypt not invaded Israel in 1948 there may well have not been any displacement of people in the south.
In a way, it is, due to their refusal to allow refugees to enter its territory.
So you can't prove what you claim to be a fact. Big shock.
Because no state recognised by Israel exists on those territories.
Which is contrary to government positions, and not supported by it. 11* random ministers attended (Israel has 37 ministers), none of whom are members of the war cabinet, and none of whom dictate policy on this matter, and this was after Netanyahu had already said there would be no settlements in Gaza. I don't know if you've noticed, but this is a highly disfunctional government, and the different ministers constantly contradict and attack each other.
..By establishing palestinian civilian control, lol.
This is the first concrete plan. Everything that came before was random statements by random people who do not decide policy in this case.

That's one way of trying to justify ethnic cleansing. You clearly employ no bounds. If it suited Israel you'd try to claim that Earth is flat...

[nhytgbvfeco2]

That's one way of trying to justify ethnic cleansing. You clearly employ no bounds. If it suited Israel you'd try to claim that Earth is flat...

Maybe I should create a group called 'The Palestinian issue' which I'd link in my signature, where I explain how actually displacing 1.5 million people into the desert and having the vast majority of them die is just a whoopsie doopsie and not a crime. Now that would be an example of someone employing no bounds to justify ethnic cleansing.

I'm not justifying ethnic cleansing. I'm saying it might have not happened. Those are wildly different things.

I don't disagree, but I do think the prospect of self determination needs to be tangible from the start. Netanyahu's plan for Gaza is too much like replicating the situation on the West Bank. It is a euphemism to say it's not realistic to base a solution on Palestinians have faith in Israel's good intentions.

Equally, what happened in Gaza after Israel left didn't help Israelis with having faith in the good intentions of the palestinians.
Allowing self governance while maintaining a security presence is like the least bad of all options I can see.

Without prospect of self determination, local government will lack all credibility to convince people there is a better way. So that's a kind of catch 22.

There is a prospect of self determination, it'll just take some time to get there. And a different government on both sides.

It seems to steps towards deradicalisation and self determination must go hand in hand. Also it is going to require third party guarantors as well to ensure promises are kept. I know it's vague but I don't see a way out without these ingredients.

The plan does include third parties. The de-radicalization is meant to be handled by Arab states.

P.S. reading PovG comment about Auschwitz kind of shocked me and then I realised my references to kapo's were similarly, though maybe not as blatantly, inappropriate. I should have left it at collaborators.

Hence my reaction to your comment in the first place Though no worries, while you came close to crossing the line, he flew right past it.

[PointOfViewGun]

Maybe I should create a group called 'The Palestinian issue' which I'd link in my signature, where I explain how actually displacing 1.5 million people into the desert and having the vast majority of them die is just a whoopsie doopsie and not a crime. Now that would be an example of someone employing no bounds to justify ethnic cleansing.

I'm not justifying ethnic cleansing. I'm saying it might have not happened. Those are wildly different things.

That would be an example of you lying about what someone argues about a completely different topic to hide away from the failure of your argument on the actual topic at hand. You clearly do not not see how badly your arguments lack any intelligent thought whatsoever. This is just an other case of you in this thread justifying suffering of Palestinians. It's nothing new.