Hamas attacks southern Israel

[PointOfViewGun]

I'm asking you to refute my claim. You think that's stupid. Incredible.

Given that you already refuted yourself and the corner you backtracked yourself to is evidently stupid. Yes, I think that's stupid.

Bro doesn't know what synonym means. Allow me to highlight the relevant part for you:
"one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses"

It's also stupid that you think that somehow legitimizes your objection. Your real issue, however, is your failure to substantiate your claim that its wrong to call it a siege. You have been unable to provide a single argument supporting that.

This post just gets worse and worse the more one reads. Yikes.
Are you unaware of what happened on 7/10 or something? there are videos online. There's a video they recorded and posted themselves of cutting up a pregnant woman, taking the infant out, killing it in front of her, and then killing her. That's the people you're defending, the action of whom you're justifying and celebrating. The worst pieces of filth on this planet, and you love them for it, because their victims are Jews.
How dare you compare their actions to the IDF's? Your post sickens me. It's disgusting. Your post is a waste of space.

Yup. I have seen how Israelis lied about decapitated babies and entire families burnt while being tied together. You have propagated such lies in this very thread before without the slightest acknowledgment when they turned out to be blatant lies. Heck, presidents backtracked those claims. You have not. I have also seen testimony of Jewish people talking about not being harmed by Hamas fighters at all. Clearly, the demonization that you want to extend to everyone was not the rule. Of course, you make all these comments while knowing that Israeli helicopters and tanks opened fire on Israeli civilians themselves. You are unable to distinguish burned Israeli civilians whether they were burned by Hamas fighters actions or Israeli armed forces actions. Watching a few videos of questionable origin doesn't legitimize your attempt to sensationalize the situation any time Israeli responsibility is mentioned. I'm not the one expressing joy in seeing random dead people, Israeli or Palestinian. The ideology you're banking on here is that of Goebbels'. That's what's sickening.

[Coughdrop addict]

It really isn't up for debate that Hamas committed atrocities against Israelis on 7/10. They live streamed themselves raping and murdering. They're proud of it.

[PointOfViewGun]

It really isn't up for debate that Hamas committed atrocities against Israelis on 7/10. They live streamed themselves raping and murdering. They're proud of it.

No doubt such cases may exist, however, the evidence at hand doesn't support the claims or the popular verdict. Just because the alleged acts are atrocious doesn't grant belief at face value. This is especially hurt by the fact that Israel took measures to undermine investigations but more importantly through various organizations and people they wanted fictional stories to propagate.

Fact Check: Video of captured woman mistranslates captor as threatening 'rape'

The onscreen subtitles in the nine-second video, opens new tab, which are mistranslated from Arabic to English and Hebrew, read: “No, no, take her back, this is not a prisoner, this one is for rape. Go back to your place!”
In an Oct. 22 post on messaging platform X, opens new tab, formerly known as Twitter, one user captioned the video: “Hamas posted its own videos boasting of the rape of Israeli girls. After the rape they were murdered. How low do you have to sink to defend these scum?”

The subtitles, however, do not represent the remarks made in Arabic.
At no time in the video is rape mentioned, according to a Reuters translation of the Arabic audio on the video, nor do any of the men say the woman is going to be raped.
In the video, one man says: “No, no, she is a female captive, leave her, leave her, she is a female captive. Take her back, take her back, she is a female captive. Go back to your place!”

Death and Donations: Did the Israeli Volunteer Group Handling the Dead of October 7 Exploit Its Role?

The Zaka volunteer group began collecting bodies in the devastated communities of southern Israel immediately after the Hamas attack, while the IDF sidelined soldiers trained to retrieve remains. An investigation reveals cases of negligence, misinformation and a fundraising campaign that used the dead as props

American Media Keep Citing Zaka - Though Its October 7 Atrocity Stories Are Discredited in Israel

In the case of the butchered mother and fetus, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz concluded the killing “simply didn’t happen.” As for the tortured family, no one killed in Be’eri matches Landau’s account. The one brother and sister to die in the kibbutz were 12-year-old twins, killed when an Israeli general ordered a tank to fire on a house where Hamas militants were holding them hostage. Nevertheless, Landau told these stories unchecked in interviews and press conferences.

No one else has corroborated Greiniman’s story of foreign fighters. Months later, another source did claim to find five dead women tied naked to trees: According to a new report from an Israeli group, a farmer who rescued attendees from the music festival alleged the five women’s organs were all slashed and made bizarre claims about sexual mutilation. In three previous interviews, the farmer never made such claims nor is there any forensic or photo evidence to back up his account.

Are they proud of it though? As an organization? No, since they publicly denied such cases. The useful idiots on Twitter boasting about such cases, of course, exist. Just like we had members here boasting about killing of unarmed Palestinians.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Given that you already refuted yourself and the corner you backtracked yourself to is evidently stupid. Yes, I think that's stupid.

This is beyond hilarious. It's incredible that you think pretending to not understand the obvious makes you look good (or maybe you truly do not understand the obvious, in which case, my condolences).

It's also stupid that you think that somehow legitimizes your objection. Your real issue, however, is your failure to substantiate your claim that its wrong to call it a siege. You have been unable to provide a single argument supporting that.

High and tall are synonyms, because they have the same meaning in some cases. Some. 'That man is tall' and 'That man is high' do not mean the same thing.
Now that we've gotten elementary school tier English out of the way, let's look at the definitions for siege and blockade:
Siege: "a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling those inside to surrender."
Blockade: "an act or means of sealing off a place to prevent goods or people from entering or leaving."

The blockade of Gaza is not intended to make someone surrender, and essential supplies are not cut off. It is a blockade, not a siege.

Yup. I have seen how Israelis lied about decapitated babies and entire families burnt while being tied together. You have propagated such lies in this very thread before without the slightest acknowledgment when they turned out to be blatant lies. Heck, presidents backtracked those claims. You have not. I have also seen testimony of Jewish people talking about not being harmed by Hamas fighters at all. Clearly, the demonization that you want to extend to everyone was not the rule. Of course, you make all these comments while knowing that Israeli helicopters and tanks opened fire on Israeli civilians themselves. You are unable to distinguish burned Israeli civilians whether they were burned by Hamas fighters actions or Israeli armed forces actions. Watching a few videos of questionable origin doesn't legitimize your attempt to sensationalize the situation any time Israeli responsibility is mentioned. I'm not the one expressing joy in seeing random dead people, Israeli or Palestinian. The ideology you're banking on here is that of Goebbels'. That's what's sickening.

Do find a post of me propagating the 40 babies story. Go ahead, I'll wait. Quote me.
As for the families tied up and burned together, that did happen, there are charred remains proving this.

'A few videos of questionable origin' fing hell. Are you serious right now?!

You speak of Goebbles, but you mimic his strategies quite well. You use one fabricated story, two examples of hostages being potentially killed by IDF (at most 12 in the tank incident, possibly at most a dozen by helicopter), like 3 people that were let go of, as if that's so significant with over 1200 killed, and pretend as if this is proof everything else is fake. You even deny the legitimacy of real videos, available online to watch, that Hamas operatives shot and uploaded themselves because they were so proud of their actions. You're literally using holocaust denial tactics.

No doubt such cases may exist, however, the evidence at hand doesn't support the claims or the popular verdict. Just because the alleged acts are atrocious doesn't grant belief at face value. This is especially hurt by the fact that Israel took measures to undermine investigations but more importantly through various organizations and people they wanted fictional stories to propagate.

Fact Check: Video of captured woman mistranslates captor as threatening 'rape'



Death and Donations: Did the Israeli Volunteer Group Handling the Dead of October 7 Exploit Its Role?


American Media Keep Citing Zaka - Though Its October 7 Atrocity Stories Are Discredited in Israel



Are they proud of it though? As an organization? No, since they publicly denied such cases. The useful idiots on Twitter boasting about such cases, of course, exist. Just like we had members here boasting about killing of unarmed Palestinians.

This is some holocaust denial level of mental gymnastics to justify horrendous atrocities. It's disgusting, and nausea inducing.

[PointOfViewGun]

This is beyond hilarious. It's incredible that you think pretending to not understand the obvious makes you look good (or maybe you truly do not understand the obvious, in which case, my condolences).
High and tall are synonyms, because they have the same meaning in some cases. Some. 'That man is tall' and 'That man is high' do not mean the same thing.
Now that we've gotten elementary school tier English out of the way, let's look at the definitions for siege and blockade:
Siege: "a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling those inside to surrender."
Blockade: "an act or means of sealing off a place to prevent goods or people from entering or leaving."
The blockade of Gaza is not intended to make someone surrender, and essential supplies are not cut off. It is a blockade, not a siege.

The blockade of Gaza is not intended to make Hamas surrender? Or their ability to attack Israel? You can try to hide your position behind a Middle-Age-centric understanding of a siege but that doesn't really have much merit. Elementary school tier English would still dictate that Gaza has been under Israeli siege for decades.

Do find a post of me propagating the 40 babies story. Go ahead, I'll wait. Quote me.
As for the families tied up and burned together, that did happen, there are charred remains proving this.
'A few videos of questionable origin' fing hell. Are you serious right now?!
You speak of Goebbles, but you mimic his strategies quite well. You use one fabricated story, two examples of hostages being potentially killed by IDF (at most 12 in the tank incident, possibly at most a dozen by helicopter), like 3 people that were let go of, as if that's so significant with over 1200 killed, and pretend as if this is proof everything else is fake. You even deny the legitimacy of real videos, available online to watch, that Hamas operatives shot and uploaded themselves because they were so proud of their actions. You're literally using holocaust denial tactics. It's disgusting. The sort of strategies lowlife scum would resort to. Your posts on this thread are some of the most vile on this forum.
This is some holocaust denial level of mental gymnastics to justify horrendous atrocities. It's disgusting, and nausea inducing.

Sure, your response to me mentioning "40 beheaded babies" as a false story:

What a disgusting thing to say. How can you write such filth?
Israel's interest is in minimizing casualties. Every casualty is being named and documented. These are not made up numbers.
"bought it"..? Are you denying what happened?

You later tried to unbind yourself from the claims saying that the government did not announce such a story but that an independent reporter did which still classifies as propagating such lies. You can project your deceptive arguments to me all you want. You are continuing to use deception in this post of yours as well. 1200 is not the number of civilians deaths. The actual number:

Israel social security data reveals true picture of Oct 7 deaths

The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.

In your attempt to downplay Israel's own damage you are still de facto acknowledging dozens of cases where civilians were killed by Israeli forces themselves. That means the actual number is likely to be much higher. Israel is responsible with announcing how many of those 695 civilians (766 with foreigners included) that were killed on October 7 were actually killed by Hamas.

I'm not denying any videos. I'm rejecting claims on videos that nobody are able to reference in detail or link. Much of the videos claimed to be portraying livestream of Hamas raping women or burning families together bind with rope simply does not exist. At every turn in this thread you had to rely on a different version of events than what really happened on October 7. The videos that actually exist is no more hideous than the Israeli settler violence that we have been witnessing for years.

I understand your efforts to base the situation on sensationalism that is divorced from facts but given how your stance has been so rotten in this thread with lies and deceptive arguments its all you have left to rely on.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

The blockade of Gaza is not intended to make Hamas surrender? Or their ability to attack Israel? You can try to hide your position behind a Middle-Age-centric understanding of a siege but that doesn't really have much merit. Elementary school tier English would still dictate that Gaza has been under Israeli siege for decades.

No, the intention is not to make Hamas surrender. Surrender what? Gaza, which Israel left 2 years prior to the blockade starting?
The aim is to prevent entry of arms into Gaza, and exit of terrorists from it.

Sure, your response to me mentioning "40 beheaded babies" as a false story:


You later tried to unbind yourself from the claims saying that the government did not announce such a story but that an independent reporter did which still classifies as propagating such lies. You can project your deceptive arguments to me all you want.

Nice try, this would almost work, if one had no idea what 'propagate' means. To propagate is to spread and promote something.
Not to mention that I didn't refer to the babies story at all, but to the rest of the vile filth written in that post.

You are continuing to use deception in this post of yours as well. 1200 is not the number of civilians deaths. The actual number:

Israel social security data reveals true picture of Oct 7 deaths

Indeed, I was 61 off. Though, there were also many dead among the kidnapped, some of whom we may still not know about, so even this number isn't truly final.

In your attempt to downplay Israel's own damage you are still de facto acknowledging dozens of cases where civilians were killed by Israeli forces themselves. That means the actual number is likely to be much higher. Israel is responsible with announcing how many of those 695 civilians (766 with foreigners included) that were killed on October 7 were actually killed by Hamas.

There were not dozens of cases. You're taking maybe 2 incidents and pretending like there's a bigger conspiracy in place. This is a blood libel.
How many of the 766 were killed by Hamas? 750+.

I'm not denying any videos. I'm rejecting claims on videos that nobody are able to reference in detail or link. Much of the videos claimed to be portraying livestream of Hamas raping women or burning families together bind with rope simply does not exist. At every turn in this thread you had to rely on a different version of events than what really happened on October 7. The videos that actually exist is no more hideous than the Israeli settler violence that we have been witnessing for years.

DIsgusting. The videos exist, I cannot link them without violating the TOS. You can easily find one of many websites documenting Hamas atrocities, the video I mentioned is on there. I've seen it. Heck, I'm sure if you added a .com to the word Hamas you'd see some.
You're literally copying the tactics of Holocaust deniers, verbatim.

I understand your efforts to base the situation on sensationalism that is divorced from facts but given how your stance has been so rotten in this thread with lies and deceptive arguments its all you have left to rely on.

Your arguments rely on feinging ignorance to mask something far worse.

[Kyriakos]

One of the many issues with Hamas, is that Israel created it, to antagonize (and often literally murder) Fatah officials, ultimately making it even harder for Palestine to form in WB and Gaza. That much is known, reported by jewish newspapers too.
Of course this doesn't change the fact that Hamas is a third-world-typed religious terrorist group, with all that this entails.
Still, the above likewise isn't an excuse to keep killing palestinians, nor allows people to think that the aim "remove Hamas" is realistic. After all, the only certainty is that after this latest massive killing out of all proportion (34.000 palestinians murdered now?), obviously their relatives/others in Gaza will enlist in Hamas, thus making it even further away from being ended.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

One of the many issues with Hamas, is that Israel created it, to antagonize (and often literally murder) Fatah officials, ultimately making it even harder for Palestine to form in WB and Gaza. That much is known, reported by jewish newspapers too.
Of course this doesn't change the fact that Hamas is a third-world-typed religious terrorist group, with all that this entails.
Still, the above likewise isn't an excuse to keep killing palestinians, nor allows people to think that the aim "remove Hamas" is realistic. After all, the only certainty is that after this latest massive killing out of all proportion (34.000 palestinians murdered now?), obviously their relatives/others in Gaza will enlist in Hamas, thus making it even further away from being ended.

You're horribly misrepresenting what's written in those newspapers. Israel provided funding for Hamas back when it was created as a charity organisation, it did not create it. The guy you're quoting said Israel created a monster, as in by funding it and letting it grow, not by literally creating it.

[PointOfViewGun]

No, the intention is not to make Hamas surrender. Surrender what? Gaza, which Israel left 2 years prior to the blockade starting?
The aim is to prevent entry of arms into Gaza, and exit of terrorists from it.

I already pointed what Israel wants Hamas to surrender in Gaza. If you can't address it in an attempt to deflect I don't see the need to repeat myself. You clearly do not see how pointless your arguments have become.

Nice try, this would almost work, if one had no idea what 'propagate' means. To propagate is to spread and promote something.
Not to mention that I didn't refer to the babies story at all, but to the rest of the vile filth written in that post.

"I was defending not spreading" is not exactly a good argument to have there as much as you'd like to spin your take on it. The exchange is as obvious as it gets.

Indeed, I was 61 off. Though, there were also many dead among the kidnapped, some of whom we may still not know about, so even this number isn't truly final.
There were not dozens of cases. You're taking maybe 2 incidents and pretending like there's a bigger conspiracy in place. This is a blood libel.
How many of the 766 were killed by Hamas? 750+.

You don't really know that though. Tank fire into homes with hostages, helicopter fire into crowds at the festival, shooting of fleeing hostages, so on and on. 70 cars were shot while attempting to cross to Gaza. Nobody knows how many of the potential hostages turned dead civilians because of that that day. We know of only the specific cases that slipped through the cracks.

DIsgusting. The videos exist, I cannot link them without violating the TOS. You can easily find one of many websites documenting Hamas atrocities, the video I mentioned is on there. I've seen it. Heck, I'm sure if you added a .com to the word Hamas you'd see some.
You're literally copying the tactics of Holocaust deniers, verbatim.
Your arguments rely on feinging ignorance to mask something far worse.

You couldn't link them anywhere because they don't exist. There is a reason any serious article covering sexual violence by Hamas fighters on October 7 do not even mention them. You can try to shut down criticism of your claims by playing the Holocaust denial card all you want.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I already pointed what Israel wants Hamas to surrender in Gaza. If you can't address it in an attempt to deflect I don't see the need to repeat myself. You clearly do not see how pointless your arguments have become.

No, you have not. Unless you mean 'to surrender their ability to attack Israel', which is not what surrendering means in the context of the definition. It means to capitulate.

"I was defending not spreading" is not exactly a good argument to have there as much as you'd like to spin your take on it. The exchange is as obvious as it gets.

I wasn't defending it either, as I pointed out in the bit you quoted. It's indeed obvious, but we've already established that you've trouble with things that are obvious.

You don't really know that though. Tank fire into homes with hostages,

Home*, not homes. This was one incident. Stop lying. You accuse me of being inaccurate, yet you keep multiplying singular incidents.

helicopter fire into crowds at the festival

This story is false. You accuse me of propagating a story I've never spread, yet here you are. Propagating a lie.

, shooting of fleeing hostages,

We're talking about Oct 7, yet you bring forth an incident from December. Trying to muddy the waters are we?

70 cars were shot while attempting to cross to Gaza. Nobody knows how many of the potential hostages turned dead civilians because of that that day. We know of only the specific cases that slipped through the cracks.

You've mentioned exactly one confirmed case. We don't know how many of those 70 cars had hostages, how many of them were even alive, and how many may have been killed.

You couldn't link them anywhere because they don't exist. There is a reason any serious article covering sexual violence by Hamas fighters on October 7 do not even mention them. You can try to shut down criticism of your claims by playing the Holocaust denial card all you want.

I'm not talking about sexual assault, there are no videos of those to my knowledge, only forensic evidence and testimonies. I'm talking about the specific video I described. Linking it would violate the TOS on posting gore.
Holocaust isn't one of the genocides you deny, to my knowledge. Do correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not accusing you of being a Holocaust denier, but rather of copying the tactics of those who are.

[PointOfViewGun]

No, you have not. Unless you mean 'to surrender their ability to attack Israel', which is not what surrendering means in the context of the definition. It means to capitulate.

It is what surrendering also mean. The framing you're trying to hide behind has no merit in this respect.

I wasn't defending it either, as I pointed out in the bit you quoted. It's indeed obvious, but we've already established that you've trouble with things that are obvious.

Nope. You were attempting to berate me for questioning that lie. In fact, it was the only specific example I gave at that instance. You can try to spin that as much as you like.

Home*, not homes. This was one incident. Stop lying. You accuse me of being inaccurate, yet you keep multiplying singular incidents.
This story is false. You accuse me of propagating a story I've never spread, yet here you are. Propagating a lie.
We're talking about Oct 7, yet you bring forth an incident from December. Trying to muddy the waters are we?
You've mentioned exactly one confirmed case. We don't know how many of those 70 cars had hostages, how many of them were even alive, and how many may have been killed.

We have one highly publicized case of tank targeting a house that took the lives of 13 Israelis. Only ash and bone fragments remained from a lot of those people. Given the Hannibal Directive that ordered soldiers to stop Hamas fighters using any means necessary with disregard for civilian lives, it's likely that other cases exist. There is an other tank incident in Sderot that killed detainees in a police station along with Hamas fighters but I'm not sure if Israel even counts those as civilians. Helicopter fire is not really false either. Police force simply denied the Haaretz report. Israeli administrative sources have proven to be not reliable sources. We also know that helicopter fire was involved in destroying cars operated by Hamas fighters with Israeli hostages inside. You're right partially right about fleeing hostages being tied to a different time since we have seen specific cases where it happened. However, the indiscriminate force Israeli authorities decided to use on that day as evident from the specific cases we have seen its obvious that many got hurt. So on and on. You're right. We do not know the full extent of how many Israeli civilians got hurt by Israeli fire. It's highly likely that its much more than the few cases Israel itself had to confirm due to publicity.

I'm not talking about sexual assault, there are no videos of those to my knowledge, only forensic evidence and testimonies. I'm talking about the specific video I described. Linking it would violate the TOS on posting gore.

Ah, now you say that you were not talking about sexual assault, even though the post you were quoting the statements you were arguing against was talking about that. Thank you for acknowledging that such videos do not exist. Now, please do tell us why you didn't speak up when Coughdrop addict claimed that such videos existed?

Holocaust isn't one of the genocides you deny, to my knowledge. Do correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not accusing you of being a Holocaust denier, but rather of copying the tactics of those who are.

Its just your attempt to dilute the discussion to hide behind such accusatory terms that has no relation to what we're discussing. It's a testament to your failure to stand by your claims, nothing more.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It is what surrendering also mean. The framing you're trying to hide behind has no merit in this respect.

The mental gymnastics continue. Sigh.

Nope. You were attempting to berate me for questioning that lie. In fact, it was the only specific example I gave at that instance. You can try to spin that as much as you like.

I was referring to the rest of what's in your disgusting post, namely: "Israel has the same interest as Hamas on keeping casualties high and sensational,".
You can notice how I made no referrence at all to the babies story in my comment. Not once on this thread have I claimed that story was true.

We have one highly publicized case of tank targeting a house that took the lives of 13 Israelis.

A rather impressive feat considering there were only 12 hostages in the house, and that we know from interviews with survivors that at least 2 of those had been killed earlier during a firefight. At most, the tank killed 10.
You can't just accuse me of being inaccurate with numbers in an earlier post and then fumble every figure you give.

Only ash and bone fragments remained from a lot of those people.

Correct, because Hamas set the houses on fire. There are videos of them setting houses on fire, so don't try to deny it.

Given the Hannibal Directive that ordered soldiers to stop Hamas fighters using any means necessary with disregard for civilian lives, it's likely that other cases exist.

Hannibal directive was not issued. It's also an illegal order, that soldiers are obliged not to follow. The only person who authorized Hannibal was the man who ordered the tank to fire on the house in the singular example you've mentioned.

There is an other tank incident in Sderot that killed detainees in a police station along with Hamas fighters but I'm not sure if Israel even counts those as civilians.

Huh? What detainees? Can you give any source on this? Detainees are generally not held at police stations, nor can I find a single article mentioning detainees in the context of the Sderot police station.

Helicopter fire is not really false either. Police force simply denied the Haaretz report. Israeli administrative sources have proven to be not reliable sources.

Haaretz listed the police as source, and the police denied it. When your source denies it, you don't have a source. Haaretz is garbage. You'd expect survivors to speak of the helicopter if it was indeed there, yet none have mentioned a helicopter being there. It's about as true as the 40 babies story.

We also know that helicopter fire was involved in destroying cars operated by Hamas fighters with Israeli hostages inside. You're right partially right about fleeing hostages being tied to a different time since we have seen specific cases where it happened. However, the indiscriminate force Israeli authorities decided to use on that day as evident from the specific cases we have seen its obvious that many got hurt. So on and on. You're right. We do not know the full extent of how many Israeli civilians got hurt by Israeli fire. It's highly likely that its much more than the few cases Israel itself had to confirm due to publicity.

As before, we've still only established 1 concrete case, and one probable case. You're grasping at straws, and spreading outright lies under the guise of ignorance.

Ah, now you say that you were not talking about sexual assault, even though the post you were quoting the statements you were arguing against was talking about that. Thank you for acknowledging that such videos do not exist. Now, please do tell us why you didn't speak up when Coughdrop addict claimed that such videos existed?

Correct, I was not, and I made no referrence to it in the post. You continue to rely on not understanding my posts.
Why didn't I speak up? I didn't even reply to him. Am I obligated to reply to everyone who posts? Lol. Shall I go find a random post on this thread and call you out for not replying to it?

Its just your attempt to dilute the discussion to hide behind such accusatory terms that has no relation to what we're discussing. It's a testament to your failure to stand by your claims, nothing more.

It's an observation on the kind of tactics you stoop down to using.

[PointOfViewGun]

A rather impressive feat considering there were only 12 hostages in the house, and that we know from interviews with survivors that at least 2 of those had been killed earlier during a firefight. At most, the tank killed 10.
You can't just accuse me of being inaccurate with numbers in an earlier post and then fumble every figure you give.

Please do link to those interviews. Survivor from the carnage, Hadas Dagan, does not speak of Hamas burning the house or killing hostages. She speaks of the barrages Israeli forces unleashed on the house. The other survivor, Yasmin Porat, too tells that hostages were alive before Israelis started firing, that Hamas treated them humanely. She also talks of 5-6 residents shot outside the house in an exchange of fire not shot by Hamas. When you actually listen to these survivor accounts you realize that the carnage caused by Israeli forces were much more extensive.

Correct, because Hamas set the houses on fire. There are videos of them setting houses on fire, so don't try to deny it.

Tank fire tend to do that too. The video footage of the tank fire on the house taken from a helicopter does not show the tank firing at a burning building (no flames or smoke appear whatsoever). The survivors of that house don't talk about a fire either.

Hannibal directive was not issued. It's also an illegal order, that soldiers are obliged not to follow. The only person who authorized Hannibal was the man who ordered the tank to fire on the house in the singular example you've mentioned.

What's the point of claiming that the Hannibal Directive was not issued only to give an example of where it was issued? Your responses lost all sense of logic.

Huh? What detainees? Can you give any source on this? Detainees are generally not held at police stations, nor can I find a single article mentioning detainees in the context of the Sderot police station.

Basically anyone left inside. A police station would very well hold detainees as is the common practice. That day, however, it also held people fleeing the fighting. God know who was inside.

Two friends, one living in Chicago area, mourn their hometown in Israel after attack

The police station in Sderot was destroyed by Israeli tank fire after Hamas terrorists stormed it – killing the police officers inside.

There is also the case of trigger happy or scared security forces shooting Israelis mistaking them for Hamas fighters.

Haaretz listed the police as source, and the police denied it. When your source denies it, you don't have a source. Haaretz is garbage. You'd expect survivors to speak of the helicopter if it was indeed there, yet none have mentioned a helicopter being there. It's about as true as the 40 babies story.

Haaretz listing a police source and an official statement from the police denying it are quite different things. We know for a fact that helicopters targeted vehicles going towards Gaza and causing casualties among Israelis themselves. I haven't seen survivors of those speaking up about it as well. If I didn't see the tree fall in the forest, did it not fall?

Correct, I was not, and I made no referrence to it in the post. You continue to rely on not understanding my posts.

You did reference it by responding to a post specifically about that and by referring to what I pointed out directly. You did this a number of times now. You make a claim and then backtrack when you're called out on it. Gets very tedious after a while. You can not cover that up by throwing insults as well.

Why didn't I speak up? I didn't even reply to him. Am I obligated to reply to everyone who posts? Lol. Shall I go find a random post on this thread and call you out for not replying to it?

I didn't say you're obligated to reply to him. I simply asked you why you didn't speak out against him when he made a claim you apparently knew to be false? Our posts were back to back after all.

[Ludicus]

German hypocrisy on freedom of speech found a new target: former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis.

The transcript of the forbidden speech, because it deserves to be read. What else is there to forbid?...

The speech that I could not deliver because German police burst into our Berlin venue to disband our Palestine Congress (1930s style). Judge for yourselves the kind of society Germany is becoming when its police bans the following words:

Friends,
Congratulations, and heartfelt thanks, for being here, despite the threats, despite the ironclad police outside this venue, despite the panoply of the German press, despite the German state, despite the German political system that demonises you for being here.

“Why a Palestinian Congress, Mr Varoufakis?”, a German journalist asked me recently? Because, as Hanan Asrawi once said: “We cannot rely on the silenced to tell us about their suffering.”

Today, Asrawi’s reason has grown depressingly stronger: Because we cannot rely on the silenced who are also massacred and starved to tell us about the massacres and the starvation.

But there is another reason too: Because a proud, a decent people, the people of Germany, are led down a perilous road to a heartless society by being made to associate themselves with another genocide carried out in their name, with their complicity.

I am neither Jewish nor Palestinian. But I am incredibly proud to be here amongst Jews and Palestinians – to blend my voice for Peace and Universal Human Rights with Jewish Voices for Peace and Universal Human Rights – with Palestinian Voices for Peace and Universal Human Rights. Being together, here, today, is proof that Coexistence is Not Only Possible – but that it is here! Already.

“Why not a Jewish Congress, Mr Varoufakis?”, the same German journalist asked me, imagining that he was being smart. I welcomed his question.

For if a single Jew is threatened, anywhere, just because she or he is Jewish, I shall wear the star of David on my lapel and offer my solidarity - whatever the cost, whatever it takes.

So, let’s be clear: If Jews were under attack, anywhere in the world, I would be the first to canvass for a Jewish Congress in which to register our solidarity.

Similarly, when Palestinians are massacred because they are Palestinians – under a dogma that to be dead they must have been Hamas – I shall wear my keffiyeh and offer my solidarity whatever the cost, whatever it takes.

Universal Human Rights are either universal or they mean nothing.

With this in mind, I answered the German journalist’s question with a few of my own:

· Are 2 million Israeli Jews, who were thrown out of their homes and into an open air prison 80 years ago, still being kept in that open air prison, without access to the outside world, with minimal food and water, no chance of a normal life, of travelling anywhere, and bombed periodically for 80 years? No.
· Are Israeli Jews being starved intentionally by an army of occupation, their children writhing on the floor, screaming from hunger? No.
· Are there thousands of Jewish injured children no surviving parents crawling through the rubble of what used to be their homes? No.
· Are Israeli Jews being bombed by the world’s most sophisticated planes and bombs today? No.
· Are Israeli Jews experiencing complete ecocide of what little land they can still call their own, not one tree left under which to seek shade or whose fruit to taste? No.
· Are Israeli Jewish children killed by snipers today at the orders of a member-state of the UN? No.
· Are Israeli Jews driven out of their homes by armed gangs today? No.
· Is Israel fighting for its existence today? No.

If the answer to any of these questions was yes, I would be participating in a Jewish Solidarity Congress today.

Friends,

Today, we would have loved to have a decent, democratic, mutually-respectful debate on how to bring Peace and Universal Human Rights for everyone, Jews and Palestinians, Bedouins and Christians, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea with people who think differently to us.

Sadly, the whole of the German political system has decided not to allow this. In a joint statement including not just the CDU-CSU or the FDP but also the SPD, the Greens and, remarkably, two leaders of Die Linke, joined forces to ensure that such a civilised debate, in which we may disagree agreeably, never takes place in Germany.

I say to them: You want to silence us. To ban us. To demonise us. To accuse us. You, therefore, leave us with no choice but to meet your accusations with our accusations. You chose this. Not us.

· You accuse us of anti-Semitic hatred
o We accuse you of being the antisemite’s best friend by equating the right of Israel to commit war crimes with the right of Israeli Jews to defend themselves.

· You accuse us of supporting terrorism
o We accuse you of equating legitimate resistance to an Apartheid State with atrocities against civilians which I have always and will always condemn, whomever commits them – Palestinians, Jewish Settlers, my own family, whomever.
o We accuse you of not recognising the duty of the people of Gaza to tear down the Wall of the open prison they have been encased in for 80 years – and of equating this act of tearing down the Wall of Shame – which is no more defensible than the Berlin Wall was – with acts of terror.

· You accuse us of trivialising Hamas’ October 7th terror
o We accuse you of trivialising the 80 years of Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and the erection of an ironclad Apartheid system across Israel-Palestine.
o We accuse you of trivialising Netanyahu’s long-term support of Hamas as a means of destroying the 2-State Solution that you claim to favour.
o We accuse you of trivialising the unprecedented terror unleashed by the Israeli army on the people of Gaza, W. Bank and E. Jerusalem.

· You accuse the organisers of today’s Congress that we are, and I quote, “not interested in talking about possibilities for peaceful coexistence in the Middle East against the background of the war in Gaza”. Are you serious? Have you lost your mind?
o We accuse you of supporting a German state that is, after the United States, the largest supplier of the weapons that the Netanyahu government uses to massacre Palestinians as part of a Grand Plan to make a 2-State solution, and peaceful coexistence between Jews and Palestinians, impossible.
o We accuse you of never answering the pertinent question that every German must answer: How much Palestinian blood must flow before your, justified, guilt over the Holocaust is washed away?

So, let’ s be clear: We are here, in Berlin, with our Palestinian Congress because, unlike the German political system and the German media, we condemn genocide and war crimes regardless of who is perpetrating them. Because we oppose Apartheid in the land of Israel-Palestine no matter who has the upper hand – just as we opposed Apartheid in the American South or in South Africa. Because we stand for universal human rights, freedom and equality among Jews, Palestinians, Bedouins and Christians in the Ancient Land of Palestine.

And so that we are even clearer on the questions, legitimate and malignant, that we must always be ready to answer:

Do I condemn Hamas’ atrocities?

I condemn every single atrocity, whomever is the perpetrator or the victim. What I do notcondemn is armed resistance to an Apartheid system designed as part of a slow-burning, but inexorable, ethnic cleansing program. Put differently, I condemn every attack on civilians while, at the same time, I celebrate anyone who risks their life to TEAR DOWN THE WALL.

Is Israel not engaged in a war for its very existence?

No, it is not. Israel is a nuclear-armed state with perhaps the most technologically advanced army in the world and the panoply of the US military machine having its back. There is no symmetry with Hamas, a group which can cause serious damage to Israelis but which has no capacity whatsoever to defeat Israel’s military, or even to prevent Israel from continuing to implement the slow genocide of Palestinians under the system of Apartheid that has been erected with long-standing US and EU support.

Are Israelis not justified to fear that Hamas wants to exterminate them?

Of course they are! Jews have suffered a Holocaust that was preceded with pogroms and a deep-seated antisemitism permeating Europe and the Americas for centuries. It is only natural that Israelis live in fear of a new pogrom if the Israeli army folds. However, by imposing Apartheid on their neighbours, by treating them like sub-humans, the Israeli state is stoking the fires of antisemitism, is strengthening Palestinians and Israelis who just want to annihilate each other and, in the end, contributes to the awful insecurity consuming Jews in Israel and the Diaspora. Apartheid against the Palestinians is the Israelis’ worst self-defence.

What about antisemitism?

It is always a clear and present danger. And it must be eradicated, especially amongst the ranks of the Global Left and the Palestinians fighting for Palestinian civil liberties –around the world.

Why don’t Palestinians pursue their objectives by peaceful means?

They did. The PLO recognised Israel and renounced armed struggle. And what did they get for it? Absolute humiliation and systematic ethnic cleansing. That is what nurtured Hamas and elevated it the eyes of many Palestinians as the only alternative to a slow genocide under Israel’s Apartheid.

What should be done now? What might bring Peace to Israel-Palestine?

· An immediate ceasefire.
· The release of all hostages: Hamas’ and the thousands held by Israel.
· A Peace Process, under the UN, supported by a commitment by the International Community to end Apartheid and to safeguard Equal Civil Liberties for All.
· As for what must replace Apartheid, it is up to Israelis and Palestinians to decide between the 2-state solution and the solution of a Single Federal Secular State.

Friends,

We are here because vengeance is a lazy form of grief.

We are here to promote not vengeance but Peace and Coexistence across Israel-Palestine.

We are here to tell German democrats, including our former comrades of Die Linke, that they have covered themselves in shame long enough – that two wrongs do not one right make – that allowing Israel to get away with war crimes is not going to ameliorate the legacy of Germany’s crimes against the Jewish People.

Beyond today’s Congress, we have a duty, in Germany, to change the conversation. We have a duty to persuade the vast majority of decent Germans out there that universal human rights is what matters. That Never Again means Never Again. For anyone, Jew, Palestinian, Ukrainian, Russian, Yemeni, Sudanese, Rwandan – for everyone, everywhere...

--
Israel genocidal war on Gaza meets American cynicism in Palestine:US 'accepts' Rafah invasion

World Press Photo of the Year

[Alastor]

The transcript of the forbidden speech, because it deserves to be read. What else is there to forbid?...

That's the forbidden speech? Holy cow, it's a good thing we here in the west haven't lost sight of our values and respect principles like freedom of speech etc etc.

[mishkin]

That's the forbidden speech? Holy cow, it's a good thing we here in the west haven't lost sight of our values and respect principles like freedom of speech etc etc.

You know that Germany specifically has a special relationship with Israel and anti-Semitism.

[Alastor]

You know that Germany specifically has a special relationship with Israel and anti-Semitism.

I suppose "special relationships" trump our so called western values. Then again the USA has been showcasing this for so long with their UN conduct when it comes to Israel. So yeah, not a surprise.

[mishkin]

Do I have to mention nazism? (###, I just did it).

It is very easy to attack the morality of any government regarding its foreign policy, and I cannot think of any "moral" country right now. I am fortunate that the government of my country is currently leading a campaign (which will be slow and possibly not fruitful) for the Palestinian state to be recognized in Europe, something that we de facto did ten years ago and that will be official in a few months. I recommend that you campaign in your country to do the same and vote for political parties that support Palestine. It's all we can do, much more useful than making fun of something as generic and usually laughable, yes, as the values of any society.

Spain to recognise Palestinian statehood by July, leader says

[Alastor]

Do I have to mention nazism? (###, I just did it).

It is very easy to attack the morality of any government regarding its foreign policy, and I cannot think of any "moral" country right now. I am fortunate that the government of my country is currently leading a campaign (which will be slow and possibly not fruitful) for the Palestinian state to be recognized in Europe, something that we de facto did ten years ago and that will be official in a few months. I recommend that you campaign in your country to do the same and vote for political parties that support Palestine. It's all we can do, much more useful than making fun of something as generic and usually laughable, yes, as the values of any society.

Spain to recognise Palestinian statehood by July, leader says

I appreciate your optimism but I don't believe our democratic system is functional enough for such change to happen anyway. There is an unbridgeable divide between the leadership of states and the wants of the people, including in so called liberal republics. That's a systemic failure no amount of voting is going to fix. Better than nothing you may argue, no more than nothing I will counter.

As for the statement that there is no "moral" country that is certainly true. States have one imperative, survival, to achieve that they seek power maximisation and that's basically done at all costs. The only thing that can restrain them is the power of another state. The problem isn't that. The problem is that we do have a number of states that seem to successfully pretend they are the good guys here in the west and for internal consumption. That's what I am making fun of, the fact so many people believe in all those fairy tales, despite blatant evidence to the opposite. If those states were good, why isn't their conduct informed by this goodness at all? By castigating and highlighting this discrepancy, perhaps they would rethink their stances, but as I said, why would they? When so many of those that are supposedly checking them already believe them.

You see the illusion is important and needs reinforcement. Those restraints are codified in international law and for that to be acceptable it largely needs to be informed by morality, a sense of fairness. The fact we are allowing Israel to make a mockery of our morality is simply a stark reminder of the flimsy grounds upon which the whole international legal system is built. Israel is a threat to this world order because it makes our hypocrisy so obvious. Even if locally the governments can push their lies, we are getting closer and closer to a threshold moment.

To put it in as simple terms as possible, if somewhat reductive too, at this rate, how soon before the UN becomes the League of Nations?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Please do link to those interviews. Survivor from the carnage, Hadas Dagan, does not speak of Hamas burning the house or killing hostages. She speaks of the barrages Israeli forces unleashed on the house. The other survivor, Yasmin Porat, too tells that hostages were alive before Israelis started firing, that Hamas treated them humanely. She also talks of 5-6 residents shot outside the house in an exchange of fire not shot by Hamas. When you actually listen to these survivor accounts you realize that the carnage caused by Israeli forces were much more extensive.

The new york times article mentions it, but then so do you when you say 5-6 were shot outside the house, so I'm not sure why you're asking for a source.
She doesn't actually say that they weren't killed by Hamas fire, she says they got caught in the middle.
It's funny how you continue trying to argue how humane they were, when they came to kidnap civilians (a warcrime), and then placed them as human shields between themselves and IDF forces. What noble knights in shining armour.

These specific survivors were meant to be kidnapped, not killed, so yes there wasn't as much carnage. Well, if you ignore the fact they were kept next to the dead body of one of the locals who was shot by Hamas while holding a door closed.

Tank fire tend to do that too. The video footage of the tank fire on the house taken from a helicopter does not show the tank firing at a burning building (no flames or smoke appear whatsoever). The survivors of that house don't talk about a fire either.

I thought you were referring to victims in general, not just this one case. My bad.
See, when I notice I made a mistake I admit it, rather than deflect.

What's the point of claiming that the Hannibal Directive was not issued only to give an example of where it was issued? Your responses lost all sense of logic.

Sigh. Let's explain the obvious meaning: no general order of the sort was given. Only one singular case.

Basically anyone left inside. A police station would very well hold detainees as is the common practice. That day, however, it also held people fleeing the fighting. God know who was inside.

Two friends, one living in Chicago area, mourn their hometown in Israel after attack


There is also the case of trigger happy or scared security forces shooting Israelis mistaking them for Hamas fighters.

Okay, so hostages not detainees.
Other than this article, which doesn't source the claim, I can find no mention of anyone being held alive in the police station at the time. Hamas forces didn't enter Sderot to kidnap, but to kill. Not a single person from Sderot was taken to Gaza. Actually I think you're misinterpreting it. When it says 'The police station in Sderot was destroyed by Israeli tank fire after Hamas terrorists stormed it – killing the police officers inside', it means that the Hamas terrorists who stormed it killed the officers inside.
The article is also just bad frankly. It alternates between calling Sderot a town and a village (Sderot is a city, in fact), claims Sderot was reduced to rubble (huh?), and claims that the airstrikes on Gaza are coming from Sderot (there's no airfield in Sderot).

Haaretz listing a police source and an official statement from the police denying it are quite different things. We know for a fact that helicopters targeted vehicles going towards Gaza and causing casualties among Israelis themselves. I haven't seen survivors of those speaking up about it as well. If I didn't see the tree fall in the forest, did it not fall?

There was actually an interview of a woman who was kidnapped, but then a helicopter killed the drivers and she escaped. You'd have to translate to English, but it's there.
Meanwhile, from the thousands of people who were at the Nova festival, none reported a helicopter shooting? Curious.

You did reference it by responding to a post specifically about that and by referring to what I pointed out directly. You did this a number of times now. You make a claim and then backtrack when you're called out on it. Gets very tedious after a while. You can not cover that up by throwing insults as well.

The post wasn't 'specifically about that', it was one of multiple things mentioned in it.
I did refer to what you pointed out directly, which wasn't the sexual assault video's claim.
I did not backtrack any claim. You pretend like I've made a claim I haven't made, and then you attack it. I believe that's called a strawman.

I didn't say you're obligated to reply to him. I simply asked you why you didn't speak out against him when he made a claim you apparently knew to be false? Our posts were back to back after all.

I was having a discussion with you, and did not feel like engaging in another at the time. Why do I need to justify not replying to something not addressed at me?